Liverpool to Norwich - Direct Services

[dquebec]

Hi, I am new forum member, but travel a lot (3-4 times each week) with EMT, from Sheffield to Cambridge (changing at Ely).

With the franchise announcement for Northern/TPE, and the EMT franchise being extended, does anybody know if there is likely to be a change to the Norwich to Liverpool service?

I have noticed it is using old Class 158 trains, sometimes also 153/156, which are pretty poor. The seating is really jammed in there, not much space at all, especially for luggage. No first class, no power sockets, no information displays/announcements, but we now get catering as far as Peterborough, (used to be Nottingham), so that is a little bit better.

Some people have told me that the route will be terminated at Peterborough, as part of TPE, others have said it will go direct to Cambridge instead of Norwich.

During the day time (off peak), there's not many people on the train after Nottingham (towards Ely), everyone seems to get off at Peterborough anyway, so maybe it's better to terminate there?

Desperately needs newer, better trains on this route though!

Thank you

BTW my idea would be for the train to continue past Nottingham as a 4 carriage train, and split at Ely, with 2 coaches for Norwich and 2 for Cambridge/Stansted Airport. The latter destinations is where most people want to go beyond Peterborough!

 

[LowLevel]

The trains are due an upgrade next year which will deliver at least some of what you mention (can't see first class though). They're generally pretty busy Norwich to Peterborough. Talk of altering the service seems to have gone quiet with Anglia bidders told to assume it remains as is at the Eastern end until at least 2025.

 

[Bungle965]

Good i am glad that it will remain as a through service.
Sam

 

[class26]

The trains are due an upgrade next year which will deliver at least some of what you mention (can't see first class though). They're generally pretty busy Norwich to Peterborough. Talk of altering the service seems to have gone quiet with Anglia bidders told to assume it remains as is at the Eastern end until at least 2025.

What`s the nature of the upgrade?

 

[dquebec]

The way I experience the line (off peak) is that after Nottingham, until Ely, the 2-car train is only loaded to around 40-60% of capacity. Never seen anyone have to stand, except between Nottingham and Grantham sometimes in the evening.

I just wish EMT would upgrade this route, attract more passengers, tinker with the destination/calling points and secure the future of this long distance service. At the moment, they don't seem to want to do anything with it. EMT is awful at advertising.

 

[LowLevel]

What`s the nature of the upgrade?

The details haven't been published in full but as I understand it at least some plug sockets, a customer information system and new toilets will feature.

 

[dquebec]

The details haven't been published in full but as I understand it at least some plug sockets, a customer information system and new toilets will feature.

99% of their "investment" goes into their London routes. They run the Liverpool-Norwich route operationally quite well, but customer service wise, it's more like a Megabus/coach operation, long journey time, packed in seating, minimum service provision possible. Sell 'em cheap, stack 'em high mentality. No consideration given to comfort or to be creative with connections/new destinations. First Class, Wifi, power sockets, extended catering, information screens and more room for tables/luggage is pretty standard these days, especially for a near 6 hour intercity journey. Probably take another 1-2 years before any improvement is even seen, by then it will all be outdated!

 

[LowLevel]

The problem you have is it was always locallish journeys joined together with a coincidental long distance benefit too.

I happen to think the 158s as regional express units go are pretty good and you have to remember the refurb is fairly old now and they're due further attention. The worst parts in my opinion are the toilets and I'll be very glad to see the back of the current setup which is pretty much the worst of all worlds.

Putting some luggage space back in would be good too.

The route will see some investment I think - it's actually mostly set up towards catering for the Sheffield - Manchester commuting/leisure market at the moment.

It's much better than for example Northern on their longer distance routes and has more capacity than TPE albeit with older trains, a 3 car 185 really isn't up to much.

 

[oliMw]

I generally find that the services from Norwich, to Peterborough, at least, are generally full with little spare seating. It would not be a popular decision in Norfolk to loose an hourly return service on the Breckland Line or see Norwich loose their direct train to Nottingham, Manchester etc.

