Services from Manchester Victoria under the New Franchises

[lejog]

Often when I visit Manchester Victoria, I wonder what the services will be like in the future, when it becomes a through station in 2019(?) with all services from the west running through to the east if only as far as Stalybridge (EMUs) or Rochdale (DMUs). With the new franchise awards, we now have a better idea, it looks like a massive increase in the number of departures from the current 10-12 per hour to something like 30. 15 through trains per hour - 4 TPE, 3 Northern Connect and 8 Northern. This begs a few questions. Will the station cope with an increase in passenger numbers, facilities are somewhat sparse? Will the east facing bays under the expensive new roof really be empty? What happens if Stalybridge electrification is delayed?

Here's a possible service pattern, based on new services announced and current services being maintained. Any corrections/comments/thoughts welcome.

A. FROM ORDSALL CHORD.

2 TPE services from Manchester Airport to Newcastle and Middlesborough
1 Northern Connect service from Manchester Airport to Calder Valley line

B. FROM CHAT MOSS

2 TPE services from Liverpool to Scarborough and Edinburgh
2 Northern Connect services from Liverpool and Chester to Calder Valley line
1 Northern stopper from Liverpool to Stalybridge

C. FROM WIGAN

The franchise spec says there will be 7tph from Wigan to central Manchester, so the Victoria service could look something like:
1 Southport via Atherton to Calder Valley line (Brighouse)
1 Southport via Atherton to Rochdale
1 Kirby via Atherton to Rochdale
1 Wigan via Lostock to Stalybridge

D. FROM BOLTON

1 Blackpool North to Stalybridge
1 Clitheroe to Calder Valley Line (Burnley/Blackburn)
1 Blackburn to Rochdale

 

[northwichcat]

2 Northern Connect services from Liverpool and Chester to Calder Valley line
1 Northern stopper from Liverpool to Stalybridge

From the franchise announcement

Northern will continue to run 2 trains per hour on this route, the existing direct between Liverpool and Manchester Airport and a new direct link to Manchester Victoria and on to Bradford via the Calder Valley.

So they'll be no stopper in to Victoria unless Arriva decide to make the Northern Connect service the stopper, opposed to the Liverpool-Airport service.

The franchise spec says there will be 7tph from Wigan to central Manchester, so the Victoria service could look something like:
1 Southport via Atherton to Calder Valley line (Brighouse)
1 Southport via Atherton to Rochdale
1 Kirby via Atherton to Rochdale
1 Wigan via Lostock to Stalybridge

Passengers to/from Wigan will benefit from 7 trains per hour to/from central Manchester for much of the day, consisting of:

4 trains per hour via Atherton (up from 2 off-peak and 3-4 in the peak)
2 trains per hour via Bolton (to be served by electric trains once the route is electrified)
1 fast Northern Connect service train per hour to/from Manchester Oxford Road, Piccadilly and the Airport (replacing the TransPennine Express service which currently operates on this route, but which will revert to operating via Bolton from December 2017)

So 4 Wigan-Manchester via Atherton, 2 via Bolton and 1 via Chat Moss. Southport-Calder Vale is a definite and Southport-Rochdale is a good educated guess. Given the Atherton enhancements won't happen until 2019 and some of the other changes will happen in 2017 (like Bolton getting EMUs) it's likely they'll be changes at both the December 17 and 19 timetable changes affecting Wigan.

Blackpool North to Stalybridge

Again I think that's a good educated guess. I imagine it's also likely we'll see Wigan-Bolton-Victoria-Stalybridge services.

 

[lejog]

From the franchise announcementSo they'll be no stopper in to Victoria unless Arriva decide to make the Northern Connect service the stopper, opposed to the Liverpool-Airport service.

Ok thanks, one off the total then. Begs the question of what service is going to serve Eccles and Patricroft, is the airport service Northern Connect or not?

So 4 Wigan-Manchester via Atherton, 2 via Bolton and 1 via Chat Moss.

