Great western invite to pay

[Kateg]

Today found a letter from great western railways addressed to 'parent /guardian' of my son - he had hidden it from us but it stated that he had travelled from burley park to Manchester without ticket in October. It says nothing of prosecution or criminal matters but asks for fare plus £50 admin costs - approx £74. He had a ticket bought by dad on our family railcard but he didn't exit station with us - he'd gone ahead with friends and was not in possession of ticket when asked to present it - probably key point. we have a card statement with transaction on it but is this wrong line to take? He said he signed something and was told by guy ( unable to tell us who he was - Revenue protection or transport police) at station that stopped him that if he had been over 18 it might have been a criminal record. It is from prosecution department but says nothing about future course of action should payment not be made. What options do we have? Are we liable as he was under 18? Do we make them an offer/negotiate? anyone has any experience of this situation - I bet they get pain in the bum kids doing this all the time and my kid is no angel - any help welcome. They do not state a course of action if no payment - does that mean they have no prosecution capabilities or inclinations?

 

[najaB]

...was not in possession of ticket when asked to present it - probably key point. we have a card statement with transaction on it but is this wrong line to take?

If he wasn't in possession of the ticket, then he's committed a ticketing offence, it's as simple as that.*

Are we liable as he was under 18? Do we make them an offer/negotiate? anyone has any experience of this situation - I bet they get pain in the bum kids doing this all the time and my kid is no angel - any help welcome.

£74 is actually a comparatively low amount for a settlement, twice (or even more) than that is typical. While it isn't an easy pill to swallow (and depending on your familial finances might be a challenge) it's rather good going where these things are concerned.

Edit: As noted below, Neil Williams raises an interesting question, which does complicate things a little.

 

[swt_passenger]

You say your son had gone ahead, did you still have another child with you as well to validate your other tickets bought with the family railcard?

You might have ended up facing your own ticketing problem if checked yourselves. Might be a case of it being best to just pay up and accept the lesson learnt, of always sticking together until beyond the barriers...

 

[Bletchleyite]

If this is precisely as described, why would the inspector not simply tell the child to wait for their parents?

 

[skyhigh]

This has no impact on the matter as I understand any operator could bring a prosecution, but what's a Great Western Railway RPI doing in Manchester?

 

[najaB]

If this is precisely as described, why would the inspector not simply tell the child to wait for their parents?

Hmm... that is a good question. I had assumed 'gone on ahead with friends' to mean had travelled separately. If he had simply gotten to the barrier before his parents then it's a bit less clear.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do the FirstGroup TOCs operate a single prosecutions department?

 

[Kateg]

His dad is legit - had three kid tickets as well as his own Adult one - grand final rugby league - they started together at burley park but went off with mates on later train ( probably disowned parent - I would if I could) - was mayhem as rugby union game and boxing in Manchester that day - my question - why letter to us? Second what will they do if we don't respond - no mention of prosecution - why wouldn't they throw it all at us if they could? The bloke gave him a homeward ticket which he can't show us. Obviously he didn't tell us about this - just found letter down side of his bed - grrrrrrr

 

[PermitToTravel]

Second what will they do if we don't respond - no mention of prosecution - why wouldn't they throw it all at us if they could?

If they prosecute you you'd be fined by a court. The government would get to keep the fine, whereas anything they can get out of you elseways is theirs to keep

 

[Stigy]

I'd offer to pay the cost of the ticket owed as a gesture of goodwill so as to stop them pestering you. Bearing in mind your son is a minor, and from what I've read, under 16 too, where has the TOC's duty of care towards him gone? Simply taking a child's details and kicking them out of a station is a little naughty. Assuming all is as stated and nothing's being lost in translation over the interwebs of course. If I'm honest, something seems a little strange about this situation (GWR in Manchester? Dad being in the vicinity but gone ahead?). GWR aren't going to go to court with a child as it would be too much like hard work, too costly and frowned upon by the likes of the Daily Mail (they can legally do so, but I've yet to see a TOC use a youth court unless extreme circumstances). You also cannot be held accountable.

 

[Kateg]

He's 6 foot tall but they obviously believed him when he said he was a child, dad didn't hang about for him nor was he worried - he's not vulnerable just annoying - he's been to rugby on own a number of times. Giving him a ticket home is surely a kind gesture to make sure he's ok - he apparently told him that if he was 18 it COULD have been a criminal record or prosecution so guessing that they can't do that to a minor? The letter gives 14 days nearly a week ago so have to decide soon if should make an offer, pay up or ignore....lessons learnt either way.

