Could we see more Leeds To Birmingham services?

[Mr Mean]

I used this route recently. Very overcrowded services with a poor frequency - hourly for most of the day. I know there are connections at Sheffield but I, like many, don't like connections.

Is there room on the network for a more frequent Leeds to Birmingham service? I don't mean additional calls from the XC service that routes through Doncaster, but a separate half hourly service?

For me, this is one of the big wins of HS2 - not London - but much improved connectivity between Leeds and Birmingham.

 

[yorkie]

It's difficult to envisage such a service running in addition to all the existing services.

It would mean an increase from 4tph to 5tph between Birmingham and Derby, the same increase for the section of line between Derby and Chesterfield (one not calling at the latter) and an increase from 6tph to 7tph north of Chesterfield.

 

[dk1]

I used this route recently. Very overcrowded services with a poor frequency - hourly for most of the day. I know there are connections at Sheffield but I, like many, don't like connections.

Is there room on the network for a more frequent Leeds to Birmingham service? I don't mean additional calls from the XC service that routes through Doncaster, but a separate half hourly service?.

XC did want to divert at least every other Reading-Newcastle via Leeds but think you'll find that this was turned down by DfT mate.

 

[yorkie]

Yes, he's asking for an additional service on top of the existing services.

 

[Bevan Price]

I used this route recently. Very overcrowded services with a poor frequency - hourly for most of the day. I know there are connections at Sheffield but I, like many, don't like connections.

Is there room on the network for a more frequent Leeds to Birmingham service? I don't mean additional calls from the XC service that routes through Doncaster, but a separate half hourly service?

For me, this is one of the big wins of HS2 - not London - but much improved connectivity between Leeds and Birmingham.

A better solution would be much longer trains - instant capacity increase without needing more paths. .

 

[edwin_m]

For me, this is one of the big wins of HS2 - not London - but much improved connectivity between Leeds and Birmingham.

I think that's right - Leeds-Birmingham must have about the biggest proportional journey time benefit from HS2, mainly because it's pretty slow at present! The recent new proposal for the HS2 Leeds station includes the possibility of HS2 trains transferring to the existing line, which could allow trains between Birmingham and Newcastle to call at Leeds as well. I think this will result in the classic route having a similar service to today, but mainly for intermediate stations and those continuing beyond Birmingham or possibly beyond Leeds.

However I'm pessimistic about any improvements before that, other than perhaps a few more HSTs in a few years time. It isn't part of any electrification scheme and with the delays to existing schemes even if it was announced tomorrow it wouldn't be finished until maybe 2025. It's unlikely anyone will want to consider a major service uplift on the existing route at that time when HS2 will take many of the passengers away a few years later. And if there is no electrification, I don't see much scope in a similar timeframe for a new build of high-speed diesels or even for West Coast to release 221s.

 

[Class 170101]

I think that's right - Leeds-Birmingham must have about the biggest proportional journey time benefit from HS2, mainly because it's pretty slow at present! The recent new proposal for the HS2 Leeds station includes the possibility of HS2 trains transferring to the existing line, which could allow trains between Birmingham and Newcastle to call at Leeds as well. I think this will result in the classic route having a similar service to today, but mainly for intermediate stations and those continuing beyond Birmingham or possibly beyond Leeds.

Unfortunately there yet to be any similar connections provided between HS2 and New Street even though I understand one of the eastern routes into New Street will be parallel / close to HS2 into Curazon Street.

However would it not be better though for a 'local' service between New Street and Leeds, with classic compatible HS trains running between Plymouth / Bristol and Newcastle / Edinburgh using the HS2 between Birmingham and Leeds / York?

However I'm pessimistic about any improvements before that, other than perhaps a few more HSTs in a few years time. It isn't part of any electrification scheme and with the delays to existing schemes even if it was announced tomorrow it wouldn't be finished until maybe 2025. It's unlikely anyone will want to consider a major service uplift on the existing route at that time when HS2 will take many of the passengers away a few years later. And if there is no electrification, I don't see much scope in a similar timeframe for a new build of high-speed diesels or even for West Coast to release 221s.

Even from now HS2 to Leeds and York is at least 15 (and probably 20) years away. Extra capacity is needed now whether it be a third path, ECML HSTs releasing Voyagers to run in pairs, (Hitachi)bi-modes or any combination of all three.

