Travelled on the next available train (after cancellation) but being charged.

[najaB]

How can you say that cancellation of the train which someone is intending to catch is anything other than a problem which interrupts that person's attempts to reach their destination ?

Sorry, I left three words out of my statement: "But one train being cancelled does not constitute a time of disruption so the quote above does not come into it."
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The above post suggests that at the very least, there is a clarification required. I, as a non-railway professional, would certainly interpret it as giving permission to travel on the next train, regardless of TOC.

I'm all for clarification. Especially as the T&C's need updating to conform with the new ticket design anyway (no 'Route' field).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry, I left three words out of my statement: "But one train being cancelled does not constitute a time of disruption so the quote above does not come into it."

It does in terms of an Advance ticket - whether one train is cancelled or ten trains, the train that the ticket was originally valid on has still been cancelled.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm all for clarification. Especially as the T&C's need updating to conform with the new ticket design anyway (no 'Route' field).

Just so long as the T&C's are clarified correctly to ensure that TOC's aren't allowed to weasel out of their duty to assist passengers during disruption, regardless of which company they originally booked with.

 

[sheff1]

I'm all for clarification. Especially as the T&C's need updating to conform with the new ticket design anyway (no 'Route' field).

No mention of a TOC anywhere on these tickets. Which means, under the current NRCoC, an Advance ticket of the new design is not restricted to trains of a particular TOC or TOCs if the train on which you are booked (which is shown) is cancelled.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No mention of a TOC anywhere on these tickets

There is under the reservations, is there not?

 

[sheff1]

There is under the reservations, is there not?

Not on the tickets I have had. Perhaps there is on some.

 

[najaB]

Not on the tickets I have had. Perhaps there is on some.

There is indeed (sometimes): post from the other thread.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just so long as the T&C's are clarified correctly to ensure that TOC's aren't allowed to weasel out of their duty to assist passengers during disruption, regardless of which company they originally booked with.

The only duty (legal, not moral) that TOC's have under the NRCoC is if the customer would otherwise be stranded.

As a matter of practice, they will more often than not allow travel as long as it is authorised beforehand.

 

[sheff1]

There is indeed (sometimes): post from the other thread.

Fair enough. My new design Advance tickets have been mainly between Sheffield and London and I just assumed the same applied elsewhere.

 

[najaB]

It does in terms of an Advance ticket - whether one train is cancelled or ten trains, the train that the ticket was originally valid on has still been cancelled.

Again: yes, for passengers who were booked to travel on that train it will disrupt their plans. However, that isn't a 'time of disruption' as it will have little (or no) impact on anyone else.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Again: yes, for passengers who were booked to travel on that train it will disrupt their plans. However, that isn't a 'time of disruption' as it will have little (or no) impact on anyone else.

It's a time at which disruption occurred.

FWIW, I do see what you mean, though. It is a poorly drafted term, because there is more than one interpretation. There should only ever be one possible interpretation of this kind of thing, so it can be clearly communicated to passengers and they can know the action to take.

The railway is very, very bad at this, and with increasingly stringent ticket restrictions (and prosecution-happiness) and a move towards Advances being the norm it will only get worse if it is not sorted out, ideally with an independent arbiter.

 

[najaB]

FWIW, I do see what you mean, though. It is a poorly drafted term, because there is more than one interpretation. There should only ever be one possible interpretation of this kind of thing, so it can be clearly communicated to passengers and they can know the action to take.

FWIW, the guidance that Starmill quoted is internal industry guidance, rather than something public-facing.

 

[MikeWh]

So, just to clarify, when does one train being cancelled become a time of disruption?

a) when the next train by the same operator is under 15 minutes later?
b) when the next train is up to an hour later?
c) when the next train is up to 2 hours later?
d) when the next train is over 2 hours later (eg HoW line)?
e) when the next train is the next day?

 

[najaB]

So, just to clarify, when does one train being cancelled become a time of disruption?

To my mind, never. One train being cancelled is covered by the Advance ticket T&C's if the TOC has a later train that will get you to your destination

If the train you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or is delayed and you still decide to travel, special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train (although a seat cannot be guaranteed.

or by the NRCoC if they do not

43. Help from Train Companies if you are stranded
If disruption caused by circumstances within the control of a Train Company or a Rail Service Company leaves you stranded before you have reached your destination printed on or stored on your ticket, and the Train Company whose trains you are entitled to use is unable to get you to that destination by other means, any Train Company which is in a position to help will, if it reasonably can, either arrange to get you to that destination, or provide overnight accommodation for you.