 

[najaB]

The letter gives 14 days nearly a week ago so have to decide soon if should make an offer, pay up or ignore....lessons learnt with way.

Pay up or make an offer. Don't ignore. These things don't just go away.

 

[Kateg]

Discord here as stigy has said 1. We (parents) are not accountable and 2. That they won't prosecute a minor due to bad publicity. He was 16 at time offence now 17. ( Family railcard purchased when 15 hence still valid) - if they could prosecute I think they would have threatened it in letter

 

[najaB]

If they could prosecute I think they would have threatened it in letter.

Yes, it's unlikely they'll prosecute but they may pursue it as a civil debt and increase the amounts demanded.

Edit: I suppose that ultimately it's debatable if they'd be able to claim any money, but for the sake of writing to them and offering to pay the ticket price you could save weeks/months of potential hassle.

 

[Kateg]

Think I'll ring them Monday and offer the fare portion ( return ) as that seems a middle ground gesture and he didn't complete the journey with the railcard holder as he ought - Thanks

 

[455driver]

If he was 16 at the time then in a Court of Law he would be classed as an adult and could be prosecuted as one so that is one place you don't want to go!
The fact he was travelling on (what would have been) a valid child ticket does not change the fact that he is seen as an adult in the eyes of the Courts.

You could try and be clever and offer the cost of the ticket (and nothing more) but they would be well within their rights to cancel this (very low) offer and prosecute your son , they could also prosecute you for aiding and abetting but that is highly unlikely.

If it was me I would pay it as soon as possible because I think the prosecution department have actually got it wrong and should have gone after your son because he was an adult when the offence took place and was therefore not in possession of a valid/ any ticket.

The terms of the F&F railcard are quite clear that all people have to travel together at all times.
Aside-
The fact they have made this (very low) offer (to an adult) suggests to me at least that your son remained calm, compliant and answered all questions fully and accurately at the time, something you should be very proud of.
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Yes, it's unlikely they'll prosecute but they may pursue it as a civil debt and increase the amounts demanded.

Edit: I suppose that ultimately it's debatable if they'd be able to claim any money, but for the sake of writing to them and offering to pay the ticket price you could save weeks/months of potential hassle.

The OPs son was 16 at the time of the offence so could very easily be prosecuted as an adult, something they want to be careful to avoid!

 

[gray1404]

Pay up or make an offer. Don't ignore. These things don't just go away.

What are they going to do though? Surely they cannot persue a civil debt against a minor?

Edit: Just realised he was 16 at the time of travel. So shall post another reply in more detail

 

[455driver]

Discord here as stigy has said 1. We (parents) are not accountable and 2. That they won't prosecute a minor due to bad publicity. He was 16 at time offence now 17. ( Family railcard purchased when 15 hence still valid) - if they could prosecute I think they would have threatened it in letter

If he was 16 at the time then he isn't a minor and would be classed as an adult albeit travelling on what would have been a valid child ticket if everyone had stayed together, be careful!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What are they going to do though? Surely they cannot persue a civil debt against a minor?

He was 16 at the time of the offence so not a minor!

People will 'get' this eventually! :roll:

 

[Kateg]

I'm not sure how I've aided and abetted him - I wasn't even there! I'm just trying to establish my position as they sent the letter to me ( parent) and find out his liability within the law and also the more realistic position - what is actually commonly done/ usual procedure - could be that they've misread the law as son says fella did mention more than once how it could have been different if he was 18......

 

[221129]

If he was 16 at the time then he isn't a minor and would be classed as an adult albeit travelling on what would have been a valid child ticket if everyone had stayed together, be careful!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

He was 16 at the time of the offence so not a minor!

People will 'get' this eventually! :roll:

Thought that legally you become an adult at 18?

 

[455driver]

Discord here as stigy has said 1. We (parents) are not accountable and 2. That they won't prosecute a minor due to bad publicity. He was 16 at time offence now 17. ( Family railcard purchased when 15 hence still valid) - if they could prosecute I think they would have threatened it in letter

Or they realised it was a mistake, received a very favourable report about your sons conduct at the time and decided to be very lenient, something that wont happen again if you try and be clever.
The TOC are asking for the costs of the ticket plus a very low amount to cover their costs of dealing with the matter.

