Route: Kensington Olympia?

[Pumbaa]

dan_atki, I think it's come up as route via Kens Olympia because you can travel to Kens olympia via London. If you want to go to any station on that route from Willesden to Clapham, you have the option of travelling via London or Olympia.

 

[dan_atki]

Hmmmm I appreciate that there is no station in between Willesden Junction and Kensington Olympia but having that routeing on the ticket, I think, is a bit silly - of course, whichever way you go you will eventually get to Olympia as that's where you're trying to get to. Even though the ticket is not valid via London I could attempt to travel via zone 1 and argue about the matter.

Available routeings for this ticket are:
Kensington Olympia, Zone U1 London, Not London, and +Any Permitted.

Intriguing question number two: what is the difference between the route Kensington Olympia and the route Not London (apart from the price)?

Another one is Willesden Junction to Kensington Olympia: Not London, Kensington Olympia, Richmond, Zone U1 London, and +Any Permitted are your choices here.

Not London is cheaper than the Kenny O, which is cheaper than Richmond - again something else that does not make sense! Not London would to me assume either direct or via Richmond. Even then the via Richmond takes the biscuit a bit - because even if that is still Not London in its own right, then I could go via Clapham Junction (valid by the routeing guide). Bit silly that when Kensington Olympia is in between Willesden and Clapham...

I'd assume 'Kensington Olympia' as a routeing is meant to be taken as 'Direct' (why, then, don't they use that as the routeing? Try buying a London Bridge to London Waterloo single and see the routeing on that...). Still begs the question what is the mysterious Not London - and, in the Willesden case (but funnily enough not the Harrow case) why is it cheaper than the route Kensington Olympia?

 

[paul1609]

Whilst on the topic of these mysterious routeings on tickets thought I'd share this one with you - please enlighten me!

From: HARROW & WLDSTNE
To: KENSNGTN OLYMPIA
Route: KENSNGTN OLYMPIA

hmmm well it would be beneficial if Kenny O was on the route seeing as that's where I'm going.....
.

Kensington Olympia is one of those stations that has weird routings because it never traditionally had a service north to the wcml.
An any permitted ticket is also valid via Clapham Junction or even Balham and then Underground to Euston.
Route Kensington Olympia means its available either via Willesden junction or on direct southern trains.

If you are traveling from South of London to a WCML station or vice versa it is worth checking Kenny O fares out as they are often the same as London Terminals and give you "free" travel from Clapham Junction. They have a "+" and work the underground barriers.

 

[dan_atki]

Kensington Olympia is one of those stations that has weird routings because it never traditionally had a service north to the wcml.
An any permitted ticket is also valid via Clapham Junction or even Balham and then Underground to Euston.
Route Kensington Olympia means its available either via Willesden junction or on direct southern trains.

Gee this gets more interesting (especially with the mention of Balham).

Again whilst I understand the point about no direct link between Olympia and the WCML, having set fares to Kensington Olympia route Kensington Olympia is meaningless as yorkie has already said. The routeing, as far as I'm concerned, should be 'Direct' which is evidently what route Olympia means.

A post of mine above states all the ticket routeings for Harrow to Olympia and Willesden to Olympia. Put simply, they don't make sense. On a Willesden Junction to Kensington Olympia ticket how is the routeing 'Kensington Olympia' (or rather, its implication of 'Direct') any different to 'Not London'?
Why was it more expensive to go route 'Kensington Olympia' than 'Not London'? Forgetting the Richmond service for the moment (I feel that between these two tickets it's irrelevant because that really is going out of your way) please tell me how these two are different, ensuring the route you specify is valid as per routeing guide instructions. Also, which route is appearing to be more direct than 'Direct'? :? Confused? I am.