A time of disruption is when there is a declared/stated service alteration, which will normally be listed on the NRE website.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The ATOC Internal guidance being referred to in a number of posts is available on the ATOC website for all to see, here : http://www.atoc.org/download/clientfiles/files/ATOC%20CoP%20-%20Passenger%20information%20during%20disruption.pdf

If you read this document it does not say that mutual ticket acceptance is automatic for one cancellation. In fact it does not mention about what happens with one cancellation, primarily because that isn't considered to be disruption.

Ticket acceptance between TOCs and routes comes as part of the enhanced customer service offering once CSL2 is declared by a TOC. The threshold for declaring CSL2 varies from one TOC to another, based on a number of factors as outlined in the above document. "Each Railway Undertaking should define its Service Disruption Threshold/s above which
these PIDD arrangements will apply..." Once TOC A has declared CSL2 then mutual ticket acceptance is automatic on alternative TOCs or routes, as defined in each TOCs plan. "The declaration of CSL2 allows a wider understanding of the issues throughout the industry, notably amongst other Railway Undertakings who are able to provide assistance, and is accepted as the trigger required for additional assistance." At this time a pager / tyrell / email message is sent out to all affected staff at all affected TOCs who will then be aware of what is happening and accept tickets accordingly. I must get at least 1 message a day on average in this regard. So mutual ticket acceptance is not automatic until "disruption" is declared and CSL2 is in place, and at what stage this is declared varies according to each TOCs plan. The comments about all TOCs working together and treating all passengers to the same high standards journey clearly meant to apply when CSL2 type incidents occur and everyone pulls together.

If one train is cancelled or until such time as Disruption / CSL2 is declared, then unless TOC A asks for ticket acceptance from TOC B via the same or alternative route, then there is no automatic ticket acceptance in place. Now, it is extremely common for TOCs to request such arrangements on a one off basis, and some of these messages are received each day too. It is also not uncommon for staff at a station or on a certain train to endorse tickets to authorise travel - I see issue such endorsements regularly.

In respect of the Advance Tickets Ts & Cs on the NRE website, it says
"When and where the ticket can be used

Tickets are valid ONLY on the date and train service(s) shown on the ticket(s).
Where applicable, you must travel in the Class and reserved seat(s) shown on the ticket(s).
Tickets may only be used on the services of the Train Company (or geographic route where applicable) shown next to ‘Route’ on the ticket.
If the ‘Route’ also states ‘and Connections’, travel is allowed on appropriate connecting trains where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary."

So it highlights you must travel on a certain train, in a certain class and possibly a certain seat, and only on a certain train company or route.

Further down it says that if you are delayed you can take the next available train, or if your train is cancelled arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train.

It does not say whether these comments over-ride the conditions noted further up the same page (namely the route and TOC restrictions). It could be that "available" in this case means the next "available" train is a train run by the same TOC as noted on the ticket. Nor does it say what the "another train" is in cases of cancellation. It is my opinion and interpretation that unless at some point the relevant authorisation is given, then you must follow the route and TOC restrictions on your ticket. This authorisation may be a blanket relaxation when CSL2 is declared, or a one off relaxation agreed locally or individually. I am aware however that others disagree with that view.

NOW, I am not saying that in the OP's case the situation warranted an extra charge being levied, I feel I don't have enough information to judge that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why is that a surprise? Or something to be ashamed of? The point of the industry, the reason you are all there is to get passengers to where they want to be. People demand good service at low prices, it's how the market is supposed to work to serve them that, not just moan that they want it and charge them more because you can (which, forgive me, seems to be the approach you most often endorse). A fair deal can mean that no cake and eating need take place. But if there is, the customer gets to have their cake and eat it. You don't. Deal with it.

