Goring Gap/AONBs and Electrification of the GWML

[6Gman]

Dear Who Cares,

Have you ever considered being a little more stoical? You know, taking one for team GB. Other people have much worse to look at. Some people have a view of a power station so you can watch television. Others have a view of an oil refinery so that you can drive your car. You'll have a view of an electrified railway rather than an unelectrified one. It's not that much of an imposition and the railway will be all the better for it.

I've got the WCML across a couple of fields from me.

No problem.

Despite the late 50s/ early 60s gantries!

 

[Who Cares]

PHILIP

Many Thanks for your very clear and very civilised reply….

Regarding the FOI – I’ll need to get in touch with the UK for the details but my contact there is currently sunning himself in Sth Africa watching the cricket and then I’ll be leaving for my own holidays before he returns….I’ll leave a message, but it may take a month or so….

Your last couple of paragraphs summarise the situation absolutely correctly –

Nobody ( residents and AsONB ) actually objects to electrification – just the current design and galvanised steel finish, especially on the Gatehampton and Moulsford viaducts and the South Stoke embankment….

You’re correct – it would be David v Goliath and only the fat cat lawyers will benefit if it does go to court, and which nobody wants except, of course, the lawyers….But if it has to be done, it most likely will be despite fingers being crossed that the Fat Cats won’t have an opportunity to get even fatter…

And compromise is what was required from the beginning – consultation and mutual agreement on mitigation involving screening where possible and practicable, and, in particular, painted / coated OLE before the installation work started, and these problems wouldn’t have arisen in the first place….

I won’t be at the Consultations which should start this month, of course, but as you’re close to the Project, maybe go listen yourself to the concerns and argument from the other side and not just from me and what I post on here….

 

[w1bbl3]

You are presumably aware that db is logarithmic scale so a reduction of 3db is in fact a 50% reduction and hence rather noticable?

3dB is a 50% reduction in power but not a 50% reduction is perceived level, the perceived reduction would be approx 20%, not at all bad but likely not to be noticeable. You'd need a 10dB reduction for it to be generally perceptible.

However I'm curious as to the report that stated a 3dB reduction as the figure seems somewhat arbitrary, anyone care to offer a link?

I'd would have expected a straight HST power car to IEP electric only noise comparison to have shown a significant and perceptible noise reduction as the traction package should be virtually silent leaving only wind and rail/wheel interface noise, at distance these would likely attenuate to imperceptible levels..

At what distance from lineside is the reduction measured, is from a static source (stationary train) or a moving train, is it taking average sound levels pre electrification and calculating a new average sound level post electrification so that the residual diesel running and higher intensity of usage should still be factored?

And compromise is what was required from the beginning – consultation and mutual agreement on mitigation involving screening where possible and practicable, and, in particular, painted / coated OLE before the installation work started, and these problems wouldn’t have arisen in the first place….

If the ultimate issue is the finish of the steelwork has at any point anyone provided samples at various ages e.g. new, 1yr, 2yrs, 5yrs and 10yrs to show how glavanised steel changes in colour quite considerably going from shiny, shiny to gaining a whitening as the initial zinc oxidation occurs before then darkening off it should/will ultimately end up the colour of a traditional gray roof slate.

 

[mewstone]

w1bbl3 wrote "If the ultimate issue is the finish of the steelwork has at any point anyone provided samples at various ages e.g. new, 1yr, 2yrs, 5yrs and 10yrs to show how glavanised steel changes in colour quite considerably going from shiny, shiny to gaining a whitening as the initial zinc oxidation occurs before then darkening off it should/will ultimately end up the colour of a traditional gray roof slate."

In the long term it might be better to wait and let the galvanised finish weather naturally, than to paint them. Painting could result in an additional maintenance liability in that they will need to be painted again over their lifetime. If they are not repainted faded and peeling paintwork could make them look far worse than the naturally weathered galvanised surface, which should not require repainting. Just a thought!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

w1bbl3 wrote "If the ultimate issue is the finish of the steelwork has at any point anyone provided samples at various ages e.g. new, 1yr, 2yrs, 5yrs and 10yrs to show how glavanised steel changes in colour quite considerably going from shiny, shiny to gaining a whitening as the initial zinc oxidation occurs before then darkening off it should/will ultimately end up the colour of a traditional gray roof slate."

In the long term it might be better to wait and let the galvanised finish weather naturally, than to paint them. Painting could result in an additional maintenance liability in that they will need to be painted again over their lifetime. If they are not repainted faded and peeling paintwork could make them look far worse than the naturally weathered galvanised surface, which should not require repainting. Just a thought!