 

[jv3531]

I can see your point dan, there is no logical explanation for this - one would asume that it may have been a routing error when input into the system. Often happens when they put new stations in and don't verify what they enter. You may find that they may have put the destination into the wrong field when the database was set up and will find that because "via Kes Olympia" is a valid route, the software would not have thrown up a validation error. I would have said that the more direct route is the Willesden J Southern option as mentioned as it is I believe only one change and the onto the direct southern service. Welcome to the joys of the Routing guide! Not sure if you've seen the hard copy version,its interesting - if you can understand it, "Any permitted" opens up a whole new meaing if you can, believe me!

 

[dan_atki]

You may find that they may have put the destination into the wrong field when the database was set up and will find that because "via Kes Olympia" is a valid route, the software would not have thrown up a validation error.

Yep, another perfectly plausible explanation along with the two mentioned above too (for services beyond Olympia, and because of the link to the WCML). Makes you wonder how these fares get through the system - someone in a ticket office somewhere must have noticed this before now and brought it up with their supervisor/duty manager...

In fact, I wonder if these routeings still exist now.

I would have said that the more direct route is the Willesden J Southern option as mentioned as it is I believe only one change and the onto the direct southern service.

That's the thing - both Harrow and Willesden offer direct services to Olympia (through Southern in the former and London Overground in the latter). Checking the online RG, Willesden is a routeing point and Kensington Olympia has an associated RP of Willesden - so shortest, direct route must be taken (except in the 'Richmond', '+Any Permitted', and 'Zone U1 London' tickets' cases).

Without checking I assume RPs for Harrow would be Watford and Willesden. Shock - another common routeing point of Willesden. Again the shortest, most direct route must be taken.

OK maybe we're getting somewhere with the existance of this erranous 'route Kensington Olympia' but why then is there also a 'Not London' fare for both journeys? And why does it have a different price - when it is valid on the same services from what I can make out?

Was there any arrangement between Silverlink and ATOC regarding fares for the West London Line when the zonal price structure was introduced?

Attached are some images, showing the silly routeings and their even sillier prices. What is worth noting is that the fares I'm having trouble comprehending are set by two bodies.

 

[jv3531]

Olympia route - direct rail route.
Zone Uxx London - Standard underground zone 1/2 fare single.
Not london - NR + tube where common sections allow but not central london (ie. euston - tube etc).
Any Permitted - Any combination of above

Any underground zone will be charged the appropriate zone fare, on top of the rail fare where these are valid for use on the underground. This is why fares do vary if they go via london/not london as you include the zone one fare which is considerably dearer ontop of the other zones as well. Any permitted would need to allow for any combination of forms of travel between the two stations.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
By the way, think the Richmond route is th SL version of the arrangement, would make sense....

 

[dan_atki]

Whilst on the topic of these mysterious routeings on tickets thought I'd share this one with you - please enlighten me!

From: HARROW & WLDSTNE
To: KENSNGTN OLYMPIA
Route: KENSNGTN OLYMPIA

hmmm well it would be beneficial if Kenny O was on the route seeing as that's where I'm going.....

 

[yorkie]

Whilst on the topic of these mysterious routeings on tickets thought I'd share this one with you - please enlighten me!

From: HARROW & WLDSTNE
To: KENSNGTN OLYMPIA
Route: KENSNGTN OLYMPIA

hmmm well it would be beneficial if Kenny O was on the route seeing as that's where I'm going.....

it's meaningless! I suspect that the route Kensington Olympia is intended for journeys beyond there but someone has accidentally included Kenny O itself in the list. Ooops!

 

[dan_atki]

it's meaningless! I suspect that the route Kensington Olympia is intended for journeys beyond there but someone has accidentally included Kenny O itself in the list. Ooops!

Exactly! Still that doesn't explain the other weird ticket routeings thrown up by Avantix and the differences in price between them...

 

[jv3531]

Hi Dan,

You may find that this ticket may be routed via Watford - Kens, because it would normally state that its either route "London" or as was mentioned "+" would be shown on the tickets, if its not, probably would be watford - clapham (southern) services.

