Is the end is nigh for class 442*

[RobShipway]

This is an interesting point. The mantra of 'new trains reliable, old trains unreliable' begins to fall down when those new trains reach a certain age and the plethora of complex electronics and computer gizmos begin to creak. A 442 might be at best old, and at worse (traction motors) ancient, but I'd wager the faults they do have are considerably easier to identify than an ageing 'modern' unit with ill-tempered TMS software generating some vague 'fault' that may or may not exist.

It's also worth pointing out, once again, the widely acknowledged point that the 442s seemed to suddenly become drastically less reliable the moment somebody stuck Gatwick Express on the side of them...

So we need to take off the go faster stripes?

I think the class 442's should be converted to be able to be used with class 68, 70 and 90 locomotives. Although, I believe that they can work with Class 73's, but not sure if that would include the super 73/9's?

I can see the class 442 units being used if only short term possible along the GWML, even though the class 800's are being ordered, but being run loco hauled on say the fast local services to the likes of Oxford from Paddington so that the class 166's can move west, while electrification is waiting to be completed. Then you would just have the local services to Reading if the electrification has got that far, being run by class 387/365 units.

You could also have the 442's doing the services loco hauled to Hereford in place of the class 166's on the route.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

So we need to take off the go faster stripes?

I think the class 442's should be converted to be able to be used with class 68, 70 and 90 locomotives. Although, I believe that they can work with Class 73's, but not sure if that would include the super 73/9's?

I can see the class 442 units being used if only short term possible along the GWML, even though the class 800's are being ordered, but being run loco hauled on say the fast local services to the likes of Oxford from Paddington so that the class 166's can move west, while electrification is waiting to be completed. Then you would just have the local services to Reading if the electrification has got that far, being run by class 387/365 units.

You could also have the 442's doing the services loco hauled to Hereford in place of the class 166's on the route.

You've started early on Black Friday, but whatever you're having, I'll have some of it.

LHCS on the GWML with Class 442s - not the faintest chance, if anybody wants to do anything with those damned units, it's several months before they start coming off lease, the ROSCO will have months of discussions and engineering inspections before deciding on a plan of action, the actual works will take many more months, maybe a couple of years all in, then there's testing and figuring out pathing options, and by the time all of that is done, we'll have a heck of a lot of wires up and energised, as we're looking at late 2018 or early 2019.

Faffing about with rotten old rolling stock is not like tarting up an old Ford Cortina you've bought off a bloke down the pub. It's slow, ponderous, expensive, complicated with enough paperwork to keep a small papermill in business.

 

[The Ham]

How about keeping a lot of people happy, run them (with a bi-modal loco) on XC between Poole and Manchester.

Frees up Voyagers for XC to use elsewhere, let's them run on part of their old stomping grounds and is Loco hauled. XC would have to run them as 8 coaches just to cope with the enthusiasts who would be wanting to ride on them!

 

[RobShipway]

You've started early on Black Friday, but whatever you're having, I'll have some of it.

LHCS on the GWML with Class 442s - not the faintest chance, if anybody wants to do anything with those damned units, it's several months before they start coming off lease, the ROSCO will have months of discussions and engineering inspections before deciding on a plan of action, the actual works will take many more months, maybe a couple of years all in, then there's testing and figuring out pathing options, and by the time all of that is done, we'll have a heck of a lot of wires up and energised, as we're looking at late 2018 or early 2019.

Faffing about with rotten old rolling stock is not like tarting up an old Ford Cortina you've bought off a bloke down the pub. It's slow, ponderous, expensive, complicated with enough paperwork to keep a small papermill in business.

Okay...., it was just a few ideas

 

[Bevan Price]

I think the most likely fate of Class 442 is a one way trip to the razor blade factory. An alternative fate might be for a charter operator to buy & convert some to replace older Mark 1 / Mark 2 coaches.

If they were 25kV AC units, they might have found a home overseas, but I don't foresee much future there for 3rd rail emus.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If they were 25kV AC units, they might have found a home overseas, but I don't foresee much future there for 3rd rail emus.

