TPE franchise awarded to First

[LNW-GW Joint]

Current Fleet
51x3 185
4x2 170
10x4 350
6x2 156
Total 213 carriages or 201 minus the 156 to Northern for transferred Blackpool then you have the muddying of the portion worked with Glasgow 185 Barrow/Windermere services (numbers suggest they consider up to 6 185's as released by transferral of services to Northern).

New fleet mid 2020
44x5 X
28x3 185
total 304

=2/3 larger fleet
= 220 new 84 old = 72.36% new

In my book 2/3 of 213 is 142 so you need 355 for the claimed increase!
In any case we are not comparing apples with apples because of the Blackpool/Cumbria route transfer.

I'm guessing that one TP North route (Manchester-Hull?) will stay 185.
28x185 is too many for TP South, even doubled up.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm guessing that one TP North route (Manchester-Hull?) will stay 185.
28x185 is too many for TP South, even doubled up.

From what I've read I've concluded the North TPE service pattern will be:
* Manchester Airport to Newcastle
* Liverpool to Edinburgh via York
* Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough
* Liverpool to Scarborough
* Manchester Piccadilly to Hull (semi-fast)
* Manchester Piccadilly to Leeds (semi-fast)

With the bottom 2 still being 185 operation.

 

[jimm]

According to First 44 new trains all 5 car length, 12 of them will be pure electric and dedicated to Airport-Scotland runs while the rest will be Bi-Mode and available for North TPE. There isn't any mention of them being lengthenable as with Northerns order so assume rigid 5/10 car 23m formations likely meaning some stations will need platforms lengthening.

Whatever type of train is ordered, I'd suggest a big programme of platform lengthening is unlikely. Most of the principal stations can accommodate a long formation anyway, while any attempt at lengthening at Huddersfield or Manchester Airport will not be straightforward, and these trains are bound to be equipped with selective door operation. How many TPE services are actually likely to be run as 10-car anyway? Maybe a few peak duties to act as queuebusters at the very busiest times of the day but a five-car looks like being the regulation formation most of the time.

As noted in the Class 800 thread, GWR has already settled on an operating procedure for 2x5-car formations of these trains in places where there are short platforms, such as the Cotswolds - and presumably the same goes for the AT300s when they get to Devon and Cornwall - which is to stop the middle part of a formation on the platform so that some doors on both sets can be opened. Neither GWR, Network Rail or the DfT seem to think it is worth spending lots of money on lots of long platforms at places where the overwhelming majority of services calling will still be shorter formations.

 

[backontrack]

From what I've read I've concluded the North TPE service pattern will be:
* Manchester Airport to Newcastle
* Liverpool to Edinburgh via York
* Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough
* Liverpool to Scarborough
* Manchester Piccadilly to Hull (semi-fast)
* Manchester Piccadilly to Leeds (semi-fast)

With the bottom 2 still being 185 operation.

Is there anything to suggest that the Manchester-Leeds stopper won't continue to York?

 

[sprinterguy]

So may routes and so much rolling stock has moved between TPE and other TOCs since ATN it is meaningless making sweeping generalisations about capacity without doing some thorough research.

I have done some thorough research, albeit some of my figures for the North West services down the years are a bit sketchy. I just didn't feel it necessary to present the nitty gritty detail at the time:

2000 - Northern Spirit Transpennine Express 158
51 carriages = 17 x 3-car 158
42 carriages = 21 x 2-car 158
20 carriages = 10 x 2-car WYPTE 158
TOTAL = 113 carriages

2005 - First Transpennine Express pre-185
69 carriages = 23 x 3-car 158 (17 x original and 6 x hybrid formations)
46 carriages = 23 x 2-car 158
27 carriages = 11 x 2-car/3-car 175 hired by TPE for North West services now incorporated into the franchise (I'm not sure of how many 2 and 3-car units TPE utilised, but know that they hired 11 units on a daily basis)
TOTAL = 142 carriages including North West services
TOTAL = 115 carriages without North West services

2006 - First Transpennine Express 185/170
153 carriages = 51 x 3-car 185
18 carriages = 9 x 2-car 170
TOTAL = 171 carriages including North West services

9 x 3-car 185 units subsequently utilised on Manchester - Scotland services (rough figure, admittedly)
TOTAL = 144 carriages excluding Anglo-Scottish services

2015 - First Transpennine Express 185/170/350
153 carriages = 51 x 3-car 185
8 carriages = 4 x 2-car 170
12 carriages = 6 x 2-car 158
40 carriages = 10 x 4-car 350
TOTAL = 213 carriages
TOTAL = 173 carriages excluding Anglo-Scottish services