 

[edwin_m]

However would it not be better though for a 'local' service between New Street and Leeds, with classic compatible HS trains running between Plymouth / Bristol and Newcastle / Edinburgh using the HS2 between Birmingham and Leeds / York?

In an ideal world yes, but that would require electrification between Birmingham and Bristol and probably beyond. I hope they've left provision in the design to add a connection at Birmingham when this happens.

 

[Class 170101]

I think Derby to Bristol will happen towards the end of Control Period 6 (2019 - 2024) but more likely at the beginning of Control Period 7 which takes us to 2024 - 2029.

 

[Starmill]

One way to offer more services would be to divert some that currently go via Doncaster via Leeds, as the 1505 Newcastle to Reading currently does.

This might have certain disadvantages, but XC must think it worthwhile to try to divert the small number of second hourly services that they do!

XC did want to divert at least every other Reading-Newcastle via Leeds but think you'll find that this was turned down by DfT mate.

Indeed. Given the importance of Leeds <> Sheffield to the 'Northern Powerhouse' and the lucrative nature of Leeds in comparison with the relatively small Doncaster, watch this space!

 

[IanXC]

One way to offer more services would be to divert some that currently go via Doncaster via Leeds, as the 1505 Newcastle to Reading currently does.

This might have certain disadvantages, but XC must think it worthwhile to try to divert the small number of second hourly services that they do!



Indeed. Given the importance of Leeds <> Sheffield to the 'Northern Powerhouse' and the lucrative nature of Leeds in comparison with the relatively small Doncaster, watch this space!

Doncaster has a very significant catchment though... It's not just the town itself to think of.

As I understand it the reason more services do not run via Leeds is availability of paths - presumably the Northern Leeds-Sheffield going via Wakefield Westgate is not going to improve this situation! Although it will help to address the Leeds-Sheffield service level.

 

[brompton rail]

Doncaster has a very significant catchment though... It's not just the town itself to think of.

As I understand it the reason more services do not run via Leeds is availability of paths - presumably the Northern Leeds-Sheffield going via Wakefield Westgate is not going to improve this situation! Although it will help to address the Leeds-Sheffield service level.

Only problem with Nottingham - Leeds being diverted via Wakefield Westgate and extending to Bradford, is that a timetable recast is needed to bring a real advance to Leeds - Sheffield services and frequency. If the current service is just diverted you will get departures from Sheffield at xx.18 and xx.21 going via Wakefield, and arrivals from Leeds into Sheffield at around xx.53 and xx.03. A half hourly service at say.. Xx.21 and xx.52 from Sheffield northwards and arriving at xx.53 and xx. 27 from Leeds, would be the ideal. However this would be out of sinc with EMT Liverpool - Norwich (both directions) and any recast would have a huge impact over a big area. TPE South Pennines would need to move too in order to maintain a half hourly Manchester - Sheffield frequency.

It will be interesting to see what actually happens! I'll put my money on there not being a big recast at all.

 

[edwin_m]

Only problem with Nottingham - Leeds being diverted via Wakefield Westgate and extending to Bradford, is that a timetable recast is needed to bring a real advance to Leeds - Sheffield services and frequency. If the current service is just diverted you will get departures from Sheffield at xx.18 and xx.21 going via Wakefield, and arrivals from Leeds into Sheffield at around xx.53 and xx.03. A half hourly service at say.. Xx.21 and xx.52 from Sheffield northwards and arriving at xx.53 and xx. 27 from Leeds, would be the ideal. However this would be out of sinc with EMT Liverpool - Norwich (both directions) and any recast would have a huge impact over a big area. TPE South Pennines would need to move too in order to maintain a half hourly Manchester - Sheffield frequency.

It will be interesting to see what actually happens! I'll put my money on there not being a big recast at all.

Although this is unfortunate it may at least get people off the (usually crowded) XC service by providing something that has a similar journey time and almost certainly better comfort. I think it's still the case that the Nottingham-Leeds via Barnsley is overtaken each hour by the XC, so a lot of passengers between Sheffield and Leeds probably go for the faster train. Also "flighting" the new trains with the XC may be the only way to fit them in between other services as both the S&K and the Doncaster-Leeds line are pretty busy.