 

[43074]

The service is certainly better now than it was at the start of the East Midlands Trains franchise, the problems started when the centre cars were removed from the few EMT 158s which had them. Then we had the refurbishment of the 158s, which improved the interiors of the units but with a layout designed to look good on a civil servant's spreadsheet rather than to be reasonably comfortable or functional from a customer perspective. Things only improved when EMT were able to start strengthening trains between Nottingham and Liverpool after they acquired 4 156s to cascade 158s to the service. I'd place the blame at the DfT's door for any lack of development.

There is no long term benefit to EMT experimenting with new destinations under the franchise model, that is down to the DfT who have mooted (amongst other things) transferring Nottingham to Liverpool to the TransPennine franchise and leaving Norwich to Nottingham with the East Midlands franchise (2006) or more recently diverting the service to Cambridge and replacing it between Peterborough and Norwich with a service run by the East Anglia franchise. Seeing as we've just had the Northern/TPE franchises announced, and the bids for the next East Anglia franchise are being prepared (the main franchises affected by any remapping of Norwich to Liverpool) any change is unlikely until the mid 2020s.

 

[dk1]

Loadings Norwich-Peterborough have always been pretty good. Now something I have said for many years is that any advertising of the route in East Anglia has been non-existent. Can only assume it's down to capacity restraints. Even when 'advance' fares where introduced a few years back there was nothing promoted this end. I speak to people who are amazed when I say a direct service operates to the North West every hour. Only improvement has been in reliability which far exceeds the dark days of CT. The return of catering East of Nottingham to Pbo/Ely is most welcome.

 

[tom1649]

I'd rather have a 156 than a 158. At least the 156s don't feel claustrophobic. In fact I found the 158s ok until they put the new seating in.

 

[Bungle965]

Ahhh CT wow they really were wonderful at running that route.

I belive that the reason that they have not promoted it is because as you said, they do not won`t more people using that route as it is already crowded enough.
Sam
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'd rather have a 156 than a 158. At least the 156s don't feel claustrophobic. In fact I found the 158s ok until they put the new seating in.

Thats interesting i have never really found the 158`s seating to be that bad.
Sam

 

[dk1]

Thats interesting i have never really found the 158`s seating to be that bad.
Sam

Me neither Most see a 156 standing in & lose the will...

 

[Bungle965]

Me neither Most see a 156 standing in & lose the will...

Saw one come into the platform at Manchester P with a 158 on the end, the 156 stopped at where i was standing. A big NOPE was my first thought and made my way down to the 158.
Sam

 

[jopsuk]

It's the sort of service that provides an A-F service by being an A-C, B-D, C-E, D-F etc service- lots of overlapping local services. By making it a through service it means it's easier to run it frequently and to a clockface timetable.

 

[6Gman]

I have noticed it is using old Class 158 trains, sometimes also 153/156, which are pretty poor. The seating is really jammed in there, not much space at all, especially for luggage. No first class, no power sockets, no information displays/announcements, but we now get catering as far as Peterborough, (used to be Nottingham), so that is a little bit better.

Desperately needs newer, better trains on this route though!

Would you rather have a seat but no luggage rack, or a luggage rack ... and stand?

Would you rather have a cramped seat, or stand envying people sitting in their comfy seats?

Every train is a compromise. You balance seat capacity against comfort, seating capacity against luggage capacity.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have noticed it is using old Class 158 trains, sometimes also 153/156, which are pretty poor.

Would you rather sit on a 156 or stand on a 158?

[i.e. if there's no second 158 available]

 

[dquebec]

Would you rather have a seat but no luggage rack, or a luggage rack ... and stand?

Would you rather have a cramped seat, or stand envying people sitting in their comfy seats?

Every train is a compromise. You balance seat capacity against comfort, seating capacity against luggage capacity.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Would you rather sit on a 156 or stand on a 158?

[i.e. if there's no second 158 available]

The trains use are never busy enough for standing loads, so take some seats out! The 156 is far better than the 158. Seats are fine and there is lots of luggage space available on a nice, airy carriage!

The seating is far too dense, and if they are refurbished, I imagine some seats will go.