2020 - First Transpennine Express New Fleet/185
65 carriages = 13 x 5-car EDMU for North TPE services
95 carriages = 19 x 5-car EDMU for North TPE Newcastle/Edinburgh services
60 carriages = 12 x 5-car EMU for WCML Anglo-Scottish services
84 carriages = 28 x 3-car 185 (Numbers not confirmed)
TOTAL = 304 carriages
TOTAL = 244 carriages excluding WCML Anglo-Scottish services
Also note that at this point, the North West TPE services will have been removed from the franchise

 

[backontrack]

Don't forget the 175s that they were loaned from ATW!

 

[northwichcat]

Is there anything to suggest that the Manchester-Leeds stopper won't continue to York?

The franchise map of improvements doesn't mention any additional services to Manchester from York, only faster services. It was proposed in the HLOS that there would be 2 services per hour from Selby to Manchester but that idea seems to have been dropped as the only additional services mentioned for Selby are additional services late in the day and a proper Sunday service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Don't forget the 175s that they were loaned from ATW!

Why does that make a difference? The 175s were ordered for former Regional Railways North West operations and while the lease transferred to ATW it was on the basis that units would be loaned back for the North West routes until replacement stock was procured.

EDIT: Just realised you thought they were missed off not that they weren't relevant.

 

[sprinterguy]

The Voyager situation was very similar

It's nothing of the sort, though, and the decrease in Crosscountry train lengths by 2 - 3 carriages despite the doubled frequency is relevant: Transpennine Express is receiving an enhanced frequency and trains lengthened by 2 carriages.

Apparently AT300 has 576 std seats in 10 car formation, that is, if it is what TPE are getting, almost exactly a 4 car 158 in the 5car format. 125mph stock is not the same as 100mph because of the large amount of dead space needed behind the cabs. 288 std seats is just not enough, it is a peak formation from 20 years before their date of introduction.

First Great Western's 5-car Bi-mode Hitachi class 800s will seat 324, an increase on the 315 seats shown in the draft layouts for the trains published in 2012. I assume that such a fleet for TPE would have a similar seating capacity. Siemens' 125mph Desiro Verve does not have a large amount of dead space behind the cabs, and as such despite the shorter 23 metre carriages could possibly be expected to have a similar seated capacity.

Again, a capacity that is double that of most trains operating the route today is not an unsubstantial increase.

 

[northwichcat]

2005 - First Transpennine Express pre-185
69 carriages = 23 x 3-car 158 (17 x original and 6 x hybrid formations)
46 carriages = 23 x 2-car 158
27 carriages = 11 x 2-car/3-car 175 hired by TPE for North West services now incorporated into the franchise (I'm not sure of how many 2 and 3-car units TPE utilised, but know that they hired 11 units on a daily basis)
TOTAL = 142 carriages including North West services
TOTAL = 115 carriages without North West services

Don't forget in 2004 TPE subleased 2 x 158s from FNW and when they were returned they subleased 4 x 158s from Central which remained until the 185s were introduced, so that was an increase of 4 carriages within 12 months.

 

[sprinterguy]

Don't forget the 175s that they were loaned from ATW!

They're in there, under the 2005 section.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Don't forget in 2004 TPE subleased 2 x 158s from FNW and when they were returned they subleased 4 x 158s from Central which remained until the 185s were introduced, so that was an increase of 4 carriages within 12 months.

I've included the Central Trains and ex-FNW (158757/758) units in my calculations. What I didn't realise is that they weren't all being leased by TPE at the same time.

 

[northwichcat]

I've included the Central Trains and ex-FNW (158757/758) units in my calculations. What I didn't realise is that they weren't all being leased by TPE at the same time.

The 158s subleased from FNW to TPE were replaced by a loco-hauled set of 31s and 4 x mk2s which got used on the Blackpool-Piccadilly and Piccadilly-Chester via Altrincham routes at peak times (it ran semi-fast on the latter.) When Northern took over they wanted their 158s back so that they could end the loco-hauled operation.

 

[sprinterguy]

There isn't any mention of them being lengthenable as with Northerns order so assume rigid 5/10 car 23m formations likely meaning some stations will need platforms lengthening.

The number of units being ordered against the frequency and end to end length of the Transpennine Express services they are expected to work does not suggest that doubling up of trains, to create 10-car formations is expected. The platform lengthening required to accommodate such train lengths at locations such as Huddersfield and Manchester Airport would be extensive.

