How to buy the wrong ticket

[rdwarr]

We're mostly relative experts on fares here. We work on the railways or are knowledgeable commuters or enthusiasts. But 99% of passengers aren't and rely on rail staff or websites to sell them the correct ticket.
Let's assume I'm a "normal" and want to get a season from Stevenage to Blackfriars (my normal commute). I go onto the GTR website which will happily sell me one and describes the benefits of weekly, monthly or annual tickets. It says nothing about "odd periods" but there is a "custom" option available with no explanation as to what it is. It also offers me "Smart Key" tickets which I'll ignore as that debacle was discussed in another thread.

Anyway, I plump for Monthly, Standard Class and am offered a choice of three tickets at three different prices.
Ticket #1 goes from Stevenage to "London Terminals" and is priced at £340.70. Well, that looks promising. Blackfriars is in London and it's a terminal so that looks just what I need. There is a map showing the route but when I zoom in on the destination it shows Piccadilly Circus. Perhaps it's valid there too.
Ticket #2 just goes to Blackfriars and costs £371.40. It says I have to go via City Thameslink but I was planning on doing that anyway, The mapped route ends up at Blackfriars this time so this ticket would obviously work as well. But why is it £30 more than the first one?
Ticket #3 is a Travelcard and costs £462.80. I clearly don't need that but am curious as to why the map shows three destinations for this ticket. King's Cross, Old Street and Moorgate.
Conclusion: I buy ticket #1 and get stopped the first time I try to go through the gateline at St Pancras.

Is this all my fault?
Why am I offered a London Terminals ticket if it isn't valid? Why does its map go to Piccadilly Circus?
Why does the map for the Travelcard show the destinations that ARE valid for this ticket?

Loads more questions, but you can see how "normal" passengers can very quickly go wrong if they're given misleading or conflicting information to start with.

 

[PermitToTravel]

It must have been very hard for GTR to manage to make a website that's somehow even worse than the average GTR booking office.

 

[Hadders]

If buying a season ticket from Stevenage I'd visit the VTEC travel centre as in my experience the clerks there are normally very good.

I absolutely agree with you about GTR's new booking engine - absolutely awful.

 

[rdwarr]

I always use the GTR ticket office at Stevenage and they're great as well. They'll happily do me a six-and-a-bit-week ticket to London Bridge even though no trains actually go there Once you're on the system then it takes no time at all.

Looking forward to the next "Meet the Managers". This, coupled with the lack of information on VTEC not taking smartcards (it's hidden in the FAQs), is shameful.

 

[Hadders]

To be fair the GTR staff are good as well. I do like to support the VTEC office where I can though - I can't think of another station outside a large city that has two booking offices run by separate companies.

Agree about smartcard not being accepted on VTEC, it's disgraceful.

 

[martinsh]

Ticket #1 goes from Stevenage to "London Terminals" and is priced at £340.70. Well, that looks promising. Blackfriars is in London and it's a terminal
.

I think it's dubious to class Blackfriars as a "terminal" for the uninitiated - certainly there are no terminating platforms from the north !

Conclusion: I buy ticket #1 and get stopped the first time I try to go through the gateline at St Pancras.

Er why would you get stopped at St Pancras ? I know that ticket isn't valid to Blackfriars, but surely it's valid north of Faringdon ?

 

[PermitToTravel]

I imagine they mean entering at St Pancras low level to go south? (Trains from Stevenage go into King's Cross, not St. Pancras)

 

[rdwarr]

I think it's dubious to class Blackfriars as a "terminal" for the uninitiated - certainly there are no terminating platforms from the north !


Er why would you get stopped at St Pancras ? I know that ticket isn't valid to Blackfriars, but surely it's valid north of Faringdon ?

It's all about the "uninitiated" really based on the tickets offered by the website. And bear in mind that Old Street is a "London Terminal" from Stevenage.

Previous poster was correct. You walk to St Pancras from Kings X and attempt to go south on Thameslink. That's when the trouble starts.

 

[martinsh]

Previous poster was correct. You walk to St Pancras from Kings X and attempt to go south on Thameslink. That's when the trouble starts.

Sorry, I'm not familiar with St Pancras Low Level (though I have been there) - how does the barrier know you're heading south ? And is it not valid to Faringdon ?

