Queues for tickets inside Oxford Rd

[Bletchleyite]

LM has a similar set up to Northern

Except for that their stations are more likely to have TVMs. So anyone waiting in that queue is someone who has chosen to pay on board (or perhaps someone who has only cash).

 

[rebmcr]

What other urban system in Europe works like a 1950s tram service in 2015?

The Prague metro+trams spring to mind!

I used the Prague metro once years ago, and I paid at a TVM.

That's my point — Northern use TVMs. I thought you were referring to the lack of contactless.

 

[Starmill]

Many of the passengers should have bought their tickets before travel.

How do you know that then?

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's my point — Northern use TVMs. I thought you were referring to the lack of contactless.

The vast majority of Northern stations do not have TVMs. Most modern European city services use *only* TVMs and have at least one per station, with the rule being "buy before you board, no excuses".

I don't propose ticket office closures, but I certainly do propose at least one TVM at each urban station and Penalty Fares in the urban area.

I do think sales on board from the guard is a failed, outdated system that works only on quiet branch lines and should be abolished in favour of strict buy-before-you-board within the Greater Manchester urban area, keeping it only for rural services. Then the queue on arrival is only for the administration of Penalty Fares and prosecutions, and as everyone in it is by definition in the wrong you can make it as long as you wish.

Note again I don't propose abolishing the guard, merely their revenue function in urban areas of Northern's operation. They would remain in a safety-only role within those boundaries, like on Merseyrail. So no intention of turning this into a DOO debate

 

[northwichcat]

I do think sales on board from the guard is a failed, outdated system that works only on quiet branch lines and should be abolished in favour of strict buy-before-you-board within the Greater Manchester urban area, keeping it only for rural services. Then the queue on arrival is only for the administration of Penalty Fares and prosecutions, and as everyone in it is by definition in the wrong you can make it as long as you wish.

Well based on your idea Hale (Greater Manchester border station) would get more than just it's current part time ticket office for purchasing tickets and penalty fares. However, the 2 stations before it being small villages in Cheshire would still have buy from the conductor operations, meaning if the conductor can't get through or doesn't have a working machine you could get people from Hale saying they boarded at Ashley or Mobberley with no opportunity to pay to avoid a penalty fare.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well based on your idea Hale (Greater Manchester border station) would get more than just it's current part time ticket office for purchasing tickets and penalty fares. However, the 2 stations before it being small villages in Cheshire would still have buy from the conductor operations, meaning if the conductor can't get through or doesn't have a working machine you could get people from Hale saying they boarded at Ashley or Mobberley with no opportunity to pay to avoid a penalty fare.

Then you catch them out by periodically sending ticket sales staff to those stations, and PFing or even better prosecuting the liars (clear intent for a RoRA prosecution there).

 

[Starmill]

Well based on your idea Hale (Greater Manchester border station) would get more than just it's current part time ticket office for purchasing tickets and penalty fares. However, the 2 stations before it being small villages in Cheshire would still have buy from the conductor operations, meaning if the conductor can't get through or doesn't have a working machine you could get people from Hale saying they boarded at Ashley or Mobberley with no opportunity to pay to avoid a penalty fare.

It would take a dedicated Fare Evader who knows the rules and what's what at those stations in order to achieve avoidence of a PF. For one, assumi5you manage to collect their fare at Stockport or Piccadilly, they would end up paying more anyway because tickets from Mobverley are, as you know, a bit of a leap up from those from Hale and also there's plenty of evidence there of intent to avoid the fare.

The problem arises if people can both lie about their origin if challenged onboard and exit unimpided at their destination.

But if you boarded at South Greenford and alighted at Castle Bar Park there would not be any ticket purchasing facilities anywhere except for the rare (?) chance an RPI is on the train, who would bot do anything other than sell you a ticket. The idea isn't really new.