Just because prosecution hasn't been mentioned doesn't mean it wont be in future!

The law is on the TOCs side especially as your son was 16 at the time.
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Thought that legally you become an adult at 18?

Only if you want to get pished, you can legally ruin your lungs at 16!

Prosecutions are normally reserved for those 18 and over but there have been quite a few 16 and 17 year olds prosecuted.

 

[gray1404]

The anytime day single is £20.00 on this journey (Route: Any Permitted). If you can convince them to take this in full and final settlement as they are dealing with parent then great. It looks to me like this letter might have been issued without a person dealing with it looking at it in too much detail. I.e. they see the "CHILD" ticket so send out the usual letter to the parent for when dealing with children as an invite to pay. What I am saying is that if you do not pay, it could get looked at in further depth when they are deciding what further action to take.

My concern then is that, as it stands now, if you pay up, that will be the end of it. However, if someone starts looking at it in more detail and they .realise that your son is in fact 16, they may then see that they can in fact treat him as an adult and start proceedings to take him to court.

My advise, try to get them to accept just the fare when you phone them next week, but failing that, pay up the sum they are asking for.

I wonder if this problem came to light when their ticket was checked, perhaps on a First Transpennie Express service, hence getting a letter from another First Group TOC. Maybe First Group are working centrally at GWR now on matters such as this.

 

[najaB]

The OPs son was 16 at the time of the offence so could very easily be prosecuted as an adult, something they want to be careful to avoid!

I agree that he could be prosecuted as an adult, but I think they'd probably choose not to.

 

[Kateg]

I thought I should offer return fare as the officer gave him a return ticket to get him home safe - that would only be fair. I'm dithering now as it seems possible that they have misread his age/ the rules and could in fact be assuming a minor - also Leeds won so we shouldn't bear a grudge - anyone know why gwr issued this letter?

 

[221129]

I thought I should offer return fare as the officer gave him a return ticket to get him home safe - that would only be fair. I'm dithering now as it seems possible that they have misread his age/ the rules and could in fact be assuming a minor - also Leeds won so we shouldn't bear a grudge - anyone know why gwr issued this letter?

I believe First Transpennine Express (and Hull Trains) use GWRs prosecutions unit.

 

[185143]

IIRC, GWR deal with all of FirstGroups investigations. TPE RPIs do indeed send their investigations down to them.

 

[455driver]

All First Group prosecutions are handled from Plymouth (I think) which is why it is GWR on the top of the letter.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I agree that he could be prosecuted as an adult, but I think they'd probably choose not to.

Would you take the risk?
I wouldn't because if it doesn't work it could be very expensive!

 

[PermitToTravel]

Only if you want to get pished, you can legally ruin your lungs at 16!

Hasn't been true for a good few years now

 

[najaB]

Would you take the risk?
I wouldn't because if it doesn't work it could be very expensive!

Oh, no. No chance I'd risk it! As I said above my advice is to either pay up the full amount requested (best idea as sure to make the matter go away) or offer to pay the full ticket price. Ignoring it isn't an option.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yorkie raises an interesting point (via PM for some reason) - since Burley Road has no ticketing facilities the OP's son couldn't be found guilty of a Byelaw offence. However, if he presented at the ticket barrier without means to pay then that could be taken as intent.

 

[gray1404]

I thought I should offer return fare as the officer gave him a return ticket to get him home safe - that would only be fair. I'm dithering now as it seems possible that they have misread his age/ the rules and could in fact be assuming a minor - also Leeds won so we shouldn't bear a grudge - anyone know why gwr issued this letter?

Please see my views above though about what I would do if they do not simply accept the offer of the fare (and then realise he's 16+, something they might have overlooked up to now)

It is up to you which of the many fares on that route you want to offer them. But it would be, I expect, the Route: Any Permitted ones that would apply if traveling on a First Transpennine Express service.

http://www.brfares.com/#expert?orig=BUY&dest=0438

The Anytime Return is £28.30. There are however Off Peak and Off Peak Day Return options however. I would personally offer the above.

On a wider point, it is a shame really that the person the son spoke to didn't issue an UPFN as this would have meant the fare could simply have been paid without this admin fee on top. In addion, I note a zero rated excess was issued for a return journey. It that normal as I'd only known zero excesses to be issued as singles for the journey currently being undertaken?