 

[rdwarr]

Sorry, I'm not familiar with St Pancras Low Level (though I have been there) - how does the barrier know you're heading south ? And is it not valid to Faringdon ?

No, I don't think it's valid to Farringdon (but will happily be corrected). The barrier doesn't need to know which way you're heading - a Stevenage to London Terminals ticket has no validity at all on Thameslink.

 

[EM2]

Is this all my fault?
Why am I offered a London Terminals ticket if it isn't valid? Why does its map go to Piccadilly Circus?
Why does the map for the Travelcard show the destinations that ARE valid for this ticket?

Loads more questions, but you can see how "normal" passengers can very quickly go wrong if they're given misleading or conflicting information to start with.

There's a simple answer to all this, and that is to ask. Whether it's in person at a station, or via letter, email or even Twitter.

 

[ComUtoR]

Previous poster was correct. You walk to St Pancras from Kings X and attempt to go south on Thameslink. That's when the trouble starts.

Once you have arrived at Kings Cross you have arrived at your destination. (London Terminal ?)

You leave Kings Cross and make a new journey across London to St Pancras and then to another destination. Consider that from St Pancras you can go to Sevenoaks shouldn't the system be geared up to prevent that ?

Is there a ticket that allows entry into a London Terminal then transfer across London to any other London terminal or do you need to specify that you need Blackfriars.

I am uninitiated and I would consider you arrived then made a second journey.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Once you have arrived at Kings Cross you have arrived at your destination. (London Terminal ?)

You leave Kings Cross and make a new journey across London to St Pancras and then to another destination. Consider that from St Pancras you can go to Sevenoaks shouldn't the system be geared up to prevent that ?

Is there a ticket that allows entry into a London Terminal then transfer across London to any other London terminal or do you need to specify that you need Blackfriars.

I am uninitiated and I would consider you arrived then made a second journey.

When you arrive at London Terminals you may then continue to any other station in the London Terminals group as long as you do so without going through any stations that are not in the London Terminals group. For example, upon reaching London Bridge on a train (and ticket) from Kent, it's absolutely okay to carry on to Waterloo East (a London Terminal), walk to Waterloo (a London Terminal), and take a train to Vauxhall (a London Terminal).

The issue here is that Farringdon is not a London Terminal (unless you have travelled on HS1, in which case it is :roll. Knowing this, the website shouldn't ever offer a ticket from Stevenage to London Terminals when it is specifically asked for a station that is further than Farringdon.

 

[Starmill]

It looks to me like the ticket to London Blackfriars is actually to London Blackfriars. There appear to be no tickets to London Thameslink (in which Blackfriars is included from any origin) available from Stevenage, so this is the correct choice for this journey as a London Terminals ticket is never valid to or via Farringdon.

If you approach from elsewhere e.g. the South with a London Terminals ticket you may continue to use it past London Terminals to other members of London Terminals, for example by catching a train that stops at Vauxhall (in London Terminals) passing through London Waterloo and London Waterloo East (also both in London Terminals) and continuing to London Charing Cross (surprise surprise, in London Terminals). You might also do the same with London Bridge, London Blackfriars and City Thameslink.

 

[bb21]

Sorry, I'm not familiar with St Pancras Low Level (though I have been there) - how does the barrier know you're heading south ? And is it not valid to Faringdon ?

No London Terminals ticket is valid at Farringdon unless routed Plus High Speed or equivalent.

Some tickets have further validity from King's Cross onto Moorgate, but that is not applicable at St Pancras Low Level.

 

[ComUtoR]

The issue here is that Farringdon is not a London Terminal (unless you have travelled on HS1, in which case it is :roll. Knowing this, the website shouldn't ever offer a ticket from Stevenage to London Terminals when it is specifically asked for a station that is further than Farringdon.

Cheers for that.

So if you walked from Kings Cross to City Thameslink the barrier should accept the ticket ?

Is a tube journey allowed between London terminals ?

It's often mentioned here that it is the responsibility of the passenger to check the validity of their ticket. I think it would be worse if the website refused to issue a London terminals ticket but I would accept that validity of tickets should be clearly stated at point of sale.