 

[dan_atki]

Olympia route - direct rail route.
Zone Uxx London - Standard underground zone 1/2 fare single.
Not london - NR + tube where common sections allow but not central london (ie. euston - tube etc).
Any Permitted - Any combination of above

Glad we agree that the Olympia routeing means the same! The problem I have is with the 'Not London' now - the definition here is rather generic I think. Can you tell me a route valid on the 'Not London' ticket that is not valid on the 'Kensington Olympia'?

The other point I'm making is with regard to Willesden to Olympia. If route 'Olympia' does indeed mean 'Direct' why is it not the cheapest fare? :?

By the way, think the Richmond route is th SL version of the arrangement, would make sense....

I do seem to remember vaguely something about Silverlink and the North London Line (which the Richmond route is) with regards to zonal fares. Anyone shed light on that or have I been dreaming? If there was something did it also apply to the West London Line?

It would appear at a quick check that most zonal fares were set by DBA. I assume this is some authority in London. However, one operator code does still exist - STS. Silverlink were allowed to have their own fares despite the zonal arrangement and it would appear that both Silverlink AND zonal fares were set... with conflicting prices.

 

[jv3531]

Olympia route would set route by overground via willesden, not tube. Not london would include the journey by tube to give greater fleibility but not via Central London. Zone U1-6 would allow transfer via london, ie into euston, then tube. As far as direct and cheapest, this does not always mean the case. For example, the willesen - clapham service is not as frequent and is usually a 3 car train compared to the tube which is frequent and can carry more passengers. Therefor logically speaking, to avoid overcrouding on the overgound service, you set the cheaper fare for using the tube. That way, those people who want the direct service are able to use the servie for what it is and not have the hassle of additional travelers using the service for connecting purposes.

As for fare setting, thats something completly different MOst fares are usually set by one of either the main operator or from PTE/local funding.

However, this can change where more than one operator exists as the revenue tends to go to the company where the most revenue would come from. There is also the balance of fares to take into consideration, which will give a totally unexpected outcome.

 

[yorkie]

I think we need to go back to basics.

http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/Routeing_Guide/instructions.htm

". Where the fare specifies a particular route, you may choose only those routes listed in the Guide which pass through the station shown in the route description."

OK, so you must travel via Kensington Olympia. Right, well any valid route from Kenny O to Kenny O will go through Kenny O by definition, so it doesn't restrict you at all.

So, what are the permitted routes? Harrow and Kenny O both share a routeing point, namely Willesden Jn. Unfortunately that means the only permitted routes are the shortest route (includes any route no longer than 3 miles longer than the shortest route), and direct trains (regardless of route taken).

According to thetrainline the following fares are available:

Ticket Type          Route/Company     Price          
STANDARD DAY RETURN  KENSNGTN OLYMPIA  6.00 GBP          
CHEAP DAY RETURN     ANY PERMITTED     7.00 GBP        
STANDARD DAY RETURN  ZONE U1 LONDN     8.00 GBP         
STANDARD DAY RETURN  ANY PERMITTED     11.20 GBP

Zone U1 London specifically specifies valid via London so is valid that way, even though London would not otherwise be a permitted route. I can't find any journeys on thetrainline that use this ticket though.

The Any Permitted fares have a "+" (thetrainline doesn't make this immediately obvious), the "+" indicates cross-London transfer, which I can only assume over-rules the Routeing Guide in this case. The CDR is daft as it is the same price as an Off Peak travelcard.

So, really, it makes a mockery of the Routeing Guide as these fares effectively ignore it.

 

[dan_atki]

Not london would include the journey by tube to give greater fleibility but not via Central London.

Please give me an example of a route I could have taken on a 'Not London' ticket that is not a direct service but is still valid by the routeing guide. Generally speaking 'Not London' means 'avoiding zone 1'.

We have:
Route Olympia: Direct service
Route Zone U1: (Bakerloo/NR to Queen's Park then) Bakerloo and District Lines

Route +Any Permitted: Really isn't clear as to whether it is limited to just those routes or whether Euston is also allowed. High price suggests so but RG says otherwise about such matters.