 

[northwichcat]

It would take a dedicated Fare Evader who knows the rules and what's what at those stations in order to achieve avoidence of a PF. For one, assumi5you manage to collect their fare at Stockport or Piccadilly, they would end up paying more anyway because tickets from Mobverley are, as you know, a bit of a leap up from those from Hale and also there's plenty of evidence there of intent to avoid the fare.

I don't really want to make it too specific to one line but I imagine a lot of the uncollected fares from Hale currently are only to Altrincham and Navigation Road, so if your roaming ticket inspector turns up at Altrincham and asks for tickets someone from Hale who doesn't have one they have two options:
1. Be honest and say they boarded at Hale and get charged the penalty fare.
2. Don't be honest and say they boarded before Hale and hope they don't get a penalty fare even if they have to pay a higher fare than if they purchased before boarding.

 

[island]

How do you know that then?

Aside from the passengers joining at stations with ticketing facilities, there will also have been people who should have bought season tickets in advance.

This is "should" meaning "in order to have a better experience" rather than "were legally required to" which I would have written explicitly.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

At Victoria on Monday, ticket office sales were around £60k, this compares with, probably, about £15-20k on a regular day. It would be fair to say the majority of new seasons were Monthlies and Weeklies.

Also, for those not familiar with the machines that Guards and Barrier Staff use, only ticket offices can issue Monthly or longer season tickets, or Countycards and Buscard Extras.

I don't understand why you'd renew an Anuual Season today rather than on the 1st? It must be one of the most well-publicised ways to 'save money'.

Not many season ticket holders work between Christmas and New Year. Many of my regular Monthlies went to Weeklies and daily tickets on the run up to Christmas because they didn't want to pay more than they had to.

The 1st was a Friday, fares went up on Saturday (2nd), most people went back to work on Monday (4th). There are some people who work between Christmas and New Year who would have renewed before the 2nd, but the majority would, typically, not make an extra trip to the station just to buy a new season ticket (there may actually be cost in doing so).

For Annual holders it makes no odds what day of the year you buy the season, the idea of saving money before 2nd January is fairly flawed when you consider that you'll still pay the new fare at some point in the next year, but the majority buy Monthlies and it simply is not worth paying for three days you won't use just to save £1 on your ticket (and some fares didn't change).

I think this is what it's about. Unless I'm going to start commuting to Stafford (no thanks!) I wouldn't get an Annual either. I wonder also if it takes a little longer to issue some of these season products e.g. Countycard

Regardless of where you live in the country, an annual ticket is still cheaper than the total of 10 monthlies and three weeklies.

Countycards and Traincards take about three seconds longer due to having to insert ticket stock rather than it hopper feeding.

Whatever the reason, if it's a known phenomenon, surely you would expect TOCs to plan their staffing accordingly.

Northern could have planned for 600 extra staff at Oxford Road, but if only four wanted to do it, four is all you get.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Regardless of where you live in the country, an annual ticket is still cheaper than the total of 10 monthlies and three weeklies.

My point was more that one can achieve similar savings by buying odd-period season tickets, unless one will be using the season ticket to travel at weekends or when they take their annual leave. The advantage of an annual outside the Gold Card area is pretty negligible, but the risk (loss of ticket, loss or change of job, moving home) is not.

 

[Altfish]

I don't really want to make it too specific to one line but I imagine a lot of the uncollected fares from Hale currently are only to Altrincham and Navigation Road, so if your roaming ticket inspector turns up at Altrincham and asks for tickets someone from Hale who doesn't have one they have two options:
1. Be honest and say they boarded at Hale and get charged the penalty fare.
2. Don't be honest and say they boarded before Hale and hope they don't get a penalty fare even if they have to pay a higher fare than if they purchased before boarding.

3. Don't be honest and say they boarded at Navigation Road where there is rarely an opportunity to buy tickets. On the rare occasions that there are roaming ticket sellers at the station they appear to be agency staff who are so poorly trained they give misinformation out and anything beyond a straightforward request takes ages to process. I have seen a queue for tickets which when the train approaches have all pushed passed the ticket seller.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My point was more that one can achieve similar savings by buying odd-period season tickets, unless one will be using the season ticket to travel at weekends or when they take their annual leave. The advantage of an annual outside the Gold Card area is pretty negligible, but the risk (loss of ticket, loss or change of job, moving home) is not.

