CrossCountry Franchise - 2007

[virgintrain1]

Hi all, I am currently researching the XC franchise and was wondering if anyone knew where I could access the Virgin Rail Group submitted bid or any other of the bids excluding Arriva's

Sorry if a bit of a boring post

Thanks

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

No where. Failed bids are top secret for all franchises.

 

[virgintrain1]

No where. Failed bids are top secret for all franchises.

That will be why I couldn't find it then.
Thanks

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

It's so passenger's don't complain that Arriva's bid is worse than Virgins, which could of used more or longer trains etc. Personally I think these are in the public interest and should be published for all to see and compare. But then we'll see how much the government values money over a well run railway.

 

[Darandio]

It's so passenger's don't complain that Arriva's bid is worse than Virgins, which could of used more or longer trains etc. Personally I think these are in the public interest and should be published for all to see and compare. But then we'll see how much the government values money over a well run railway.

It's got bugger all to do with that.

Bidders pay millions to prepare said bid, these millions are non-refundable. Certain elements of these losing bids may be absolutely fantastic, just not enough to win the overall contest, but may be used in future bids.

Why should these companies pay millions to effectively give away their great ideas?

 

[HH]

It's so passenger's don't complain that Arriva's bid is worse than Virgins, which could of used more or longer trains etc. Personally I think these are in the public interest and should be published for all to see and compare. But then we'll see how much the government values money over a well run railway.

I believe that it's more that the bidders don't want their rivals to steal their best ideas. They'll re-use them in another bid that they might win.

Ninja'd by Darandio!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Virgin also had two goes at renewing their XC franchise.
The first was as preferred bidder (like one of the current direct awards).
Having failed to reach agreement with the SRA, it went to open tender.
They got Birmingham-Scotland added to WC in the XC remapping.

 

[Masbroughlad]

Would you not be able to get details of failed bids as part of a FOI request?

 

[cf111]

Would you not be able to get details of failed bids as part of a FOI request?

The Freedom of Information Act only allows for applications to be made to public sector organisations.

 

[pjnathanail]

No where. Failed bids are top secret for all franchises.

The Freedom of Information Act only allows for applications to be made to public sector organisations.

Would the department for transport keep a copy of such applications?

 

[cf111]

Would the department for transport keep a copy of such applications?

They may well do, however section 43 of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 below would mean they would have to refuse a request to release it:

43 Commercial interests.

(1)Information is exempt information if it constitutes a trade secret.

(2)Information is exempt information if its disclosure under this Act would, or would be likely to, prejudice the commercial interests of any person (including the public authority holding it).

(3)The duty to confirm or deny does not arise if, or to the extent that, compliance with section 1(1)(a) would, or would be likely to, prejudice the interests mentioned in subsection (2).

 

[plcd1]

Would you not be able to get details of failed bids as part of a FOI request?

DfT would apply the "commercially confidential" provision and refuse release. If it were possible to get the info via FOI all the bidding companies would submit requests for their rivals after each tender round was complete so they could see the approaches used. While rail enthusiasts might like to read the info there would be significant risks to the commercial integrity of future franchise bids and the taxpayer's interest would be at risk.

 

[matt_world2004]

how can the dft be scrutinised. if we cannot see the ideas they have turned down as well as the ideas they have accepted.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Never mind, you can always ask again in 2047 once the secrecy limitation clause kicks in!

 

[northwichcat]

Losing bidders sometimes like to leak information about their losing bid as Virgin have done in the past.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Thats like watching that old gameshow 321, "aww, sorry you lost the grand prize, here is what you could have won!"

 

[Minilad]

Losing bidders sometimes like to leak information about their losing bid as Virgin have done in the past.

Thats because they just can't stop themselves from telling everyone how wonderful they are and that everything would be so much better with them in charge!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Bottom line is that Arriva bid for Cross Country at no subsidy - and have achieved that - with essentiallly a similar service pattern (with additions like Brum - Stansted and Cardiff - Nottingham)

Virgin XC had quite a large subsidy from the original bid - and compounded forward via the "Letter agreement" from the SRA. Arriva was therefore (and I cringe to say this) - a result for the taxpayer.

 

[ainsworth74]

Bottom line is that Arriva bid for Cross Country at no subsidy - and have achieved that - with essentiallly a similar service pattern (with additions like Brum - Stansted and Cardiff - Nottingham)

Virgin XC had quite a large subsidy from the original bid - and compounded forward via the "Letter agreement" from the SRA. Arriva was therefore (and I cringe to say this) - a result for the taxpayer.

Though haven't they managed the 'no subsidy' portion of their bid only in the last year or two?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Though haven't they managed the 'no subsidy' portion of their bid only in the last year or two?

I think that is the case .......

 

[ainsworth74]

I think that is the case .......

Don't suppose you or anyone else know if that was what the plan was in their bid that it would be almost at the end before they managed it?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Don't suppose you or anyone else know if that was what the plan was in their bid that it would be almost at the end before they managed it?

No - no access to that level of detail - but way back when I worked for OPRAF as an Operations Advisor , I went through the original 1996 year bids and was genuinely surprised how loss making the old BR XC workings were - and Virgin clearly made a very good punt for the franchise.

You could argue that Arriva made a similar - if less dramatic offer which on the whole seems to have delivered well - certainly , they do not seem to be in the news for what is quite a tricky operation. (the complexities of weekend operations with so much engineering work has made me deeply appreciative of their short term planning team)

 

[ainsworth74]

You could argue that Arriva made a similar - if less dramatic offer which on the whole seems to have delivered well - certainly , they do not seem to be in the news for what is quite a tricky operation. (the complexities of weekend operations with so much engineering work has made me deeply appreciative of their short term planning team)

I would agree. There are problems with capacity that's absolutely certain but operationally it's a very slick and impressive operation in my opinion.

 

[backontrack]

It's got bugger all to do with that.

Bidders pay millions to prepare said bid, these millions are non-refundable. Certain elements of these losing bids may be absolutely fantastic, just not enough to win the overall contest, but may be used in future bids.

Why should these companies pay millions to effectively give away their great ideas?

I believe that it's more that the bidders don't want their rivals to steal their best ideas. They'll re-use them in another bid that they might win.

Ninja'd by Darandio!

It's a shame that the public isn't prioritised over competition and money. :roll: