TPE franchise awarded to First

[Class 170101]

I'd do it the other way round - demand to Edinburgh is much higher.

The Liverpool arrival at Preston would have to arrive second after the Manchester portion as the franchise commitment I understood was for a Liverpool to Glasgow service.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'd do it the other way round - demand to Edinburgh is much higher.

But Manchester is also getting an hourly service to Edinburgh via the ECML, although about 30min slower than via Carlisle.
It might go to something like 18tpd to Edinburgh and 8tpd to Glasgow, versus 6/6 today.
In some hours there will be 2 Edinburgh trains, though not from the same station.

 

[WatcherZero]

Wouldn't say Airport platform lengthening is totally out of the question. Two things going for it.

Firstly the station was designed with the potential for a tunnel for proposed line extension under the airport to Northwich. In CP4 this was being talked about as a CP6 scheme.

Secondly First are pumping a lot of station investment into this particular station already in the next franchise. A new ticket office, remodelled waiting rooms and added retail units meaning its already being substantially remodelled.

 

[northwichcat]

But Manchester is also getting an hourly service to Edinburgh via the ECML, although about 30min slower than via Carlisle.

I seem to recall in the consultation document the bit about more demand for Edinburgh than Glasgow didn't just apply to Manchester but applied to Preston, Lancaster and possibly some stations in Cumbria as well.

 

[jimm]

Wouldn't say Airport platform lengthening is totally out of the question. Two things going for it.

Firstly the station was designed with the potential for a tunnel for proposed line extension under the airport to Northwich. In CP4 this was being talked about as a CP6 scheme.

Secondly First are pumping a lot of station investment into this particular station already in the next franchise. A new ticket office, remodelled waiting rooms and added retail units meaning its already being substantially remodelled.

But realistically, are there any services that are actually going to need/justify 600-plus seats all the way out to the airport? I have my doubts. If there are services that do need lots of seats for the TPE core section, it will probably be easier to add/drop of a set at one of the central stations in Manchester rather than send a lot of empty seats to the airport and back.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Wouldn't say Airport platform lengthening is totally out of the question. Two things going for it.

Firstly the station was designed with the potential for a tunnel for proposed line extension under the airport to Northwich. In CP4 this was being talked about as a CP6 scheme.

Secondly First are pumping a lot of station investment into this particular station already in the next franchise. A new ticket office, remodelled waiting rooms and added retail units meaning its already being substantially remodelled.

These don't address the problem of the limited platform lengths through Manchester though.

The Airport tunnel is on hold, I believe, as it would have to be designed alongside the HS2 works. The planned route from the other side of the Airport tarmac to the Mid-Cheshire line is effectively the same one that the Manchester HS2 spur will follow. The tunnel is likely to go ahead given that it would connect George Osborne's constituency to the Airport City development. However, even then I don't see the value of extending platforms by any real measure, as HS2 would provide the onward connections to Crewe and the ICWC network.

 

[Nym]

But realistically, are there any services that are actually going to need/justify 600-plus seats all the way out to the airport? I have my doubts. If there are services that do need lots of seats for the TPE core section, it will probably be easier to add/drop of a set at one of the central stations in Manchester rather than send a lot of empty seats to the airport and back.

Dumb question moment here, but where would you plan to drop off these extra cars?

 

[Haydn1971]

Dumb question moment here, but where would you plan to drop off these extra cars?

Ordsall curve option 78 ?

 

[Class 170101]

It's not aimed at Liverpool-Edinburgh passengers. It's aimed at regional journeys, and then connecting Liverpool/Manchester and Yorkshire/Newcastle and Edinburgh to Newcastle/Yorkshire.

XC and VTEC are not providing adequate Leeds-Edinburgh capacity (it's actually pathetic). Any additional competition will reduce prices, so is positive. Currently VTEC don't feel they need to compete with TPE or XC on price in the North East as their trains are packed so people choose VTEC for a nicer journey.

Good point although I reckon that FTPE would explore introducing tilt enabled 125 mph stock given the infrastructure is already there.



There is going to be a new service to Newcastle from Leeds and Manchester bringing the total up to 2 per hour which should significantly help capacity.

Given that Alliance GNER are looking to also introduce another service between Newcastle and Edinburgh and VTEC I reckon that the trains will end up carting fresh air about after a while.

The next question is how do those paths affect the desired paths of VTEC, Alliance and First? Id wager that parts of those are mutually exclusive.

You'd have to assume so, but if they have all decided on 125 mph units of some sort, shouldn't they be able to flight the services in the same way the WCML(S) operates?

Is there actually a demand for 4tph York-Newcastle-Edinburgh?
It will eventually be 2xVTEC, 1xXC and 1xTP.
It also provides a direct service from Huddersfield to Edinburgh and doubles Leeds-Edinburgh.
But I'm wondering if this is not more about making a "nice map" for TPE services than actual demand.

Having used the 0710 VTEC Leeds-Edinburgh (Aberdeen), I believe there is a strong market for an improved Leeds-Edinburgh service (and more direct Leeds-Newcastle services), so I think it will do well. And the added competition is healthy.

Just one question here. I believe I read elsewhere on this board (and I now can't find it) that there isn't the track capacity for all the services requested on the ECML north of Newcastle where does this leave Transpennine's service between Newcastle and Edinburgh now?

EDIT now found it Hendy review page 18 advises the following paragraph

]Network Rail has received proposals from three different train operators for the specific train services that will make use of the enhanced infrastructure. Capacity does not exist for all the proposals to be accepted and the three proposals are currently being considered by the ORR.

 

[Iskra]

Just one question here. I believe I read elsewhere on this board (and I now can't find it) that there isn't the track capacity for all the services requested on the ECML north of Newcastle where does this leave Transpennine's service between Newcastle and Edinburgh now?

Presumably TPE's service is already accounted for in Network Rails' plans. There is also at least one extant spare Edinburgh-London fast path as a couple of open access operators are currently vying for one. Rail freight is apparently also in decline so that may free up more paths.

 

[CAF397]

The Liverpool arrival at Preston would have to arrive second after the Manchester portion as the franchise commitment I understood was for a Liverpool to Glasgow service.

It was actually Liverpool to Carllisle that was specified (for services from Liverpool)

"Liverpool-Preston via St Helens Central or St Helens Junction (being part of a direct service that extends at least to Carlisle)."

There was also a stipulation about extra services from Carlisle to Scotland, which may be an extension of services from Liverpool (and Manchester).

As for portion work, I'm not entirely sure the order of units matters, providing the train continues to the destination. Take the case of Windermere, much of their direct services to Manchester Airport are portion worked, sometimes the u it is at the front, sometimes at the back.

 

[Class 170101]

As for portion work, I'm not entirely sure the order of units matters, providing the train continues to the destination. Take the case of Windermere, much of their direct services to Manchester Airport are portion worked, sometimes the u it is at the front, sometimes at the back.

The set up of the portions was to ensure the few Liverpool services there were meant a passenger could sit on a seat between Liverpool and Glasgow and not move seats on the understanding that the First press releases were referring to direct Liverpool to Glasgow services.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Capacity north of newcastle isnt much of an issue as far as I can see. Most of the london bound capacity problems are to the south of Peterborough, especially through the two track section at Welyn Garden City. AIUI (and could be wrong) Theres only one EC (sometimes two) one XC and one SR/NR path used per hour north of Newcastle along with the freight services. Through Welyn in comparison theres up to 1 GC/HT 5 EC and 4 GN services per hour trying to fit in a very tightly scheduled section, and thats not taking into account any freight paths that may be fitted in.

Disclaimer:- There are no doubt other services I havent mentioned!

 

[NotATrainspott]

Capacity north of newcastle isnt much of an issue as far as I can see. Most of the london bound capacity problems are to the south of Peterborough, especially through the two track section at Welyn Garden City. AIUI (and could be wrong) Theres only one EC (sometimes two) one XC and one SR/NR path used per hour north of Newcastle along with the freight services. Through Welyn in comparison theres up to 1 GC/HT 5 EC and 4 GN services per hour trying to fit in a very tightly scheduled section, and thats not taking into account any freight paths that may be fitted in.

Disclaimer:- There are no doubt other services I havent mentioned!

The restriction is closer to Edinburgh, I believe. There are 100mph ScotRail EMUs on East Lothian commuter duties.

 

[WatcherZero]

First addressed the issue of ECML capacity saying they believed that the superior acceleration of the Bi-Modes compared to stock their replacing would create an extra path.

 

[jimm]

Dumb question moment here, but where would you plan to drop off these extra cars?

Piccadilly - in the terminus platforms but only practical for services routed via Guide Bridge - or Victoria, as the city centre is where most passengers will still be going, not to/from the airport. But I don't plan to do anything. Most TPE services will clearly be five-car, full stop.

 

[northwichcat]

Piccadilly - in the terminus platforms but only practical for services routed via Guide Bridge - or Victoria

Well that will be all of them in the future, the slower services will go to Piccadilly and won't continue beyond there, the faster services will go via Victoria to either Liverpool or the Airport.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Airport tunnel is on hold, I believe, as it would have to be designed alongside the HS2 works. The planned route from the other side of the Airport tarmac to the Mid-Cheshire line is effectively the same one that the Manchester HS2 spur will follow. The tunnel is likely to go ahead given that it would connect George Osborne's constituency to the Airport City development. However, even then I don't see the value of extending platforms by any real measure, as HS2 would provide the onward connections to Crewe and the ICWC network.

The proposed routes for a western link does not conflict with HS2. However, at the moment it seems the Airport are questioning whether it will be needed as they think HS2 can be considered to be an alternative, which doesn't make sense to people in Cheshire and North Wales. There is also the question of what connections will be provided between the HS2 station and the Airport terminals, without one the HS2 station will only be a Park & Ride for HS2 located near the Airport.

George Osborne does seem to be more supportive of what the Airport wants than what his constituents want.

 

[Class 170101]

George Osborne does seem to be more supportive of what the Airport wants than what his constituents want.

Aren't most politicans like that though with regard to business?

 

[Starmill]

Aren't most politicans like that though with regard to business?

Of this one in particular I would expect nothing better.

 

[Philip]

Even during peak hours 5-car trains seems to be enough to me, especially if there's going to be a four-per-hour interval of these. Assuming one first class carriage, the rest standard, that should still result in more standard seats than doubled-up 185s. The main issue could be the door layout, if the doors aren't in a 1/3-2/3 configuration.

 

[northwichcat]

Even during peak hours 5-car trains seems to be enough to me, especially if there's going to be a four-per-hour interval of these. Assuming one first class carriage, the rest standard, that should still result in more standard seats than doubled-up 185s. The main issue could be the door layout, if the doors aren't in a 1/3-2/3 configuration.

Well when the 180s were used on peak time Bolton corridor services (with 8 single doors) they did just as well as the 185s (with 6 double doors but hardly anyone using the set between the cab and FC area) for loading and unloading. In my opinion the main problem won't be the door layout but it will be getting the passengers waiting for the train to not all huddle together expecting a 3 car formation, when it's a 5 car formation.

 

[jimm]

The main issue could be the door layout, if the doors aren't in a 1/3-2/3 configuration.

Door layout is not an issue. If Hitachi get the order then you only have to look at the Class 395 to see they can supply 1/3, 2/3 doors in an AT300-type bodyshell and the latest designs from other manufacturers, such as the Bombardier Aventra, are designed to be pick-and-modular layouts to suit various needs.

 

[Class 170101]

In my opinion the main problem won't be the door layout but it will be getting the passengers waiting for the train to not all huddle together expecting a 3 car formation, when it's a 5 car formation.

Might that depend upon where the station entrance is?

In inclement weather people are hardly likely to spread along the platform if it is not undercover.

 

[northwichcat]

Might that depend upon where the station entrance is?

In inclement weather people are hardly likely to spread along the platform if it is not undercover.

Most of the stations served by the new trains will be large towns and cities with more than 2 platforms and where it's possible to change between different services, so not everyone will be arriving from the same direction.

 

[RoundNewcastle]

Just a quick question.

With the extension of the Manchester Airport - York service to Newcastle at the end of 2017, Will this be 24 Hours to Newcastle? Or will it still terminate at York after the last TPE Departure to Newcastle at 2234 until the early morning? More likely to be York until the new order arrives at least with the York Siemens depot.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

TPE crews womt argue that the 01:50 from Newcastle to Manchester Airport (1P03) was a popular train to work, but it was always wrecked by Darlington from the mess left behind by the drunken patronage that used that service. Such so that TPE didnt deem running that train worth the logistics and hassle it caused, especially when engineering posessions were often in force on the ECML. However a number of TPE and VTEC staff members also used that service to commute to and from work on at both Newcastle and York and probably wouldnt complain if it made a return, unfortunately that seems unlikely

 

[Class 170101]

TPE crews womt argue that the 01:50 from Newcastle to Manchester Airport (1P03) was a popular train to work, but it was always wrecked by Darlington from the mess left behind by the drunken patronage that used that service. Such so that TPE didnt deem running that train worth the logistics and hassle it caused, especially when engineering posessions were often in force on the ECML. However a number of TPE and VTEC staff members also used that service to commute to and from work on at both Newcastle and York and probably wouldnt complain if it made a return, unfortunately that seems unlikely

But why aren't these trains any worse from York, Leeds, Huddersfield or Manchester? Surely if thats the case we shouldn't run any trains after 20:00 daily, earlier on Thursday and Friday nights and nothing on certain routes on Saturdays?

I don't understand why the engineering possessions on the ECML should a hassle? The 22:00 from Kings Cross doesn't arrive at Newcastle until 02:15. SIMBIDs is also available between Northallerton and Newcastle plus four tracks and diversions between York and Newcastle.

 

[northwichcat]

First have appointed their new MD for the next TPE franchise

FirstGroup announces that as part of its plans for the mobilisation of the new TransPennine Express franchise, Leo Goodwin has been appointed as Managing Director designate and will lead the new franchise from the launch date of 1 April.

Leo has held several previous roles within FirstGroup. He joined the Group in 1998, initially working at First Great Western in a range of management positions. After the Group’s successful bid for First TransPennine Express in 2003, Leo was part of the management team and later became Commercial Director, during a period in which the franchise saw industry leading levels of passenger growth and a significant expansion of services. In 2013 Leo moved to become Commercial Development Director at our First Rail division.

As previously announced, Liz Collins remains Interim Managing Director for First/Keolis Transpennine Ltd until the new franchise begins.

Commenting, Steve Montgomery, Managing Director First Rail said:

“I am pleased to announce the appointment of Leo to lead our new TransPennine Express franchise. We have exciting plans to help the Government achieve its vision for a Northern Powerhouse as we connect the North and Scotland and keep people moving and communities prospering across the region.”

Commenting, Leo Goodwin said:

“I am delighted to be given the opportunity to build on the successes that First TransPennine Express achieved over the last 11 years, in which we have more than doubled passenger journeys on the network. We will offer ambitious improvements for passengers. Our new franchise will deliver faster and more frequent intercity train services between the major towns and cities in the North and Scotland as well as investment in new trains with millions more seats available, free Wi-Fi and simpler smart and mobile ticketing.”

http://www.firstgroupplc.com/news-and-media/latest-news/2016/07-01-16.aspx

 

[Haydn1971]

Any rumours about when the actual rolling stock will be announced ?

 

[northwichcat]

Any rumours about when the actual rolling stock will be announced ?

First said in December they would announce more details about their rolling stock in the New Year, so nothing too specific. Maybe they need the solicitors to return from holiday before the contracts can be signed?