Problem is that weathered Galv is even more difficult to paint. You need to start with an etch primer - and then onwards. It is the products of cathodic protection that make adhesion a real beatttcchhh.

 

[Who Cares]

WiBBL3

The question about dbs....

I can't provide the link as I downloaded the file without saving the link....

However, the -3db is stated in the Atkins / NR Environmental Statement 1A dated October 2012, reference 2.2.9 and was repeated during questions / answers, I was told, at the 'Drop In Meeting ' which was held in South Stoke in November 2015, the question having been asked for the reason you point out....

 

[hwl]

WiBBL3

The question about dbs....

I can't provide the link as I downloaded the file without saving the link....

However, the -3db is stated in the Atkins / NR Environmental Statement 1A dated October 2012, reference 2.2.9 and was repeated during questions / answers, I was told, at the 'Drop In Meeting ' which was held in South Stoke in November 2015, the question having been asked for the reason you point out....

-3db seems to be a fairly "standard" noise reduction figure also required in the new European standards for tyre noise reduction (to get top A rating)

 

[hassaanhc]

At Southall, passing 332s are noticeably quieter than the 165, 166, 180 and HST stock. Even more of a difference at West Ealing when I was there briefly yesterday; the only HST that passed in those few minutes was still accelerating hard, as was 166208 after calling at Ealing Broadway. Biggest noise difference between Classes 165/166 and 360 is when moving off from a stand; forget having any conversation within vicinity of the DMUs!

 

[w1bbl3]

WiBBL3

The question about dbs....

I can't provide the link as I downloaded the file without saving the link....

However, the -3db is stated in the Atkins / NR Environmental Statement 1A dated October 2012, reference 2.2.9 and was repeated during questions / answers, I was told, at the 'Drop In Meeting ' which was held in South Stoke in November 2015, the question having been asked for the reason you point out....

Thank you that's all I needed. The figure is thus stated "Station ambience would be improved as electric trains are quieter than diesel trains (approximately 3dB [3], [4])."
Reference 3 is "Based on Calculation of Railway Noise (CRN) for Pendolino EMU of +10.7dB versus Voyager DMU of +13.8dB".

So okay this is a general statement made using the complex CRN methodology which factors in most railway related things but is stated as two positive figures thus indicating the report is talking about the noise level above ambient. Yes a 3dB reduction in dB LAeq is significant, also as the base comparator a Voyager DMU is quieter than a HST/HST power car the figure is in effect understating the reduction.

Problem is that weathered Galv is even more difficult to paint. You need to start with an etch primer - and then onwards. It is the products of cathodic protection that make adhesion a real beatttcchhh.

Painting weathered glav is kind of pointless as even with a etch primer you are still not going to get the paint to stick for any meaningful life to first maintenance. To get a good key you really are going to need to blast clean the steels before then using etch or better still a suitable glass flake epoxy, but then you are going to reduce the effective life of the glavanising in the process.

To achieve a decent life say 15yr+ life on the paint coating you'd be best off to replace the steelwork with new (shop) prepainted pieces and use the old pieces elsewhere.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Painting weathered glav is kind of pointless as even with a etch primer you are still not going to get the paint to stick for any meaningful life to first maintenance. To get a good key you really are going to need to blast clean the steels before then using etch or better still a suitable glass flake epoxy, but then you are going to reduce the effective life of the glavanising in the process.

To achieve a decent life say 15yr+ life on the paint coating you'd be best off to replace the steelwork with new (shop) prepainted pieces and use the old pieces elsewhere.

I agree - not easy at all. I was wondering if (like they do on ships hulls) welding a sacrificial anode to each mast would prolong the life - say a piece of galvalum? Aluminium alloy would last longest and have high capacity. On land because there is higher resistance a magnesium alloy is better because of the higher driving voltage. Zinc is ubiquitous. I am not sure what I would use.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

To achieve a decent life say 15yr+ life on the paint coating you'd be best off to replace the steelwork with new (shop) prepainted pieces and use the old pieces elsewhere.

If anything is done with painted steelwork, which I strongly doubt judging by recent conversations, it'll have to be after the project is completed, with replacement work slotting into routine maintenance possessions.

There's unlikely to be manpower or assets available to undertake replacement works for anything already installed until post completion.

I've had a look at paint colours in Adobe Photoshop, and I'm starting to think they look worse when painted, depending on angle.

 

[route:oxford]

Why bother painting them?

