Liverpool to Norwich - Direct Services

[Class 170101]

I think there should be a second train covering this route.

However I think it should be interchangeable with XC
So
Norwich to Liverpool 1tph
Stansted to Birmingham 1tph
Birmingham to Norwich 1tph
Liverpool to Cambridge (Stansted) 1tph
Norwich to Cambridge 1tph all stations and 1tph fast for Thetford, Ely and Cambridge only (Stansted extensions 1tph)

 

[TheBigD]

EMT ran a test run to Norwich in 222013 in 2009 - it proved to be too slow in the sections of track with MU speeds south of Peterborough, so they've never ran in passenger service past there.
222s are cleared to Cambridge - this comes from when Hull Trains used to divert via there - I've even seen a photo of a 222 in one of the bay platforms there!

The test run showed that the 45mph limit between Ely North Jcn and Lakenheath, which adds about 7 minutes, was the major issue... Going towards Norwich it wasn't a major issue but coming back from Norwich it causes problems at both Ely North Jcn and Ely with conflicts regarding the BHM-SSD service, the KGX-KLN service and the IPS-PBO service...

 

[Haydn1971]

There is a 158 knocking around that has come from South West Trains - which is a far more pleasant train than anything EMT has!

You mean the one that has broken seats ?

 

[Jonfun]

I didn't spot any broken seats when I was on it last, though I hasten to add, I don't spend my journeys examining each and every seat. It is much nicer internally than the EMT examples, having a better ambiance, more comfortable seating, and better luggage storage space. The downside of course is that the seating layout doesn't match the EMT examples meaning reserved seats aren't.

 

[LowLevel]

It does have a few worn ones and some of the first class ones are probably broken at least in terms of recliners. It's a god send in terms of luggage space on busy trains though. It's about due an overhaul as it happens, they're going through Brush now so it does look a little worn.

It does a job but while I personally think it's brilliant to work (we have room in the aisle again!!!) its definitely a bit rough around the edges, not helped by spares having to be sent from Salisbury when required and the cabs are rubbish with old style seats etc.

 

[dk1]

Just out of interest, what stock operated this route before the 158's back in the BR RR days?

The actual origin of the current Norwich-Liverpool dates back to May 1985. It was launched as an 08:15 Yarmouth-Liverpool (09:00 Norwich) & 10:45 Liverpool-Yarmouth (17:04 Norwich) & was basically just an add on to the Sheffield-Liverpool hourly service. It was formed mostly of 5 early mark 2s & a 31 & operated via Ely West Curve. It didn't operate on a Sunday.

 

[nottinghamcity]

A five car 222 would currently offer about 40 seats less than a four car EMT 158 - no thanks, someone else can have them

I was rather hoping XC could have them for reinforcing voyager services on the core routes through BHM, and maybe replacing the 170s on the Nottingham cardiff and Leicester - Birmingham runs where both speed and capacity improvements would be welcome

 

[Haydn1971]

I didn't spot any broken seats when I was on it last, though I hasten to add, I don't spend my journeys examining each and every seat.

Most of the first class seats are in poor working order, some are physically broken and one is so knackered you can't sit in anything but fully reclined mode.

It is much nicer internally than the EMT examples, having a better ambiance,

You must have very rose tinted spectacles, there's very little difference between them except for the seats... Which brings me to...

more comfortable seating, and better luggage storage space. The downside of course is that the seating layout doesn't match the EMT examples meaning reserved seats aren't.

I'd personally disagree on the seats, I find them too reclined generally leaving me with insufficient leg room. Firmer more upright seating is my preference on trains and cars, soft soggy sofa style seating my preference at home watching TV and relaxing

 

[6Gman]

I think there should be a second train covering this route.

However I think it should be interchangeable with XC
So
Norwich to Liverpool 1tph
Stansted to Birmingham 1tph
Birmingham to Norwich 1tph
Liverpool to Cambridge (Stansted) 1tph
Norwich to Cambridge 1tph all stations and 1tph fast for Thetford, Ely and Cambridge only (Stansted extensions 1tph)

Wouldn't that create problems fitting freight in between Ely and P'boro?