Good service at low prices is perfectly possible, and the market generally does work well to deliver that. However, as it stands at the moment, low prices come with some restrictions, often a TOC or route restriction. And while the industry does work well together to get people around the place and where they want to be, if you have a cheaper route or TOC specific ticket then you must accept they come with some restrictions, and the waiving of those restrictions is not automatic at all times under every circumstance. Different products are offered at different price levels to suit the needs of different travellers. If people wish to have greater flexibility, then there is normally a higher priced ticket which gives them that. The argument about whether that flexible ticket is too expensive is an entirely different one altogether, and I agree that many of them are, but that is the way it is.

Many people having used the airline comparison, I will use the bus industry comparison. A route near me has 2 or sometimes 3 different operators running along it. Different fares are available. Each bus company issues it's own operator specific single or day tickets, or there is the MetroDay which is more expensive but can be used on all operators. If I buy a Transdev Day Ticket and the Transdev bus does not turn up I cannot just get on the next First bus that comes along and expect them to accept my Transdev ticket. If I purchased the more expensive Metroday, then I could, without problem. The choice is mine as to which to buy in the first place.

 

[gray1404]

Is the OP able to post any additional info yet so we can comment on the specifics of this case?

 

[sheff1]

kwvr45, I am with you on most of the above, but must take issue with this;

If people wish to have greater flexibility, then there is normally a higher priced ticket which gives them that.

If I purchase an Advance ticket on, say, the 1551 from Manchester Victoria to Newcastle then I have no wish for flexibility and an happy to take that train, and that train alone, arriving at my destination at 1815.

If that train is cancelled, I still do not require flexibility I just want to get to my destination as close the the original arrival time as possible. I do not agree that I should be forced to pay more to achieve that.

 

[najaB]

If I purchase an Advance ticket on, say, the 1551 from Manchester Victoria to Newcastle then I have no wish for flexibility and an happy to take that train, and that train alone, arriving at my destination at 1815.

If that train is cancelled, I still do not require flexibility I just want to get to my destination as close the the original arrival time as possible. I do not agree that I should be forced to pay more to achieve that.

The lack of flexibility that limits you to the 1551, also applies if the 1551 is cancelled. If you had a flexible ticket you would be free to get onto the next train without penalty, with an Advance ticket you will be instructed to travel on the train that the TOC chooses to put you onto. That may be the next train (run by another TOC) or it may be the next train run by the TOC in question.

If you want to travel on a different train to the one the TOC arranges for you to travel on, then you need to pay.

 

[yorksrob]

There is indeed (sometimes): post from the other thread.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The only duty (legal, not moral) that TOC's have under the NRCoC is if the customer would otherwise be stranded.

As a matter of practice, they will more often than not allow travel as long as it is authorised beforehand.

It sounds as though the NCoC need to be reformed in favour of passengers, rather than to uphold faux free-market interests.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you want to travel on a different train to the one the TOC arranges for you to travel on, then you need to pay.

In that case, there would need to be a more wholesale regulation regime for walk-on fares.

Probably easier for everyone for the right to travel on the next passenger train by a reasonable route in the event of a cancellation, to be enshrined explicitly in all franchise and open access agreements.

 

[najaB]

It sounds as though the NCoC need to be reformed in favour of passengers, rather than to uphold faux free-market interests.

Personally I don't think it should go into the NRCoC, the appropriate place would be the T&C's of the specific ticket type as that gives more control to the TOCs to vary the conditions based on different ticket types - for example they may want to say that for First-class Advance tickets you can travel Standard class on the next service (if it's another TOC) services or First on their next train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally I don't think it should go into the NRCoC, the appropriate place would be the T&C's of the specific ticket type as that gives more control to the TOCs to vary the conditions based on different ticket types - for example they may want to say that for First-class Advance tickets you can travel Standard class on the next service (if it's another TOC) services or First on their next train.

Do you *like* complication? If it's a First Class ticket, it's a First Class ticket. Let's not get into the ridiculous situation of First Class that isn't First Class, such as the old Virgin blue zone thing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you want to travel on a different train to the one the TOC arranges for you to travel on, then you need to pay.

The TOC rarely bothers arranging or properly communicating anything, except for some situations at London termini.

Better that there is a single rule for all such tickets.

 

[najaB]

Do you *like* complication? If it's a First Class ticket, it's a First Class ticket. Let's not get into the ridiculous situation of First Class that isn't First Class, such as the old Virgin blue zone thing.