 

[swt_passenger]

The trains use are never busy enough for standing loads, so take some seats out! The 156 is far better than the 158. Seats are fine and there is lots of luggage space available on a nice, airy carriage!

The seating is far too dense, and if they are refurbished, I imagine some seats will go.

The extra seats compared to an as built 158 were only put in comparatively recently, done by EMT specifically for this service. 2009 or so if anyone can confirm?
There's probably zero possibility of them taking any out.

 

[Bungle965]

The trains use are never busy enough for standing loads, so take some seats out! The 156 is far better than the 158. Seats are fine and there is lots of luggage space available on a nice, airy carriage!

The seating is far too dense, and if they are refurbished, I imagine some seats will go.

Wait did you say that they are never busy enough for standing.
How wrong.
This service suffers from overcrowding allot. How many times have you used the service and has it been for different periods of the day.

Because i have once had to endure a journey from Peterborough to Manchester stood up almost all of the way into Manchester. Another time i have had to sit in the guards second man seat, because there was literally no were else to go.

This service needs more carriages so that you can actually get a seat.
Sam

 

[chubs]

I use this service occasional and it is pretty much always standing room only for part of the journey, sometimes completely jammed in. It is also often very well loaded between Norwich to Peterborough, anyone who claims otherwise must have their eyes closed.

I see a lot of people travelling direct from Norwich to Manchester or Nottingham too so any split to the route really wouldn't be great, its easy enough to get to Cambridge with a simple change at Ely.

The 158's are alight in my opinion, the interior is a bit cramped but it's light and airy and a vast improvement on the old one. They're also a lot better than the horrible 156's which are wholly inappropriate of that route.

The 170's seemed more appropriate in the CT days, but having been on one of the XC ones recently id take the 158 any day.

I think a lot of people commenting here who think they know what's best for this route and the passenger flows have never actually been on it.

 

[Haydn1971]

The trains use are never busy enough for standing loads, so take some seats out!

Obviously never catch the morning and evening services out of Manchester ! Standing is a regular feature.

The 156 is far better than the 158. Seats are fine and there is lots of luggage space available on a nice, airy carriage!

Personally, I find the EMT refurbishment to be a much more pleasant environment to sit in, plus the 90mph speed capability helps keep my trip home timely.

The seating is far too dense, and if they are refurbished, I imagine some seats will go.

More seats is good, EMT have struck a decent balance with the 158's in that there's 16-30 table seats and 8 extra legroom seats in each carriage.

 

[northwichcat]

Would you rather have a seat but no luggage rack, or a luggage rack ... and stand?

A long distance service should have enough seats for everyone doing more than a short hop plus space for luggage, it shouldn't be an either/or.

 

[tom1649]

Thats interesting i have never really found the 158`s seating to be that bad.
Sam

That's probably because most people like high backed seating, whereas I find it blocks the view.

 

[grumblingalong]

Given MML electrification, could Meridians make an appearance on the route? Or would loading gauges be too restrictive? My knowledge of the meridians and the route outside Anglia aren't great....

Would provide the catering and extra capacity?

 

[howittpie]

Was about to ask the same question. I am sure that Meridians have been used on Grand National day if I am wrong with that I am sure somone will correct me.

 

[northwichcat]

Was about to ask the same question. I am sure that Meridians have been used on Grand National day if I am wrong with that I am sure somone will correct me.

On Grand National Day in the past Liverpool-Norwich services have been split at Nottingham, with 7 car Meridians running Liverpool-Nottingham with SDO being used at some stations like Liverpool South Parkway. However, in more recent years (since EMT got 4 x 156s from Northern) the greater availability of Sprinters has meant the Meridian working hasn't happened.

 

[anti-pacer]

Just out of interest, what stock operated this route before the 158's back in the BR RR days?

 

[sprinterguy]

Just out of interest, what stock operated this route before the 158's back in the BR RR days?

Class 156s, although 158s worked the route from new in the early nineties.

 

[lordbusiness]

Don't remember a Nrw/Liv service in days of yore, only a Nrw/BNS which was CL 31 plus Mk1's. Or if you were really unlucky a CL 101/105.