 

[Hadders]

As has been said there is no ticket from Stevenage to London Thameslink. You can buy a ticket from Stevenage to a named London Thameslink station (eg. Farringdon/City Thameslink/Blackfriars/London Bridge/Elephant & Castle - they are all the same price). The routeing for these tickets is 'Not Underground' so the intention is that you travel from Stevenage to Kings Cross, nip across the road to St Pancras Low Level and continue your journey from there on a Thameslink service.

A few points to note:

- when the canal tunnels open there will be direct trains from Stevenage to St Pancras and then onto the 'London Thameslink' stations and beyond.
- with a ticket from Stevenage to London Terminals you can travel on the Metropolitan/Circle/Hammersmith & City Lines to Moorgate but you are not allowed to join or alight at Farringdon. So it's perfectly valid to travel through Farringdon on a London Terminals ticket but not to get off (rather annoying when the Head Office of the company I work for is a 5 minute walk from Farringdon!)
- would a ticket from, say,Stevenage to Elephant & Castle route 'Not Underground' be valid from Stevenage to Moorgate, then a walk to City Thameslink and onwards from there?

 

[bb21]

Cheers for that.

So if you walked from Kings Cross to City Thameslink the barrier should accept the ticket ?

No.

For that to be a permitted journey, the complete journey would have to cross Farringdon, which is not permitted on a London Terminals ticket unless routed Plus High Speed.

 

[Bookd]

It may be a silly question, but why are 'plus high speed' tickets uniquely valid to Farringdon?

 

[bb21]

They are valid for travel into the usual south London terminals from the South East via St Pancras (for obvious reasons) and the walk-on fares normally have no break of journey restriction, hence valid at Farringdon.

Normally London Terminals tickets are not valid for travel to/from/via Farringdon, and consequently SouthEastern put an easement in for that purpose a few years ago for tickets with the aforementioned routing.

 

[rdwarr]

There's a simple answer to all this, and that is to ask. Whether it's in person at a station, or via letter, email or even Twitter.

Indeed. Which is why I mentioned bringing this up at the next "Meet the Managers". Would be nice to go through a "worked example".

 

[Hadders]

Indeed. Which is why I mentioned bringing this up at the next "Meet the Managers". Would be nice to go through a "worked example".

A Railforums Fares Workshop would probably yield a more accurate result....

 

[talltim]

You are all missing the point the OP made. The Stevenage to London Terminals season might not be valid to Blackfriars, but the GTR website gives it as an option when you search for a ticket from Stevenage to Blackfriars.
If it gives it to you as a option, why would you even consider that you need to ask, whether it's in person at a station, or via letter, email or even Twitter?
Surely its mis-selling?

 

[bb21]

You are all missing the point the OP made. The Stevenage to London Terminals season might not be valid to Blackfriars, but the GTR website gives it as an option when you search for a ticket from Stevenage to Blackfriars.
If it gives it to you as a option, why would you even consider that you need to ask, whether it's in person at a station, or via letter, email or even Twitter?
Surely its mis-selling?

Absolutely.

It is a very poor show from GTR.

 

[rdwarr]

There's a simple answer to all this, and that is to ask. Whether it's in person at a station, or via letter, email or even Twitter.

Simple, you say?

 

[EM2]

Simple, you say?

View attachment 25065

Then you show that to the RPI or REO, and get them to argue the toss

 

[Hadders]

Oh dear. The incompetence is breathtaking.

 

[rdwarr]

Then you show that to the RPI or REO, and get them to argue the toss

Tempting, but I don't need the hassle/delay on my way to work, especially if it's going to be every day for the nest few weeks. I was going to try your other suggestion of Email but they're quoting a 20-day response time.

I'll renew my ticket at Stevenage ticket office tomorrow and mention it to the clerk there if they're not too busy (along with the Smartcard issue).

 

[ComUtoR]

When I have checking the route that the journey planners are giving me it lists 1 change and that is via the underground from kings cross to blackfriars. I have tried a couple of booking engines but they all route me on the tube.

When I look at the season ticket for London Terminals it quite clearly shows

"Travel is allowed via any permitted route"

Would a permitted route be via the tube ?

 

[PermitToTravel]

No. In general tickets to London Terminals aren't valid on the tube, apart from tickets from the ECML being valid to Moorgate.