Route Not London: OK so we can't go via zone 1. We can't double back. What route (apart from direct or changing at Willesden) does this represent?

According to thetrainline the following fares are available:

Ticket Type          Route/Company     Price          
STANDARD DAY RETURN  KENSNGTN OLYMPIA  6.00 GBP          
CHEAP DAY RETURN     ANY PERMITTED     7.00 GBP        
STANDARD DAY RETURN  ZONE U1 LONDN     8.00 GBP         
STANDARD DAY RETURN  ANY PERMITTED     11.20 GBP

Hmmm no 'Not London' routeing! Or, probably not showing because it's pointless.

I will proceed to look at a rather old fare manual to see if this problem was a case of the zonal fares or if it always existed.

 

[paul1609]

I think its largely academedic now anyway as these are both Oyster stations I cant see anything other than the £3 cash single or a travelcard being issued.

 

[dan_atki]

I will proceed to look at a rather old fare manual to see if this problem was a case of the zonal fares or if it always existed.

After consulting NFM85 the complete opposite to what I expected turns out to be the case.

Routeings given for Willesden Junction to Kensington Olympia were 'Not London' or 'Zone U1 London'. Although I didn't check Harrow, I'd assume the same applies there.

Looks like the 'Kensington Olympia', 'Richmond', and '+Any Permitted' all came along with the zonal structure and they just didn't remove the old fares...

 

[jv3531]

According to thetrainline the following fares are available:

Ticket Type          Route/Company     Price          
STANDARD DAY RETURN  KENSNGTN OLYMPIA  6.00 GBP          
CHEAP DAY RETURN     ANY PERMITTED     7.00 GBP        
STANDARD DAY RETURN  ZONE U1 LONDN     8.00 GBP         
STANDARD DAY RETURN  ANY PERMITTED     11.20 GBP

Would asume that the fares quoted above are:

STD,via Kes Oly is the willes Jn-Rail Only fare.
CDR Any permitted - would asume this to be valid tube/rail combine.
STD Zone one - ticket valid via central london, change allowed at euston or as appropriate
STD Any, peak return as CDR but valid any time.

SDR £8.00 is equiv of 2 x london Z1 full cash journeys so would be valid as described

 

[yorkie]

SDR £8.00 is equiv of 2 x london Z1 full cash journeys so would be valid as described

But neither Harrow or Kenny O are in Zone 1.

 

[jv3531]

May be not but the route says zone one, therefore you pay the fare which includes zone one travel on the underground - ie, the £4 single cash fare. Returns are calculated at twice the single fare whendealingwith tube fares as technically these are single fares only but allow customers to purchase these return tickets for convienience. There is no discount for return on tube fares.

 

[Andrew Tiffin]

Kensington (Olympia) is in Zone 2 and Harrow & Wealdstone is in Zone 5.

 

[glynn80]

According to thetrainline the following fares are available:

Ticket Type          Route/Company     Price          
STANDARD DAY RETURN  KENSNGTN OLYMPIA  6.00 GBP          
CHEAP DAY RETURN     ANY PERMITTED     7.00 GBP        
STANDARD DAY RETURN  ZONE U1 LONDN     8.00 GBP         
STANDARD DAY RETURN  ANY PERMITTED     11.20 GBP

The fares I have in "The Manual" for H&W- Kenny O are:

Rte KENSNGTN OLYMPIA 600
LOR- Fare set by London Overground
(S/R)- Single/Return
FDS S 4.50
FDR R 9.00
SDS S 3.00
SDR R 6.00
7DS R 18.30
7DF R 27.50

Rte Any Permitted
ATO- Not sure what ATO actually stands for???
(S/R)- Single/Return
FDS S 8.70
FDR R 17.40
SDS S 5.80
SDR R 11.20
CDR R 7.00

rte ZONE U1 LONDN 930
LOR- Fare set by London Overground
(S/R)- Single/Return
SDS S 4.00
SDR R 8.00