Is the UK the only country that uses 3rd rail for trains that aren't metro or subway routes for a city?

 

[Bevan Price]

Is the UK the only country that uses 3rd rail for trains that aren't metro or subway routes for a city?

Not sure about the whole world, but I can't think of any European system using 3rd rail for long distance express services.

 

[southern442]

Is the UK the only country that uses 3rd rail for trains that aren't metro or subway routes for a city?

The Culoz–Modane railway in France was third rail until 1976. It runs overhead now, but at the same voltage of 1500V DC. Also I believe that Grand Central Terminal in New York is also 3rd rail in some areas. The Breitspurbahn, proposed by Hitler during the Third Reich, would also be third rail if built

 

[sarahj]

This is an interesting point. The mantra of 'new trains reliable, old trains unreliable' begins to fall down when those new trains reach a certain age and the plethora of complex electronics and computer gizmos begin to creak. A 442 might be at best old, and at worse (traction motors) ancient, but I'd wager the faults they do have are considerably easier to identify than an ageing 'modern' unit with ill-tempered TMS software generating some vague 'fault' that may or may not exist.

It's also worth pointing out, once again, the widely acknowledged point that the 442s seemed to suddenly become drastically less reliable the moment somebody stuck Gatwick Express on the side of them...

It does quite quite bizarre. When the 377 I was working failed on Saturday at the Heath after a divide*, we had to do what is called an 'aux off and on'. This is the 377 equivalent of turning your computer off, then on again. I explained to the punters what we were going to do and that the lights would go off (or low) while this took place. Re-set done and we set off, 12 mins late. Recently, I've had doors fail, the PA system is all over the shop, either not working, major buzzing, blasting in one coach, too low in another, being a Dalek in another, handsets out, internal doors going, Ac units grinding away, compressors and other bits shaking the train apart (and thus panels coming away) some small faults, but just getting more and more.

*unit after split decided it was lost and not so sure where it was, what it was, or what it was doing. So could not open the doors, or do anything. Issue is mainly software. Its rather old, but if you upgrade, most of the systems will go, nahhhh!!!!.

 

[Antman]

I had a ride on one this evening from London Bridge to East Croydon, lovely trains although the door arrangement obviously isn't ideal for urban work but hopefully they can be put to further use somewhere.

 

[bramling]

It does quite quite bizarre. When the 377 I was working failed on Saturday at the Heath after a divide*, we had to do what is called an 'aux off and on'. This is the 377 equivalent of turning your computer off, then on again. I explained to the punters what we were going to do and that the lights would go off (or low) while this took place. Re-set done and we set off, 12 mins late. Recently, I've had doors fail, the PA system is all over the shop, either not working, major buzzing, blasting in one coach, too low in another, being a Dalek in another, handsets out, internal doors going, Ac units grinding away, compressors and other bits shaking the train apart (and thus panels coming away) some small faults, but just getting more and more.

*unit after split decided it was lost and not so sure where it was, what it was, or what it was doing. So could not open the doors, or do anything. Issue is mainly software. Its rather old, but if you upgrade, most of the systems will go, nahhhh!!!!.

It's a shame this is occurring, as the Electrostars should now be at the stage in their life where they are at optimal reliability.

I have noticed the last few journeys I have made (on both Southeastern and Southern) in almost every case there has been irritating rattles inside the cars, and lots of issues with gangway doors.

Still fine trains though.

Their Underground counterparts, the 09 stock on the Vic Line, seem to have settled down nicely. Either LU have been better with aftercare and resolving teething issues, or the reliability drop you describe will start to bite in a few years.

 

[sarahj]

It's a shame this is occurring, as the Electrostars should now be at the stage in their life where they are at optimal reliability.

I have noticed the last few journeys I have made (on both Southeastern and Southern) in almost every case there has been irritating rattles inside the cars, and lots of issues with gangway doors.

Still fine trains though.

Their Underground counterparts, the 09 stock on the Vic Line, seem to have settled down nicely. Either LU have been better with aftercare and resolving teething issues, or the reliability drop you describe will start to bite in a few years.