Hopefully the Northern Connect Lincoln-Leeds will run near to the opposite half hour, giving a half-hourly combined frequency. This one will be slower due to taking the Barnsley route, but if the rather complicated timetable on that line can be suitably adjusted, a new 100mph DMU might shave a few minutes off 158 timings.

 

[Haydn1971]

I think it's still the case that the Nottingham-Leeds via Barnsley is overtaken each hour by the XC, so a lot of passengers between Sheffield and Leeds probably go for the faster train.

The XC service has a huge disadvantage for some Sheffield-Leeds trips in that it doesn't call at Meadowhall where there is a big free car park. I've said this so many times, city centre stations are useless for anyone who needs to use a car to travel from home to the railway station because of the £15 a day parking costs. Parkway and out of town stations excel as feeder stations for daily commuters and the high use of XC service between Sheffield and Leeds is only as a direct result of a otherwise rubbish alternative provided by regional/local rail where Meadowhall to Leeds can take longer than Meadowhall-Sheffield-Leeds.

 

[edwin_m]

The XC service has a huge disadvantage for some Sheffield-Leeds trips in that it doesn't call at Meadowhall where there is a big free car park. I've said this so many times, city centre stations are useless for anyone who needs to use a car to travel from home to the railway station because of the £15 a day parking costs. Parkway and out of town stations excel as feeder stations for daily commuters and the high use of XC service between Sheffield and Leeds is only as a direct result of a otherwise rubbish alternative provided by regional/local rail where Meadowhall to Leeds can take longer than Meadowhall-Sheffield-Leeds.

No doubt if it called at Meadowhalll the XC would be even fuller than it is now, not only with travellers arriving there by car but with shoppers. I imagine the Northern Connect trains will call there, as the current fast(ish) services via Barnsley do. If and when HS2 serves Meadowhall then I would guess all classic services will call there including the successor of XC.

 

[Starmill]

Doncaster has a very significant catchment though... It's not just the town itself to think of.

As I understand it the reason more services do not run via Leeds is availability of paths - presumably the Northern Leeds-Sheffield going via Wakefield Westgate is not going to improve this situation! Although it will help to address the Leeds-Sheffield service level.

Swings and roundabouts! Leeds has a lot of connections too just like Doncaster, but a much more active economy and organic passenger base. Plus, passengers interchanging from North Lincs wouldn't lose out because they are keeping their direct Sheffield service. So on terms of connections at Doncaster that just leaves... on yeah East Yorkshire :P

I agree it's more than likely a pathing issue, but it's probably as much down to Leeds - Micklefield as it is to Leeds - Fitzwilliam now. On Sunday XC even squash some services in via Leeds and Doncaster, but of course that takes forever. No easy solutions.

Oftentimes throughout the day it is possible to get a good connection at Doncaster into the fast Birmingham XC from the Leeds > Kings Cross services. If the capacity problem were solved on XC (yes, I know...) say by having the same number of sets as at present but all 8-car (and I genuinely don't believe there would be much over-capacity in that) many of the problems with Leeds <> Birmingham would start to recede. As it is, I'm just glad I don't have to travel between Yorkshire and the West Midlands often. Going via Manchester is often little slower too - but then both of those legs have their own unique capacity challenges with which one is far too well acquainted!

 

[Class 170101]

Doncaster has a very significant catchment though... It's not just the town itself to think of.

As I understand it the reason more services do not run via Leeds is availability of paths - presumably the Northern Leeds-Sheffield going via Wakefield Westgate is not going to improve this situation! Although it will help to address the Leeds-Sheffield service level.

Also it is politically unacceptable. The Eureka timetable that was published by NR in respect of East Coast showed more XC services via Leeds. XC got cold feet when it was published apparently.

 

[adrock1976]

Could a workaround be that for the Newcastle Central - Reading services be run with double 220/221s between Reading and Sheffield Midland, with one portion continuing to NCL via Doncaster as present, and the other portion continuing to Hull Paragon calling at either Barnsley or Wakefield Westgate, Leeds City, South Milford, Selby, Gilberdyke or Howden, Brough, and Hull Paragon?

 

[Class 170101]

It would be unrelaible in the reverse direction as you would inevitably be waiting for one of the portions to either turn up or run without it if its late at Sheffield.