Why do you think *average* ticket prices would increase? I mean the average price paid by passengers to make a specific journey (which of course is not data we have access to).
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Travelled on the next available train (after cancellation) but being charged.
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Why do you think *average* ticket prices would increase? I mean the average price paid by passengers to make a specific journey (which of course is not data we have access to).
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
No, because you can't take *any* flight without rebooking your ticket - and proper airlines often do reroute passengers on other airlines.
Yes, it did. But the OP would have been in the same situation if it was a TOC-only walk-up ticket.
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If there are currently £5, £10 and £50 tickets available, how can removal of the £5 ticket not result in a higher average? (That's a genuine question - I'm trying to figure out how it could happen!)
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Jonfun
Established Member
And if there is doubt about the meaning of the term, the interpretation that favours the customer prevails.
Ergo, customers win. NajaB and JonFun lose
Stop talking nonsense. It's clear in the part of the conditions of carriage that I quoted from you have a contract with the TOCs you are entitled to use on your ticket. If you hold a TOC only ticket then you hold a contract with that TOC and no other and it is their responsibility to get you to your destination, not any others. How is there therefore any doubt about the matter? It's there in black and white.
If you want to start dishing out advice to potential travellers on this forum, that's fine. But if anyone takes your opinion that you can catch any operator's train on a TOC only ticket if your train's cancelled as gospel, then they'll end up being made to pay again, or worse, prosecuted.
I appreciate you genuinely think you're right and none of us are going to change that opinion - but I would warn anyone reading this thread that Yorkie et al's opinions are their own.
If confronted with this situation in real life, the passenger should show their ticket to a member of railway staff (such as the ticket office, or the conductor on the train you wish to catch in order to recommence your journey on, before the train departs) and seek advice.
I'm also going to continue to give that advice if the situation ever arises. I can't understand how some people think it's okay to board a train with a ticket that was only valid for another train without first obtaining permission to do so.
trainophile
Established Member
As previously acknowledged, a good proportion of rail passengers are not au fait with the complexities of ticket restrictions, especially those who don't travel very often.
Writing from the point of view of such a person (although as I use this forum I am a bit more clued up!), when I use a train ticket booking website I will naturally click on the top box that displays the cheapest fares for my intended journey and date of travel, and then select a suitably timed service from the options shown, often based purely on it being the cheapest, but sometimes to tie in with specific time requirements.
Unless I click on the 'information' icon alongside my selection, I probably won't even know which TOC I've chosen, until the train pulls into the station.
Although I will presumably have collected my ticket from a TOD machine, I probably won't have studied it in any detail. The idea of there being technical restrictions regarding my journey are unlikely to even cross my mind.
I then find that one of my series of trains is cancelled, and think that the obvious thing to do is to wait for the next one. It doesn't enter my head that this is not automatically permitted, or that I should seek permission (from whom?). I just want to get to my destination as close as possible to my intended time.
A good illustration of this lack of TOC knowledge occurs at Man Picc almost every time I catch a South Wales train from there. Due to platform sharing, there are more often than not at least a couple of people settling themselves on my ATW train when they should be on the TPE one in front.
Most people just want to get from A to B at their planned time, and don't care about the complications introduced by insider bickering.
And by the way, just how much does it cost a train to accommodate a few extra people on a journey it is making anyway?
Writing from the point of view of such a person (although as I use this forum I am a bit more clued up!), when I use a train ticket booking website I will naturally click on the top box that displays the cheapest fares for my intended journey and date of travel, and then select a suitably timed service from the options shown, often based purely on it being the cheapest, but sometimes to tie in with specific time requirements.
Unless I click on the 'information' icon alongside my selection, I probably won't even know which TOC I've chosen, until the train pulls into the station.
Although I will presumably have collected my ticket from a TOD machine, I probably won't have studied it in any detail. The idea of there being technical restrictions regarding my journey are unlikely to even cross my mind.