It's not about complexity. It's about giving customers the choice between getting where they want/need to be as quickly as possible, or travelling later and enjoying the First Class ambiance. And, more importantly, the freebies as this would make it more palatable to the second TOC - they wouldn't have to give complimentaries away for free.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The TOC rarely bothers arranging or properly communicating anything, except for some situations at London termini.

kwvr45's post contradicts that assessment. And, with respect, I'll take the word of someone who does this for a living than another keyboard warrior such as myself.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The TOC rarely bothers arranging or properly communicating anything, except for some situations at London termini.

Internally, to staff at least, communication on significant disruption and what alternative arrangements are in place is a lot better than it used to be. I get messages daily about one sort of ticket acceptance or another, or disruption somewhere else having a knock on effect on passengers, for example.

And actually, what is displayed on NRE when there is disruption, is often a lot better than what staff get, and it will detail what routes passengers can take, what arrangements are in place.

However, in the case of one-off cancellations, or minor low-level disruption, I agree, communication is not that good.

 

[yorksrob]

Personally I don't think it should go into the NRCoC, the appropriate place would be the T&C's of the specific ticket type as that gives more control to the TOCs to vary the conditions based on different ticket types - for example they may want to say that for First-class Advance tickets you can travel Standard class on the next service (if it's another TOC) services or First on their next train.

Then you just end up with the same problem as now. It's quite enough for passengers to have to work out which train they can or can't get on under normal circumstances, without them having to second guess what this or that TOC's policy at a time of disruption happens to be.

This should be imposed across the board, not left willy-nilly to companies.

 

[sheff1]

they wouldn't have to give complimentaries away for free.

Complimentaries are given away for free. That is what the word means.

This should be imposed across the board, not left willy-nilly to companies.

Indeed, one rule, applicable to all and which is enshrined in the NRCoC.

 

[najaB]

Then you just end up with the same problem as now. It's quite enough for passengers to have to work out which train they can or can't get on under normal circumstances, without them having to second guess what this or that TOC's policy at a time of disruption happens to be.

The conditions would apply to classes of tickets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Complimentaries are given away for free. That is what the word means.

They aren't free, they are complimentary. There is a difference. They are included in the cost of the ticket - which TOC B wouldn't be getting in the case that they are carrying passengers with TOC A only tickets.

 

[35B]

And the marginal cost for the few inter city TOCs that do this would be? And the value of the brand advertising? I

People and operators need to start learning the difference between cost and opportunity cost.

 

[yorksrob]

The conditions would apply to classes of tickets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
They aren't free, they are complimentary. There is a difference. They are included in the cost of the ticket - which TOC B wouldn't be getting in the case that they are carrying passengers with TOC A only tickets.

Far simpler to have one condition for all tickets. If your booked train is cancelled, you have the right to travel on the next service via any reasonable route. What possible benefit would there be for anyone to have a more complicated system?

 

[najaB]

Far simpler to have one condition for all tickets. If your booked train is cancelled, you have the right to travel on the next service via any reasonable route. What possible benefit would there be for anyone to have a more complicated system?

I agree it would be simpler, however I can see objections from the TOCs about the change based on their protective nature of their first class product (and the considerable difference in quality of the offer between TOCs). Allowing the passenger to travel on the next appropriate train but without guaranteeing class of accommodation eliminates that objection.

 

[yorksrob]

I agree it would be simpler, however I can see objections from the TOCs about the change based on their protective nature of their first class product (and the considerable difference in quality of the offer between TOCs). Allowing the passenger to travel on the next appropriate train but without guaranteeing class of accommodation eliminates that objection.

Well perhaps. First class is a bit of a niche concern to the majority of passengers.

 

[anme]

Many people having used the airline comparison, I will use the bus industry comparison. A route near me has 2 or sometimes 3 different operators running along it. Different fares are available. Each bus company issues it's own operator specific single or day tickets, or there is the MetroDay which is more expensive but can be used on all operators. If I buy a Transdev Day Ticket and the Transdev bus does not turn up I cannot just get on the next First bus that comes along and expect them to accept my Transdev ticket. If I purchased the more expensive Metroday, then I could, without problem. The choice is mine as to which to buy in the first place.

I'm not sure what point this is supposed to prove, other than that the British bus system is the most moronic in Europe.