I have to admit the other day i fixed a rattle by hitting it. Bits of ticket also work on the metal panel, supported by metal pins, above the door. That metal on metal rattles like a good un'. Internal gangway doors like to rattle away as well, but their worst habit is opening then shutting very quickly. Trouble is, you re-set it, it works fine. Then 2 hours later it fails again.

 

[swt_passenger]

How about keeping a lot of people happy, run them (with a bi-modal loco) on XC between Poole and Manchester.

Frees up Voyagers for XC to use elsewhere, let's them run on part of their old stomping grounds and is Loco hauled. XC would have to run them as 8 coaches just to cope with the enthusiasts who would be wanting to ride on them!

You'll just need to fit all these 100 mph coaches with spare 125 mph bogies?

 

[The Ham]

You'll just need to fit all these 100 mph coaches with spare 125 mph bogies?

I didn't say that it would be practical, I said it would make a lot of people happy.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Do Electrostars get a full TMS reboot each day before entering service?

 

[krus_aragon]

I thought the dft stated in the tender specifically 'not 442's - it does in the Northern one at least

Northern's ITT specified no 442s, in order to guarantee they'd be available for TPE bidders, if they wanted them.

 

[john.aston.96]

Northern's ITT specified no 442s, in order to guarantee they'd be available for TPE bidders, if they wanted them.

Now TPE doesn't want them, dose that mean Northern now can?

 

[Via Bank]

One would have thought the farce of the 458/5 conversion project would've dissuaded people from the fantasy of an even more complicated conversion project, on even older rolling stock, where the original manufacturer literally no longer exists.

 

[D365]

Do Electrostars get a full TMS reboot each day before entering service?

Do you have any idea how a TMS actually works? Do you want me to go through the full start-up procedure? Will hearing that satisfy you?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

One would have thought the farce of the 458/5 conversion project would've dissuaded people from the fantasy of an even more complicated conversion project, on even older rolling stock, where the original manufacturer literally no longer exists.

You don't know many true enthusiasts then do you?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Do you want me to go through the full start-up procedure? Will hearing that satisfy you?

If I wanted to know the full start-up procedure I would have asked

 

[notadriver]

Do you have any idea how a TMS actually works? Do you want me to go through the full start-up procedure? Will hearing that satisfy

I have a fair idea of what happens and the procedure for cutting in these units.

Which classes of Electrostar units do you sign/drive ?

 

[Antman]

I know the 442 subject has been done to death but being third rail, why does no one ever suggest running them on certain Southeastern routes? Possibly on long distance routes without many stops so the door issue is less pronounced. Maybe fasts for Hastings or Thanet resorts? Would that then free up some 375s for longer trains elsewhere?

Or maybe Victoria to Ashford? Bromley South and Maidstone East are the only busy intermediate stations.

 

[notadriver]

Or maybe Victoria to Ashford? Bromley South and Maidstone East are the only busy intermediate stations.

Southeastern main line trains call at most stations these days. Acceleration is therefore important and 442s don't have that.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Not sure about the whole world, but I can't think of any European system using 3rd rail for long distance express services.

It's a weather thing - Britain is one of the few countries which gets the right sort of weather to make third rail a not completely idiotic option from the outset.

The northern European nations, for example, Sweden, Norway, Germany, north and east France, northern Italy, Austria, Switzerland, Poland and so on, they get significant snow falls each year, have very cold temperatures in winter, so a third rail at track level would be covered in snow and suffer icing problems.

The southern European nations, south France, south Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal, they have the opposite problem - it's very hot during the summer, keeping third rail electrically insulated and permitting significant expansion and contraction of the rail overnight isn't easy, much easier to deal with heat through robust autotensioning on overhead wiring.

Britain slots into a nice little niche, it's not usually so hot in summer than the third rail buckles and falls off the insulator pots, nor is it so cold in winter that thick ice is a major problem, snow certainly isn't a regular issue, so third rail can do its (very poor) job for most of the year without any significant issues.