I then find that one of my series of trains is cancelled, and think that the obvious thing to do is to wait for the next one. It doesn't enter my head that this is not automatically permitted, or that I should seek permission (from whom?). I just want to get to my destination as close as possible to my intended time.
A good illustration of this lack of TOC knowledge occurs at Man Picc almost every time I catch a South Wales train from there. Due to platform sharing, there are more often than not at least a couple of people settling themselves on my ATW train when they should be on the TPE one in front.
Most people just want to get from A to B at their planned time, and don't care about the complications introduced by insider bickering.
And by the way, just how much does it cost a train to accommodate a few extra people on a journey it is making anyway?
I agree with the sentiment of what you are saying, but that doesn't affect the 'legalities' of the situation. While in many cases the guard on the second train would let you travel, if you ended up with a unpaid fare notice, a penalty fare or reported for prosecution there would be little you could do about it as they would (to my understanding) be correctly issued. Remember that as far as the second guard is concerned you are on a 'red' train with a 'blue' train only ticket.*
That is why, in the event of disruption, it is always a good idea for the infrequent traveller to check with staff.
*Other colours are available.
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So all that means your defence is ignorance of the rules in relation to the tickets you purchased after ticking the box to say you understand the terms and conditions!
Good luck arguing that one in Court!
We are not arguing the sensible options available but the legal options, the two are very different!
trainophile
Established Member
Ironically, the sort of person more likely to find themselves in this situation is the type who don't want to be a nuisance or bother anybody, and take a conscious decision to sort it out by themselves! Especially the more elderly, who are used to taking personal responsibility.
They are more likely to be given the benefit of the doubt though.
trainophile
Established Member
But we have already established that the rules pertaining to cancelled trains are unclear. Are passengers supposed to plough through page after page of the t&cs on the off-chance that their journey might not be as per the ticket that they purchased, through no fault of their own?
You know how annoying those booklets from the banks informating of changes to their t&cs are? And how you really only want to read in simple terms the bits that affect you personally - well rail passengers have similarly busy lives and don't see why they have to study War and Peace before embarking on what should be a straightforward train journey.
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I missed the nonsense and can see a lot of doubt - you might need to clarify. What's there in black and white does not say you cannot take the next train at all!
Well - are you going to try to report them for prosecution? yorkie's advice is always clearly worded in such a way as to steer well clear of any such risk, including on matters such as this. The rules are there and perhaps you're shocked that a lot of railway staff don't share your interpretation of them?
Just like yours! You do us all a service for pointing that out.
This isn't bad advice, but it's a rather onerous condition given most passengers enduring the stress of a cancelled train won't have their tickets on their mind but rather their destination. Instead, where a cancellation is known to be occurring staff should always be ready with a contingency.
I think we are roundly arguing over both. And the fact that you have to resort to telling trainophile her logic doesn't stand up in court when it's being given on a plate to you that's how basically everyone who uses the railway thinks rather shows whose side is winning!
The TOC that's running the train doesn't have to charge people or turn them away. They could try to reclaim the money from the operator who cancelled the train. But if they try to charge the customers rather than do their best and sort it out later, that tells me two things:
1. They aren't prioritising about their customers (something all TOCs will tell you they do)
2. They don't trust the other company to make it right if they take the initiative in accepting tickets
It's so funny that this issue has so many of you speaking out against the customer. It's no skin off my nose because I'd never end up in a situation where I might be in this kind of conflict with a member of revenue staff, but the vast majority of passengers could do as trainophile has pointed out. It really shows your true colours though that so many of you argue virulently against passenger rights. I do wonder if, say a major retailer treated you in the way you advocate you might continue to feel the same way.
They wouldn't. There's a little thing called elasticity that means it would affect the TOC's revenue in unknown (but highly likely unsustainable, otherwise they would have done it themselves already) ways.