Could easily sleeve them instead. Use sectional material that is will not damage the overheads if delberately or accidently allowed to go free.

That way advertising material can be put on the posts too.

It's unlikely that anyone would complain about that, there was delight when a far more beautiful view was enhanced with advertisements recently...

 

[Trog]

Be careful what you wish for when the OHL masts at the south end of the WCML were repainted, it was done in two coats a yellow Zinc Chromate? under coat and a grey top coat. In some places the grey paint washed or flaked off leaving the yellow undercoat showing. The best thing to do on the GWML is probably nothing a couple of years of dirt will tone the new masts down no end.

 

[Tw99]

Be careful what you wish for when the OHL masts at the south end of the WCML were repainted, it was done in two coats a yellow Zinc Chromate? under coat and a grey top coat. In some places the grey paint washed or flaked off leaving the yellow undercoat showing. The best thing to do on the GWML is probably nothing a couple of years of dirt will tone the new masts down no end.

The ones we can see from here (couple of miles east of the Hallowed Gap) have been up for a year or so, and they already look much duller than the new ones that are going up near Reading.

 

[ole17]

I was wondering if (like they do on ships hulls) welding a sacrificial anode to each mast would prolong the life - say a piece of galvalum? Aluminium alloy would last longest and have high capacity. On land because there is higher resistance a magnesium alloy is better because of the higher driving voltage. Zinc is ubiquitous.

Good idea in theory, bad idea in practice. Sacrificial anodes work with ships because an electrical current can flow in a circuit between the hull's iron and the anode, and through the sea water. Whereas with current masts, you can wire up a 'chunk' of magnesium to it and almost no current will flow between them through the soil, hence offering I would believe little protection. If the mast is not touching the wet soil, why bother with this method of protection? Steel in wet soil may rust even faster. This may be why I have never seen anyone in the world trying out this idea.

It would be a pain for Network Rail to bother putting up expensive contracts for such kind of work. Better to stick with galvanisation, a much more well known method of protection for steel. Galvanised steel, even with its rusty appearance, should last at least 40 years.

 

[QueensCurve]

Dear Who Cares,

Have you ever considered being a little more stoical? You know, taking one for team GB. Other people have much worse to look at. Some people have a view of a power station so you can watch television. Others have a view of an oil refinery so that you can drive your car. You'll have a view of an electrified railway rather than an unelectrified one. It's not that much of an imposition and the railway will be all the better for it.

I tend to think that an electrified railway looks complete in contrast to the nakedness of original.

I don't understand why the GWML Masts extend so far above the gantry and seem to be of randomly differing height. It rather spoils the look. Is this a permanent feature or will they be trimmed back to make them uniform when complete?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That way advertising material can be put on the posts too.

It's unlikely that anyone would complain about that, there was delight when a far more beautiful view was enhanced with advertisements recently...

I don't share your enthusiasm for that view.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I don't understand why the GWML Masts extend so far above the gantry and seem to be of randomly differing height. It rather spoils the look. Is this a permanent feature or will they be trimmed back to make them uniform when complete?

It's permanent, and it's for the AT cabling to be installed in a position of safety for earthing purposes.

 

[swt_passenger]

To expand 'AT cabling' (if QueensCurve is not already aware), the AT in the previous post refers to the Autotransformer Feeder cable, which is a second anti-phase 25 kV supply, with respect to the OHLE, this means power transmission is at 50 kV, reducing losses with distance. Hence it must have the same insulation levels and separation from the rest of the structure as the OHLE catenary.

There are probably pictures earlier in the thread somewhere, but the manufacturer's website shows the basic setup for cantilevers, gantry extension height will be similar: http://www.furrerfrey.ch/en/systems/Series-1.html#prettyPhoto[promo-gallery]/0/

 

[Philip Phlopp]

To expand 'AT cabling' (if QueensCurve is not already aware), the AT in the previous post refers to the Autotransformer Feeder cable, which is a second anti-phase 25 kV supply, with respect to the OHLE, this means power transmission is at 50 kV, reducing losses with distance. Hence it must have the same insulation levels and separation from the rest of the structure as the OHLE catenary.

There are probably pictures earlier in the thread somewhere, but the manufacturer's website shows the basic setup for cantilevers, gantry extension height will be similar: http://www.furrerfrey.ch/en/systems/Series-1.html#prettyPhoto[promo-gallery]/0/

The AT cable, as you say, needs the same insulation levels and separation from the rest of the structure as the rest of the contact wire/catenary wire/dropper assembly, but because it's out of phase with the catenary, the AT cable needs to be in a position where an insulator failure won't allow the cable to drop and contact the catenary wiring, as that can cause damage to trains in the section and other connected equipment.