 

[northwichcat]

2015 - First Transpennine Express 185/170/350
153 carriages = 51 x 3-car 185
8 carriages = 4 x 2-car 170
12 carriages = 6 x 2-car 158
40 carriages = 10 x 4-car 350
TOTAL = 213 carriages
TOTAL = 173 carriages excluding Anglo-Scottish services

A couple of corrections here:
1. It's 156s subleased from Northern not 158s.
2. There's still 185 workings on Scottish services on Fridays and Saturdays. Allowing for them it's 167 carriages excluding Scottish services.

 

[Haydn1971]

The platform lengthening required to accommodate such train lengths at locations such as Huddersfield and Manchester Airport would be extensive.

I see Huddersfield being difficult to extend because of the tunnel to the south and viaduct to the north, in particular the upstand beam type structures over John William Street, but then it's unlikely to be needed with 4x 5 car units and 2x 6 car 185's per hour. Manchester Airport has no such issues, there's plenty of space to enable expansion to the east now that new structure is in place for Outwood Lane.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

10-car formations is expected.

Thinking aloud, with the works starting this year at Oxford Road and Picadilly to provide space for 8 car trains, I'm actually expecting gradual lengthening of propose TPE 5 car fleet, assuming an AT300 style 26m carriage length, 7x 26m would fit into the proposed 8x 23m length platforms without any faff with SDO and would limit the impact of the central driving car space losses in a doubled up unit. Just because doubled up AT300's are the rage on GWR and VTEC, doesn't mean the same thing will happen on other TOC's, especially those not shackled by the IEP contract.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I see Huddersfield being difficult to extend because of the tunnel to the south and viaduct to the north, in particular the upstand beam type structures over John William Street, but then it's unlikely to be needed with 4x 5 car units and 2x 6 car 185's per hour. Manchester Airport has no such issues, there's plenty of space to enable expansion to the east now that new structure is in place for Outwood Lane.

I'd be surprised if 6-car is the norm on the semi-fasts, considering the lack of SDO and short platforms. There are plans to extend Slaithwaite, Deighton, Marsden et al but only to take 4x23m. This plan was of course before the 170s went South.

 

[Class 170101]

Whatever type of train is ordered, I'd suggest a big programme of platform lengthening is unlikely. Most of the principal stations can accommodate a long formation anyway, while any attempt at lengthening at Huddersfield or Manchester Airport will not be straightforward, and these trains are bound to be equipped with selective door operation.

I would have thought platform lengthening at Manchester Airport will be needed otherwise a 10 car train will be fouling the points there preventing other platforms being used.

 

[Haydn1971]

I'd be surprised if 6-car is the norm on the semi-fasts, considering the lack of SDO and short platforms.

The norm ? No, in the high peak, yes.... Is SDO that difficult to install ?

There are plans to extend Slaithwaite, Deighton, Marsden et al but only to take 4x23m. This plan was of course before the 170s went South.

I've not done any measuring but not of these appear technically difficult to lengthen - it's a question of what will be required in the longer term post electrification that's perhaps more difficult to ascertain - a similar fleet type on this route for both TPE and Northern would be useful going forward into the mid 2020's, ie based on 26m carriages

 

[Class 170101]

According to First 44 new trains all 5 car length, 12 of them will be pure electric and dedicated to Airport-Scotland runs while the rest will be Bi-Mode and available for North TPE. There isn't any mention of them being lengthenable as with Northerns order so assume rigid 5/10 car 23m formations likely meaning some stations will need platforms lengthening.

I thought was suggested up thread that some of the trains would be bi mode AT300s? These come in 5 and 9 car formations for Great Western, how difficult would it be to extend the 5 car trains to 9 car trains at a later date by adding extra carriages?

 

[Haydn1971]

I thought was suggested up thread that some of the trains would be bi mode AT300s? These come in 5 and 9 car formations for Great Western, how difficult would it be to extend the 5 car trains to 9 car trains at a later date by adding extra carriages?

There's been no clarification on lengths - many people are speculating AT300's, but then Siemens, CAF, Hyundai, Alstom etc options are possible, as are 23 or 24m carriages.... Hopefully not 20m !!!! The key restriction will be what can be provided at the core of TPE's network, ie Piccadilly, Oxford Road and Victoria, which I believe are being geared up for 8 car trains - although I can't recall if 20m or 23m has been specified - either way, doubled up 10 car TPE services are looking unlikely to me.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To add, I'm thinking that the current plan for 8 car platforms through Oxford Road / Piccadilly, ideally at 23m, would allow 8x 23m 100/110mph semi-fast trains and up to 7x 26m 125mph express trains, requiring 184m and 182m respectively.