Seriously? It isn't hard. Increase the availability of the £10 ticket relative to the £50 one. Remove the £50 tickets. Add some tickets for £25. Add some tickets for £7.50. Swap some ticket types around to make the cheaper ones more attractive. Emphasise marketing at the lower end more. There are almost an unlimited number of variables. You could still do it though simply by altering the ratios of the two remaining bands.
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johnnychips
Established Member
If anybody can be bothered to go back to the first post, one of the problems of this thread was the paucity of details provided by the OP, which didn't seem to be his fault.
Until I read through it all, I would have just assumed that a cancelled train on an advance or TOC specific ticket would mean you could catch any subsequent train - customer service and all that - and the TOCs could sort out any revenue loss between themselves, or operate on the basis that these incidents would cancel each other out.
Indeed, when a TPE train got stuck between Thorne and Doncaster recently, the 'man on the platform' at Doncaster (in this case a lady) told everyone to get on the XC train to Sheffield, then the EM train to Manchester, even though I had a TPE specific ticket. This was accepted on both trains without question. If I had had to wait for the next TPE train, this would have meant a further half hour delay, assuming that didn't get stuck as well.
I suspect that a lot of railway staff do use their common sense and discretion in such cases and communicate with each other.
Until I read through it all, I would have just assumed that a cancelled train on an advance or TOC specific ticket would mean you could catch any subsequent train - customer service and all that - and the TOCs could sort out any revenue loss between themselves, or operate on the basis that these incidents would cancel each other out.
Indeed, when a TPE train got stuck between Thorne and Doncaster recently, the 'man on the platform' at Doncaster (in this case a lady) told everyone to get on the XC train to Sheffield, then the EM train to Manchester, even though I had a TPE specific ticket. This was accepted on both trains without question. If I had had to wait for the next TPE train, this would have meant a further half hour delay, assuming that didn't get stuck as well.
I suspect that a lot of railway staff do use their common sense and discretion in such cases and communicate with each other.
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Jonfun
Established Member
I'm not trained to report anyone for prosecution. That's for a revenue protection inspector to deal with. As far as I can see, every member of railway staff who has contributed to this thread has said that ticket acceptance, whilst it may be agreed and often is, isn't automatic on the basis of one cancellation.
We're not speaking out against the customer. Assuming we're TOC A, and they hold a TOC B only ticket. They aren't a customer, because they haven't got a ticket to travel on our trains! I will damn well defend passengers rights as far as is necessary when appropriate, but this is not one of those situations. With rights come responsibilities - again stated in the conditions of carriage - and when you buy a cheaper ticket you agree to the conditions imposed. Can you explain what you mean by a major retailer treating us in the same way? If I am in dispute with Tesco's, are you suggesting it becomes Sainsbury's problem to sort out?
Again, for the avoidance of doubt, any potential passenger reading this thread at a later date looking for advice on the best course of action: show your ticket to a member of staff - ideally the conductor on the train you are intending to catch to continue your journey, or the ticket office - and seek advice from them as to how to complete your journey within the restrictions on your ticket and any relaxations that have been put into place due to disruption.
trainophile
Established Member
It muddies the waters that all TOC's websites sell tickets for all operators, thus reinforcing the impression that our contract is with "the railways", rather than with TOC A, B etc.
I'm in the habit of automatically using VTEC's website for almost all my bookings, of which a very small minority actually involve a VTEC train. Nowhere in the booking operation is it flagged up to me that if my Arriva train is cancelled I must take the next available ARRIVA service.
I'm in the habit of automatically using VTEC's website for almost all my bookings, of which a very small minority actually involve a VTEC train. Nowhere in the booking operation is it flagged up to me that if my Arriva train is cancelled I must take the next available ARRIVA service.
And yet it's the elderly that got us into this mess, by voting for the privatising Tories.
You are adding additional ticket price bands, not simply removing the cheapest TOC-restricted ones. The inter-available tickets aren't currently volume limited so there's no way to 'make more available'.
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In practice that's exactly what happens, however it is *not* automatic, there is no right to travel on the next train, and the operator of that train is under no obligation to carry you.