Yes as I said 7tph into Central Manchester. I've assumed 4 into Victoria and 3 into Piccadilly. Any more detailed information?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So 4 Wigan-Manchester via Atherton, 2 via Bolton and 1 via Chat Moss. Southport-Calder Vale is a definite and Southport-Rochdale is a good educated guess.

Ahh editing your post I see. You do know there's never been a Calder Vale line? That's the name of a small village in Lancashire. The line has reverted to being called the Calder Valley line , no longer the Caldervale line.

 

[northwichcat]

Ahh editing your post I see.

Yes but the last edit was 12 minutes before you submitted your post.

You do know there's never been a Calder Vale line?

Metro have been calling it such as years. The URL and page title (in the browser tab) on this page gives away they've only recently changed it: http://www.wymetro.com/TrainTravel/traintimetables/caldervaleline/

 

[Welshman]

Yes but the last edit was 12 minutes before you submitted your post.



Metro have been calling it such as years. The URL and page title (in the browser tab) on this page gives away they've only recently changed it: http://www.wymetro.com/TrainTravel/traintimetables/caldervaleline/

"Caldervale" was a Metro invention - much to the chagrin of many!

 

[Jonfun]

I think he's getting picky Calder Vale vs Caldervale.

It's been known as the Caldervale line for years so if they want to rebrand it as something else they'll have to accept people will still call it by it's old name. Someone tried to be pedantic the other week about the arena in Manchester, "ohh, it's not called the *MEN* arena any more". I was tempted to point out that a fair few folk, myself included, still call it the Nynex...

 

[northwichcat]

"ohh, it's not called the *MEN* arena any more". I was tempted to point out that a fair few folk, myself included, still call it the Nynex...

I think it's better to say Nynex given that they no longer exist while M.E.N. still do exist but no longer pay for sponsorship.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

"Caldervale" was a Metro invention - much to the chagrin of many!

Metro insist on using line names even though most normal passengers prefer a route description. A lot of people think Metro are taking the **** by putting "Penistone Line" in big letters on the front of a timetable opposed to "Huddersfield to Sheffield via Barnsley"

 

[backontrack]

How about just putting four or five place names on the top of the timetable? Keep the colour coding system. So you'd have:

Huddersfield
Penistone
Barnsley
Sheffield

Leeds
Horsforth
Harrogate
York

Leeds
Bradford
Keighley
Skipton

for example.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Often when I visit Manchester Victoria, I wonder what the services will be like in the future, when it becomes a through station in 2019(?) with all services from the west running through to the east if only as far as Stalybridge (EMUs) or Rochdale (DMUs). With the new franchise awards, we now have a better idea, it looks like a massive increase in the number of departures from the current 10-12 per hour to something like 30. 15 through trains per hour - 4 TPE, 3 Northern Connect and 8 Northern. This begs a few questions. Will the station cope with an increase in passenger numbers, facilities are somewhat sparse? Will the east facing bays under the expensive new roof really be empty? What happens if Stalybridge electrification is delayed?

Here's a possible service pattern, based on new services announced and current services being maintained. Any corrections/comments/thoughts welcome.

A. FROM ORDSALL CHORD.

2 TPE services from Manchester Airport to Newcastle and Middlesborough
1 Northern Connect service from Manchester Airport to Calder Valley line

B. FROM CHAT MOSS

2 TPE services from Liverpool to Scarborough and Edinburgh
2 Northern Connect services from Liverpool and Chester to Calder Valley line
1 Northern stopper from Liverpool to Stalybridge

C. FROM WIGAN

The franchise spec says there will be 7tph from Wigan to central Manchester, so the Victoria service could look something like:
1 Southport via Atherton to Calder Valley line (Brighouse)
1 Southport via Atherton to Rochdale
1 Kirby via Atherton to Rochdale
1 Wigan via Lostock to Stalybridge

D. FROM BOLTON

1 Blackpool North to Stalybridge
1 Clitheroe to Calder Valley Line (Burnley/Blackburn)
1 Blackburn to Rochdale

Would Blackburn to Rochdale be via Todmorden? Or would it be from Clitheroe to Rochdale via Darwen?

 

[lejog]

I think he's getting picky Calder Vale vs Caldervale.