 

[Chris125]

Weathering steel might be worth considering - Denmark has been using COR-TEN quite widely and some might see it as a little less jarring.


[DK] MY 1146 - Gudsø by Henrik Meier, on Flickr


[DK] MZ 1459 - Lunderskov by Henrik Meier, on Flickr

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Weathering steel might be worth considering - Denmark has been using COR-TEN quite widely and some might see it as a little less jarring.

Not me

 

[Dixie]

Sorry, but not me either

 

[furnessvale]

Sorry, but not me either

Just looks neglected to me.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Just looks neglected to me.

They will potentially have their uses in future, but one issue with COR-TEN is if the rusting is inconsistent, they just rot rather than developing a proper weather resistant protective coating, and they'll fall over. We've a big enough issue with Mark 3 wiring falling over as it is, without adding to the headache.

I'd like to use them if/when we come to do the S&C, WHL, FNL etc, routes where the line passes through scrub land and the natural landscape is a brown colour. Goring (to my eye) is fine with galvanised.

Looking at images the other day of the custom bridge masts going up along the route, and they're really splendid, looking forward enormously to seeing the mast mounts for Sydney Gardens too.

 

[Chris125]

They will potentially have their uses in future, but one issue with COR-TEN is if the rusting is inconsistent, they just rot rather than developing a proper weather resistant protective coating, and they'll fall over.

There's an interesting IRJ article about it's potential which suggests the Danes have been using it for OLE masts and structures since 1986, so there should be some useful knowledge out there on it's performance.

As for future uses, if the wires reach Dawlish it would be an obvious candidate.

 

[snowball]

Wethering steel is used for a lot of bridge beams nowadays in the UK too.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

There's an interesting IRJ article about it's potential which suggests the Danes have been using it for OLE masts and structures since 1986, so there should be some useful knowledge out there on it's performance.

As for future uses, if the wires reach Dawlish it would be an obvious candidate.

They've got a lot of potential, but using them in the right places is critical.

Dawlish might be a bit of a problem, as COR-TEN can continue to rust continually when exposed to lots of salt water, but as we know Dawlish would have increased maintenance requirements, it might not be a massive problem.

The sea wall at Saltcoats is a good example of the way to wire Dawlish, though I quite like the idea of twin track cantilevers sited at the foot of the cliffs, to make it less conspicuous.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Wethering steel is used for a lot of bridge beams nowadays in the UK too.

They've got a lot of potential, but using them in the right places is critical.

Exactly -I have nothing against it per se - we use quite a lot in the USA and in my company/business.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Network Rail representatives have apparently told Goring Gap residents they're willing to consult on an alternative portal proposal.

That should be interesting, given there's nothing available to consult on...

 

[MancMetro]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-35321340

Network Rail has apologised for building large new gantries in an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty without consulting nearby residents.

Installed near Goring Gap in the Chilterns, they are the latest step in the electrification of the Great Western Railway.

Residents have criticised the gantries for ruining the landscape.

The rail operator met with villagers on Thursday and promised a consultation on alternative designs.
'Absolutely horrible'

The company is undertaking a 10-year modernisation programme on the line at a cost of up to £1.74bn.

This includes upgrades along the section between Reading and Didcot, Oxfordshire.

Goring resident Roy McMillan said: "There was no foreknowledge of the actual design Network Rail has used... it is heavily, heavily over-engineered."

Roy McMillan, chair of South Stoke Parish Council, said there was an "absolute forest" of the new gantries "stretching over in the distance towards Didcot".

He added: "They're absolutely horrible... people see them the whole time, every day of their life".

But Lucy Murfitt, from the Chiltern Conservation Board, said the meeting at the village hall had been positive.

She added: "They've now conceded there's a problem and they're going to look at redesigning and removing them which is fantastic, and they're going to involve us in it and consult the public."

But she said campaigners needed to keep the pressure up because of "significant caveats".

Network Rail said developing new designs was a "complex process" that involved "balancing the need for the designs to be less visually intrusive with requirements around safety, reliability and operational efficiency".

It added: "We apologise to residents for not carrying out the public consultation before the installation of the existing overhead line equipment.

"Going forward we are committed to working with them and other stakeholders on alternative designs."

Surely given how far behind Network Rail are with this project they're not going to seriously consider ripping up those gantries which they've just installed?