To yorkie specifically: as a mod of this forum, and a fares advisor - is it your advice that someone holding an Advance (or other TOC restricted) ticket should, if their booked train is cancelled, board any train that will get them to their destination regardless of the operator, without first obtaining permission or authority to do so?
The critical point is the *average* fare paid by passengers. We have no way of knowing whether that is higher or lower now than in the past because we don't know how many of each ticket was/is sold. Remember that TOC's (and BR) did not introduce cheap restricted tickets out of the kindness of their hearts. They did it to increase profits. People who have to buy long distance anytime tickets (such as frequent business travellers like myself) certainly pay much more now than in the past.
Again, true but irrelevant. Prices of pretty much everything are higher now than they were in 1997.
The question I asked is how the single act of removing the lower tier of fares can result in lower average fares being paid.
What exactly is irrelevant? To whom is it irrelevant? I am obviously taking inflation into account, and not necessarily talking about 1997.
If removing a lower tier of fares is a single act, then of course it can't result in the average fare paid by passengers on a train being lower. If the quotas are also changed (which is invisible to us so may have happened in the case in question) then it could.
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Well you mentioned BR in your post and they stopped being relevant as far as fare setting is concerned in 1997.
There are no quotas for fully inter-available tickets. Only Advances and TOC-specific tickets are quota based. If a ticket is valid on any train, on any operator (ignoring time restrictions) how can there be a quota?
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
TOC specific walk up tickets are not quota controlled either.
For what it's worth, it's been pointed out to me (via PM) that there's one example that is.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Not a real walk up ticket then. Some TOCs offer Advances on the day of travel, these are still Advances. And things like LM Great Escapes are special offers, not regular tickets.
I agree with that assessment, others would not. Would you say that it's fair to say that no ticket solely restricted by time of day is (or could be) quota controlled?
And since quota controlled tickets which are limited to train or TOC are normally the lowest-priced tickets for a given flow, removing them can only result in average fare paid increasing?
(I suppose in Theoryland prices could remain the same if nobody currently buys the cheap tickets.)
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Wallsendmag
Established Member
There are quotas for walk up tickets just they aren't limited usually but I've seen some recently that are
Legitimate question: how does that work?
Wallsendmag
Established Member
There are some trains running between certain points that reservations are barred to walk up tickets although you can make a reservation with an advance ticket. Obviously you can still get on without a reservation .
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Yes. Seat reservations with such tickets can be quota controlled AIUI, but there is none on their sale, nor really can there be other than by day of validity because you can just buy one for one train and use it on another (within the restrictions).
If that was the only thing you did, yes. But in practice such a change could be made revenue neutral by careful calculation, which would probably include a small reduction in the higher, non-quota-controlled, fare. OTOH, that is not the only effect - somebody who purchases a £10 Advance may not travel at all if a £50 walk up is the only option, and reducing it to £45 may not change that, so in practice if such a change reduced the number of passengers (some being scared off, others paying the higher fare instead) the average fare *paid* would increase, even though the overall *turnover* may not.
It's not really as simple as either case, IOW.
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Yes, *reservations* can be quota controlled, but the absence of a reservation does not cause someone not to travel on that train. Thus it isn't a restriction on a walk-up ticket in and of itself.
An odd example is on Virgin West Coast, where advance-purchase (but valid on any VWC train that day, and no cheaper than purchased on the day) Weekend First can be added - but only on some trains. They are not offered on trains that would be operated by Voyagers.
However, that oddity excepted, there is no discouragement to avoid trains where the reservation quota is full for that walk-up fare, because you don't find out you're not getting a reservation until the last step of the process, by which point most passengers won't be bothered to go back and change their selection.
Agreed, but the point I was making earlier in the thread (which was hotly disputed) is that removing Advance and TOC-specific tickets would only be likely to result in higher average ticket prices, even if it was revenue neutral overall.
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