You can always trade it down to what you would have bought in any of those cases, though. That said, I bet many don't know that.

I think the disincentive is the large payment up front, which is less manageable in areas where season ticket loans are rare and pay is lower.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Northern could have planned for 600 extra staff at Oxford Road, but if only four wanted to do it, four is all you get.

And what machines would these extra staff use to sell tickets from? Once all the windows at the ticket office are open, there isn't an endless supply of Avantix machines either - in fact there is a shortage due to their impending demise.

 

[Clip]

Its probably loads of old people waiting for the clerk to find splits to save them £1.50 on their ticket to blackpool

As a side note there are large amounts of people who do buy their annuals on the first day back at work, on the credit card then pay it off over the years and most Ive spoken to dont care about the discount buying it before hand.

 

[northwichcat]

3. Don't be honest and say they boarded at Navigation Road where there is rarely an opportunity to buy tickets. On the rare occasions that there are roaming ticket sellers at the station they appear to be agency staff who are so poorly trained they give misinformation out and anything beyond a straightforward request takes ages to process. I have seen a queue for tickets which when the train approaches have all pushed passed the ticket seller.

I was basing it on the scenario Neil Williams said where all Greater Manchester stations would have TVMs and be in penalty fare zones, so consequently was presuming the ticket less passengers from Hale were caught alighting at Altrincham by a roaming inspector.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

And what machines would these extra staff use to sell tickets from? Once all the windows at the ticket office are open, there isn't an endless supply of Avantix machines either - in fact there is a shortage due to their impending demise.

True, but it was a reply to a comment about staffing levels.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

True, but it was a reply to a comment about staffing levels.

Yeah I know, sorry, it wasn't aimed at your post. I was on my phone which doesn't like multiple quotes for some reason, and it was aimed mainly at the "there should be lots more staff" type suggestions of solving the problem. Which is fine - except there aren't any machines for them to sell tickets from!

 

[Greenback]

As a side note there are large amounts of people who do buy their annuals on the first day back at work, on the credit card then pay it off over the years and most Ive spoken to dont care about the discount buying it before hand.

I found the same thing in Reading. Those who were buying annual seasons out of their own pocket were far less likely to care about saving a few quid. Many of them didn't think that making a special trip to the station during a holiday period was worth the saving.

 

[Tetchytyke]

most Ive spoken to dont care about the discount buying it before hand.

That doesn't surprise me, as it isn't really a "saving". Assuming you'll be doing the same job/commute for years, you're just delaying the inevitable by buying early.

 

[Chrisyd]

In terms of the savings amount in Manchester, an annual Greater Manchester Travelcard increased by £9.20 from 2015 (£928.60) to 2016 (£937.80).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

In terms of the savings amount in Manchester, an annual Greater Manchester Travelcard increased by £9.20 from 2015 (£928.60) to 2016 (£937.80).

Someone buying a season to start on the 1st January is paying the same as someone who started theirs at the start of December, who is paying the same as someone who started theirs at the beginning of August, who is paying the same as someone who started their season at the end of January. It's not really a saving until you stop buying them.

 

[Greenback]

Everyone stops buying them at some point. In the mind of the user, it's not a weak motivation to possibly save what could easily be a decent amount of money for them by simply buying before the price increases.

It certainly was for me when I was an annual season ticket holder. I didn't buy one at all one year because I decided to try and buy them around bank holidays and annual leave instead. I'm not sure I actually saved any more, but I know I spent a lot more time during that year hanging about the station buying the next ticket!

The following year I again reverted to buying just before prices went up. I realised that I'd be buying at the higher prices the following year, but an awful lot can happen in 12 months, as finally occurred when I was made redundant!