It's been known as the Caldervale line for years so if they want to rebrand it as something else they'll have to accept people will still call it by it's old name. Someone tried to be pedantic the other week about the arena in Manchester, "ohh, it's not called the *MEN* arena any more". I was tempted to point out that a fair few folk, myself included, still call it the Nynex...

Oddly enough us Yorkshire folk can get very grumpy when apparently being relocated to Calder Vale in Lancashire. The Caldervale line was renamed to Calder Valley 18 months ago, which I accept is too recent for some people, anyway the non-existent Caldervale was just a plain silly name Metro invented rather than being particularly annoying. What next Airevale, Wharfevale, Nidvale, Wensleyvale and Swalevale? The Yorkshire Vales? If you are going to have Airedale and Wharfedale lines, Calderdale has always been an alternative to Calder Valley and would have been perfectly acceptable.

Anyway trying to drag the thread back on topic, I've looked at what the interactive maps say about services in from Wigan and Bolton. The following are specified to as running to central Manchester (rather than Manchester Airport).

• 4 trains from Wigan via Atherton
• 2 trains from Wigan via Bolton
• 1 train from Blackpool North
• 2 trains from Blackburn/Clitheroe

As I understand it at the moment there is only one path per hour to Stockport via Piccadilly. Unless this number increases or there are unannounced services to the Airport, I may have underestimated the number of services from Wigan to Victoria.

So from my original list, knock off the stopper from Liverpool, but add 1 maybe 2 services from Wigan.

 

[northwichcat]

I thought the plan was Hazel Grove to Bolton will be half-hourly from December 19 by which time the Ordsall Chord should be operational and TPE will be using less Piccadilly paths.

 

[childwallblues]

Oddly enough us Yorkshire folk can get very grumpy when apparently being relocated to Calder Vale in Lancashire. The Caldervale line was renamed to Calder Valley 18 months ago, which I accept is too recent for some people, anyway the non-existent Caldervale was just a plain silly name Metro invented rather than being particularly annoying. What next Airevale, Wharfevale, Nidvale, Wensleyvale and Swalevale? The Yorkshire Vales? If you are going to have Airedale and Wharfedale lines, Calderdale has always been an alternative to Calder Valley and would have been perfectly acceptable.

Anyway trying to drag the thread back on topic, I've looked at what the interactive maps say about services in from Wigan and Bolton. The following are specified to as running to central Manchester (rather than Manchester Airport).

• 4 trains from Wigan via Atherton
• 2 trains from Wigan via Bolton
• 1 train from Blackpool North
• 2 trains from Blackburn/Clitheroe

As I understand it at the moment there is only one path per hour to Stockport via Piccadilly. Unless this number increases or there are unannounced services to the Airport, I may have underestimated the number of services from Wigan to Victoria.

So from my original list, knock off the stopper from Liverpool, but add 1 maybe 2 services from Wigan.

If you knock off the Liverpool stopper what will serve Patricroft and Eccles?

 

[northwichcat]

If you knock off the Liverpool stopper what will serve Patricroft and Eccles?

Northern will run 2tph between Liverpool and Manchester on Chat Moss, as will TPE. One TPE will be non-stop to Victoria, the other will be semi-fast to Victoria. Northern will run one service to Piccadailly and one to Victoria, as the Victoria service will be a diesel service from Liverpool to Leeds via Bradford it's likely the Piccadilly service (which can be electric) will be the all-stops service.

 

[childwallblues]

Northern will run 2tph between Liverpool and Manchester on Chat Moss, as will TPE. One TPE will be non-stop to Victoria, the other will be semi-fast to Victoria. Northern will run one service to Piccadailly and one to Victoria, as the Victoria service will be a diesel service from Liverpool to Leeds via Bradford it's likely the Piccadilly service (which can be electric) will be the all-stops service.

Thank you. I hope that the Northern service from Lime Street to Victoria will be more than two car.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If you knock off the Liverpool stopper what will serve Patricroft and Eccles?

I thought the expectation is that the current Victoria EMU stopper would go to the Airport instead (the Airport semi-fast would run via Warrington as a Northern Connect service).