 

[dk1]

Today i caught the 07:24 Brundall Gardens-Norwich, 07:57 Norwich-Peterborough, 09:46 Peterborough-York, 14:02 York-Peterborough, 15:40 Peterborough-Norwich & 17:36 Norwich-Brundall Gardens. On the basis of each carriage the busiest where the 07:57 after Ely, 09:46, & 17:36 but by far the most crowded however was the 15:40 Pbo-Nrw. Just goes to show doesn't it.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Likewise my 0957 off Norwich was pretty well loaded with folk seated in the aisles. Roughly half the train seemed to be heading north of the central belt in Scotland as well. Attached is a photo of my well stacked extra luggage rack.

 

[trentside]

It does have a few worn ones and some of the first class ones are probably broken at least in terms of recliners. It's a god send in terms of luggage space on busy trains though. It's about due an overhaul as it happens, they're going through Brush now so it does look a little worn.

It does a job but while I personally think it's brilliant to work (we have room in the aisle again!!!) its definitely a bit rough around the edges, not helped by spares having to be sent from Salisbury when required and the cabs are rubbish with old style seats etc.

And you can't just chuck your Avantix bag on the secondmans desk. Not unless you want to be sat wondering why you can't get brake release...

 

[mike57]

I use the Warrington Central - Sheffield leg occasionally. Journey time at 1h20m approx is pretty good, driving means M60 + Woodhead or Snake pass, so plenty of opportunity for delays, train wins hands down. OK so 158's have been around a while, but the EMT examples seem to be lighter and more pleasent than Northern examples. In terms of loading this bit of the Norwich - Liverpool service seems to be busy but not overfull at the times I travel, I tend to be travelling around lunchtime, so what rush hour is like I dont know.

 

[childwallblues]

I use the Warrington Central - Sheffield leg occasionally. Journey time at 1h20m approx is pretty good, driving means M60 + Woodhead or Snake pass, so plenty of opportunity for delays, train wins hands down. OK so 158's have been around a while, but the EMT examples seem to be lighter and more pleasent than Northern examples. In terms of loading this bit of the Norwich - Liverpool service seems to be busy but not overfull at the times I travel, I tend to be travelling around lunchtime, so what rush hour is like I dont know.

I use the 0657 Liverpool South Parkway to Sheffield on a regular basis. The busiest sections are Warrington Central to Oxford Road and Stockport to Sheffield. Returning on the 1442 or 1542 Oxford Road to Liverpool South Parkway are easily the busiest.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think there should be a second train covering this route.
However I think it should be interchangeable with XC, So
Norwich to Liverpool 1tph
Stansted to Birmingham 1tph
Birmingham to Norwich 1tph
Liverpool to Cambridge (Stansted) 1tph
Norwich to Cambridge 1tph all stations and 1tph fast for Thetford, Ely and Cambridge only (Stansted extensions 1tph)

4tph Ely-Peterborough? Plus GA services?
I'm not sure the CLC route can take any more trains, and the Hope Valley is iffy until resignalled and Dore doubled.
I think we need more seats more than new routes.
I would also have said Birmingham-Stansted is in greater need than Nottingham-Norwich.
Trains could also attach/divide at Peterborough or Ely (shock! horror!).

 

[70014IronDuke]

4tph Ely-Peterborough? Plus GA services?
..

Don't forget the new 1 TPH Wisbech - Cambridge and ditto Wisbech - Peterborough trains.

Stock? Paths? Crews? Revenues? Don't worry, it's been suggested here, so must work. Merry Christmas

 

[fowler9]

4tph Ely-Peterborough? Plus GA services?
I'm not sure the CLC route can take any more trains, and the Hope Valley is iffy until resignalled and Dore doubled.
I think we need more seats more than new routes.
I would also have said Birmingham-Stansted is in greater need than Nottingham-Norwich.
Trains could also attach/divide at Peterborough or Ely (shock! horror!).

I understand that the CLC is loosing Trans Pennine services so there would be a slot there. Otherwise it is certainly full at the minute.

 

[edwin_m]

I understand that the CLC is loosing Trans Pennine services so there would be a slot there. Otherwise it is certainly full at the minute.