The more spread out nature of European countries doesn't help the case for third rail either - in Britain, looking at London, Brighton, Gatwick, Bournemouth, Southampton, Dover and so on, lots of towns and cities all very close together, third rail is much much harder to do if you've got 100 miles between town, and not 10 miles.

That's where high voltage AC electrification makes sense - you can feed it pretty much at every point you cross a power line or come into a town/city with an HV supply. The GWEp has only needed two new feeders to be installed - Didcot and Melksham.

 

[BestWestern]

One would have thought the farce of the 458/5 conversion project would've dissuaded people from the fantasy of an even more complicated conversion project, on even older rolling stock, where the original manufacturer literally no longer exists.

Long drawn out, certainly. But it worked, didn't it? A fleet of units which were almost abandoned having been unreliable from brand new, are now lengthened and in everyday service.

When they started rebuilding 73s and putting them on the top end of the Cally Sleeper; when SWT decided to fit brand new traction gear to 455s; when Chiltern fitted plug doors to MK3s - that's when the idea that any project involving doing something drastic with old rolling stock stopped being silly, cos frankly we passed that point a very long time ago. Anything is possible, the deciding factor is whether there is a requirement.

 

[DerekC]

It's a weather thing - Britain is one of the few countries which gets the right sort of weather to make third rail a not completely idiotic option from the outset.

Yes but the decision was a British thing in other ways too. Cheap to build but lousy in every other respect - efficiency, power transfer, maximum speed, safety and weather sensitivity. No need to wonder why nobody else uses it for a serious main line railway. No doubt there is a thread on re-electrification with 25kV somewhere.

 

[route:oxford]

Long drawn out, certainly. But it worked, didn't it? A fleet of units which were almost abandoned having been unreliable from brand new, are now lengthened and in everyday service.

When they started rebuilding 73s and putting them on the top end of the Cally Sleeper; when SWT decided to fit brand new traction gear to 455s; when Chiltern fitted plug doors to MK3s - that's when the idea that any project involving doing something drastic with old rolling stock stopped being silly, cos frankly we passed that point a very long time ago. Anything is possible, the deciding factor is whether there is a requirement.

This is very true. For example, we know that:-

The engines slung beneath the WIP class 230 are 300hp.
There are 4 unpowered carriages on a Class 442
The powered coach of a 442 operates at 1200hp

It all adds up to possibilities.

The trouble would be finding a use for 24 100mph 5 car DMUs

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Yes but the decision was a British thing in other ways too. Cheap to build but lousy in every other respect - efficiency, power transfer, maximum speed, safety and weather sensitivity. No need to wonder why nobody else uses it for a serious main line railway. No doubt there is a thread on re-electrification with 25kV somewhere.

It's something we've discussed with a few times across a number of threads.

The Electric Spine Development Programme is the 'pioneer' program, generally easy going on the conversion/electrification, but lots of paperwork and testing for interference to be checked out first though, and the obvious gauge clearance issues to fix. Brighton Main Line is likely to be the first route to then be converted under a likely rolling program, maybe starting in CP7.

GTR people can advise, but I believe their GatEx Class 387 units will be retaining pantographs as it's expected they will be running on 25kV AC well within their lifetimes.

 

[Kentish Paul]

Or maybe Victoria to Ashford? Bromley South and Maidstone East are the only busy intermediate stations.

Are the 442s cleared for this route? I thought that any 23m carriage wasn't allowed anywhere near Kent.

 

[AM9]

This is very true. For example, we know that:-

The engines slung beneath the WIP class 230 are 300hp.
There are 4 unpowered carriages on a Class 442
The powered coach of a 442 operates at 1200hp

It all adds up to possibilities.

The trouble would be finding a use for 24 100mph 5 car DMUs

The 442s have the EE546 motors removed from 4REPs (which were originally introduced for the class 73 electro-diesels). Those motors are 400hp (300KW) each giving 1600hp (1.2MW). The above figures are only true when the 750V is at its nominal value.