 

[NotATrainspott]

The rebuilt and new through platforms at Oxford Road and Piccadilly are both only just longer than 200m. As they're also on loops, SDO would involve blocking the other platform which I don't think is at all feasible. Therefore I can't see there being any possible use for major platform extension work at the Airport - maybe a dozen metres or so to handle 8x23m/7x26m rather than 8x20m but not enough to allow a 10x26m or 11x23m.

How the Liverpool-Scotland services are then going to be added on is going to be interesting. If the trains were sized properly for Airport-Scotland then they would be 8x23m or 7x26m, but then it's effectively impossible to do portion working to Liverpool. A split fleet of 7x23m and 4x23m (like the Meridians) wouldn't pose any platform length or capacity issues but it would then mean a micro-fleet of trains only really suitable for serving Liverpool. Having one fleet of trains capable of splitting and joining and serving Liverpool by portion working limits each train to be 130m long, shorter than a current 6x23m double 185. In the end that might just have to be what happens, even though it would mean providing more capacity between Scotland and Preston and less between Preston and Manchester, where it is actually needed.

 

[Haydn1971]

The rebuilt and new through platforms at Oxford Road and Piccadilly are both only just longer than 200m.

So 8x 25m could just be possible ? How much wiggle room is usually required on platforms at each end ?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

So 8x 25m could just be possible ? How much wiggle room is usually required on platforms at each end ?

25 metres or 26 metres ?

 

[Haydn1971]

25 metres or 26 metres ?

Depends on how much over 200m the platforms are ? 200m or 208m

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Depends on how much over 200m the platforms are ? 200m or 208m

Who's building the 25 metre stock then ?

 

[Haydn1971]

Who's building the 25 metre stock then ?

As you well know, anyone can build 25m stock, 26m would seem to be the ideal length moving forward though, given the future proliferation of 26m Hitachi units - but if Oxford Road is only going to be 200m, then it's perhaps a tad unwise to buy 26m stock for TPE !

 

[Class 170101]

How the Liverpool-Scotland services are then going to be added on is going to be interesting. If the trains were sized properly for Airport-Scotland then they would be 8x23m or 7x26m, but then it's effectively impossible to do portion working to Liverpool.

Would it be possible to run as follows

4 car Liverpool to Preston - 1st train arrive Preston
8 car Manchester to Preston - 2nd train arrive at Preston
Attach
12 cars Preston to Carlisle
Detach
Front 8 car to Glasgow
Rear 4 car to Edinburgh

Would the platforms from Preston to Carlisle inclusive cope with 26*12 (312 metres) or 23*12 (276 metres) length trains?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

How the Liverpool-Scotland services are then going to be added on is going to be interesting.

We are assuming portion working, but the 3 Liverpool-Glasgow services might be separate 5-car trains.
There are also a couple of new Manchester-Glasgow services to be added to an already hourly timetable.

 

[Senex]

We are assuming portion working, but the 3 Liverpool-Glasgow services might be separate 5-car trains.
There are also a couple of new Manchester-Glasgow services to be added to an already hourly timetable.

Don't trains alternate at the moment between Edinburgh and Glasgow, giving Manchester essentially a two-hourly service to and from each destination? I'd understood it as the extra Manchester-Glasgows and the new Liverpool-Glasgows would probably plug some of the two-hourly gaps rather than be portion workings with existing trains, i.e. separate 5-car units.

 

[northwichcat]

Don't trains alternate at the moment between Edinburgh and Glasgow, giving Manchester essentially a two-hourly service to and from each destination? I'd understood it as the extra Manchester-Glasgows and the new Liverpool-Glasgows would probably plug some of the two-hourly gaps rather than be portion workings with existing trains, i.e. separate 5-car units.

We know from the annoucement that they'll be 3 services per day between Liverpool and Glasgow. The franchise consultation document suggested more Manchester to Edinburgh services and less Manchester to Glasgow services might better suit demand, so I don't know if that might still happen with Glasgow getting Liverpool services in lieu.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would it be possible to run as follows

4 car Liverpool to Preston - 1st train arrive Preston
8 car Manchester to Preston - 2nd train arrive at Preston
Attach
12 cars Preston to Carlisle
Detach
Front 8 car to Glasgow
Rear 4 car to Edinburgh

I'd do it the other way round - demand to Edinburgh is much higher.