CLC will be getting a "Northern Connect" linking Liverpool with Manchester Airport to replace the TPE service and keep two fast trains per hour. The capacity issue here is down to the mix of fast and slow trains both of which are very necessary, so nothing short of electrification (to speed up the slow trains) would help very much.

 

[Haydn1971]

I think we need more seats more than new routes.

Absolutely ! I'm tired of being told our railway is full* when we've multiple regional and local services plodding around with trains shorter than the platforms.

* We still need HS2 though !

 

[northwichcat]

Absolutely ! I'm tired of being told our railway is full* when we've multiple regional and local services plodding around with trains shorter than the platforms.

* We still need HS2 though !

I can't believe in 2019 Hazel Grove is to get a service every 15 minutes from Manchester, yet half of those services won't continue beyond Hazel Grove, at the same time we've been told there won't be a path available for a 3rd fast Manchester to Sheffield service every hour. A peak time frequency of 3tph to Buxton and 3tph to Sheffield and no services terminating at Hazel Grove would be a far better use of paths.

 

[Haydn1971]

I can't believe in 2019 Hazel Grove is to get a service every 15 minutes from Manchester, yet half of those services won't continue beyond Hazel Grove, at the same time we've been told there won't be a path available for a 3rd fast Manchester to Sheffield service every hour. A peak time frequency of 3tph to Buxton and 3tph to Sheffield and no services terminating at Hazel Grove would be a far better use of paths.

Don't worry, those pesky four car 158's will be replaced with brand new 185's offering a spacious 2.25 worth of standing space, all seats removed as passengers can't agree if airline or table seat are best, so plush vinyl flooring will be provided as a compromise with extra copies of Metro for an added luxurious feel

Seriously though, what's the restriction preventing a third fast train along the hope valley ? Is it Dore-Sheffield or Picadilly-Levenshulme ? Are we starting to reach the stage where London Bridge type solutions are required, ie fly unders/overs or could the signalling be improved ? Or just, we need HS2 so we can remove the 390's

 

[Bletchleyite]

While the Hope Valley still contains stupid little short DMUs, why is there the need? Get them all to at least 8 cars then worry about it.

 

[fowler9]

CLC will be getting a "Northern Connect" linking Liverpool with Manchester Airport to replace the TPE service and keep two fast trains per hour. The capacity issue here is down to the mix of fast and slow trains both of which are very necessary, so nothing short of electrification (to speed up the slow trains) would help very much.

Yeah mate I know exactly what the capacity issue is down to on the CLC. I use it daily. If an additional Northern Connect service is being added it will increase the log jam certainly during the morning and evening peak.

 

[Haydn1971]

While the Hope Valley still contains stupid little short DMUs, why is there the need? Get them all to at least 8 cars then worry about it.

Whilst I'd echo that sentiment, the "semi-fast" services don't offer a great choice in peak from the reasonably popular stations of Dore and Chinley and bugger all in the daytime unless you catch the all station stopper that runs every two hours.

On a personal level, I can either do a 7, 8 or 9hr day, I can't get to work in Manchester before 7:45am and I can't stay late after 5:20pm - flexible working, half days, part days, accommodating doctors, hospitals and dentists just aren't possible without working the whole day from home. There's dozens of people do the same trip on my choice of train each day, perhaps 100's over the four semi-fast units, many complain that they can't get the later trains from Dore as they are full, I tend to avoid the 16:39 from Oxford Road as its usually very busy and wouldn't contemplate the xx:20 from Picadilly as I don't fancy the punch up to get a seat each night.

So yes, longer trains are the way to go, but an extra semi-fast in the peak hours and perhaps one through the day in the opposite hour to the stopper would enhance the terrible service between Sheffield and Manchester's suburb and central stations. I'm sure similar poor consistency services are rampant across the nation, but this route is well travelled by myself, so I'm familiar with the annoyances, just as I was with the lacklustre Meadowhall-Leeds services.

 

[fowler9]

Whilst I'd echo that sentiment, the "semi-fast" services don't offer a great choice in peak from the reasonably popular stations of Dore and Chinley and bugger all in the daytime unless you catch the all station stopper that runs every two hours.

On a personal level, I can either do a 7, 8 or 9hr day, I can't get to work in Manchester before 7:45am and I can't stay late after 5:20pm - flexible working, half days, part days, accommodating doctors, hospitals and dentists just aren't possible without working the whole day from home. There's dozens of people do the same trip on my choice of train each day, perhaps 100's over the four semi-fast units, many complain that they can't get the later trains from Dore as they are full, I tend to avoid the 16:39 from Oxford Road as its usually very busy and wouldn't contemplate the xx:20 from Picadilly as I don't fancy the punch up to get a seat each night.

So yes, longer trains are the way to go, but an extra semi-fast in the peak hours and perhaps one through the day in the opposite hour to the stopper would enhance the terrible service between Sheffield and Manchester's suburb and central stations. I'm sure similar poor consistency services are rampant across the nation, but this route is well travelled by myself, so I'm familiar with the annoyances, just as I was with the lacklustre Meadowhall-Leeds services.

Forgive me but I don't think commuting that distance on a regular basis is healthy for yourself or the planet. We need to stop this kind of thing happening on such a large scale. Not blaming you here by the way mate but we need a huge change in the way business is done or the size of the human race.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Hope Valley has low-capacity signalling and poor connections at either end. It also has enough freight to cause pathing problems.
The eastern end is due to be upgraded during MML electrification, with Dore redoubling and a freight loop, but there are no plans for the western end.
Through trains to Liverpool have to go via Stockport - the Romiley route is OK for Piccadilly but NR are not going to let through trains go that way and repeat the TP North problems the Ordsall Chord is being built to solve.
The CLC has no proper overtaking capability at the obvious point (Warrington), and the Chat Moss is getting full.
Also, I would have thought TP South has a stronger call for an extra Hope Valley path than EMT, or even an extra Northern stopper to make an hourly service.

 

[Haydn1971]

Forgive me but I don't think commuting that distance on a regular basis is healthy for yourself or the planet. We need to stop this kind of thing happening on such a large scale. Not blaming you here by the way mate but we need a huge change in the way business is done or the size of the human race.

Indeed, I'd love to work at an office in Sheffield but as a Civil Engineer who specialises in Traffic Engineering and Operational Safety, my choices are kinda limited to Manchester or Leeds with the odd option scattered around or a job (in constant redundancy risk) that pays £10k less in local government.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Also, I would have thought TP South has a stronger call for an extra Hope Valley path than EMT, or even an extra Northern stopper to make an hourly service.

Doesn't matter to me who provides, just as long as it's useful

 

[fowler9]

Indeed, I'd love to work at an office in Sheffield but as a Civil Engineer who specialises in Traffic Engineering and Operational Safety, my choices are kinda limited to Manchester or Leeds with the odd option scattered around or a job (in constant redundancy risk) that pays £10k less in local government.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



Doesn't matter to me who provides, just as long as it's useful

Kind of sums it up, you work in traffic engineering and are forced to make a mad commute. Ha ha. All the very best anyway chief. Like I say I am not having a go at you for having to make the commute.

 

[Haydn1971]

Kind of sums it up, you work in traffic engineering and are forced to make a mad commute. Ha ha. All the very best anyway chief. Like I say I am not having a go at you for having to make the commute.

Oh you don't know the half of it, I worked on the ill fated Mottram Tintwistle bypass in 2001 too ! Haha.

 

[ivanhoe]

The Hope Valley has low-capacity signalling and poor connections at either end. It also has enough freight to cause pathing problems.
The eastern end is due to be upgraded during MML electrification, with Dore redoubling and a freight loop, but there are no plans for the western end.
Through trains to Liverpool have to go via Stockport - the Romiley route is OK for Piccadilly but NR are not going to let through trains go that way and repeat the TP North problems the Ordsall Chord is being built to solve.
The CLC has no proper overtaking capability at the obvious point (Warrington), and the Chat Moss is getting full.
Also, I would have thought TP South has a stronger call for an extra Hope Valley path than EMT, or even an extra Northern stopper to make an hourly service.

It looks like until the signalling is upgraded, any talk of extra trains is pie in the sky. Sheffield to Manchester/Liverpool needs extra or strengthened fast trains. The distance between Sheffield and Manchester is not great but the journey times are a tad slow, given that there are no fast road links between the two cities. Won't see any significant changes for a few years yet though.