TSGN franchise brands

[plcd1]

Hopefully a simple question and apologies if it has been asked before. I only dip in and out of here relatively infrequently.

Is it a franchise commitment, imposed by the DfT, that TSGN (Govia) operate separate "brands" for Great Northern, Thameslink, Southern and Gatwick Express services? Surely it would just be simpler to have one company name?

I ask because it seems there is an inordinate amount of tweeting and faffing about when there is disruption about accepting each "company"'s tickets. I know Gatwick Airport ticketing creates problems but does anyone really care about a Thameslink ticket being used on a Southern train to Brighton? All the money goes to the DfT anyway as TSGN isn't a conventional revenue risk bearing franchse.

 

[Iskra]

Hopefully a simple question and apologies if it has been asked before. I only dip in and out of here relatively infrequently.

Is it a franchise commitment, imposed by the DfT, that TSGN (Govia) operate separate "brands" for Great Northern, Thameslink, Southern and Gatwick Express services? Surely it would just be simpler to have one company name?

I ask because it seems there is an inordinate amount of tweeting and faffing about when there is disruption about accepting each "company"'s tickets. I know Gatwick Airport ticketing creates problems but does anyone really care about a Thameslink ticket being used on a Southern train to Brighton? All the money goes to the DfT anyway as TSGN isn't a conventional revenue risk bearing franchse.

Excuse my ignorance, but why isn't it? As a Northerner, it isn't a franchise I know much about...

 

[Stats]

Can worms opened !

It is a requirement to use the Thameslink name as one of the brands. It was an ITT requirement to maintain and enhance the Gatwick Express brand, but unlike the previous Southern franchise there isn't any mention of it in the public franchise agreement. It was also an ITT requirement to simplify fares on the Brighton mainline but in a way to avoid undue financial hardship on the commuters who used the former FCC fares by increasing them in a single year. GTR chose to do this by keeping the former franchises with separate brands and reduce the differential over a number of years. There is also a requirement to use efficiencies where possible but not in such a way as to prohibit the different areas from being split up again.
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Excuse my ignorance, but why isn't it? As a Northerner, it isn't a franchise I know much about...

The TSGN franchise is a management contract. Unlike other franchise where the ticket revenue goes to the TOC, all ticket revenue goes to the DfT and Govia get paid a management fee.

 

[ainsworth74]

Excuse my ignorance, but why isn't it? As a Northerner, it isn't a franchise I know much about...

Because of the complex infrastructure and service enhancements that are either happening now or taking place over the next few years (London Bridge remodelling is happening now and then soon we'll have the launch of the new Thameslink services with the 700s for example). It's only shortish franchise as it runs out in 2021 after which the plan is to let a longer franchise with a more conventional revenue risk model.

 

[plcd1]

Can worms opened !

It is a requirement to use the Thameslink name as one of the brands. It was an ITT requirement to maintain and enhance the Gatwick Express brand, but unlike the previous Southern franchise there isn't any mention of it in the public franchise agreement. It was also an ITT requirement to simplify fares on the Brighton mainline but in a way to avoid undue financial hardship on the commuters who used the former FCC fares by increasing them in a single year. GTR chose to do this by keeping the former franchises with separate brands and reduce the differential over a number of years. There is also a requirement to use efficiencies where possible but not in such a way as to prohibit the different areas from being split up again.

Thank you for a clear answer to what is seemingly a muddle within the franchise contract and which doesn't bring much clarity for passengers.

 

[MarkyT]

Looking at it another way the branding does help passengers distinguish trains for different groups of routes when they often depart from the same platforms. When the GN Kings Cross outer suburban services start running through the TL core, I assume they will all be under the TL brand with only the Moorgate inner suburban remaining branded as GN. On Japan's very complex suburban networks it's common for different lines to be different colours and brands to be recognisable on common sections even when they're run by the same company. Back in Southern land it also avoided wasteful rebranding of the entire DC fleet and all the stations south of the Thames.

 

[plcd1]

Looking at it another way the branding does help passengers distinguish trains for different groups of routes when they often depart from the same platforms. When the GN Kings Cross outer suburban services start running through the TL core, I assume they will all be under the TL brand with only the Moorgate inner suburban remaining branded as GN. On Japan's very complex suburban networks it's common for different lines to be different colours and brands to be recognisable on common sections even when they're run by the same company. Back in Southern land it also avoided wasteful rebranding of the entire DC fleet and all the stations south of the Thames.

Oh sure I understand that. The thing that struck me as borderline ridiculous was maintaining the "image" that there are separate companies involved when it is just one that has overall responsibility. Clearly moving from the old FCC and old Southern to a new TSGN was never going to be easy given the complexity that was inherited. As you say the future poses presentational issues for the service pattern but let's hope the ticketing and cross acceptance (in the event of disruption) rules are vastly simpler come 2018 or else people don't stand a chance of understanding what's going on.

Crossrail (currently) looks like a paragon of virtue and simplicity compared to Thameslink but that may change by the time of opening. And before anyone howls yes the Overground brand is complex and spread rather thinly.

 

[zoneking]

The complete national rail timetable uses the code TL for all services, including Southern and Gatwick Express.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Crossrail (currently) looks like a paragon of virtue and simplicity compared to Thameslink but that may change by the time of opening. And before anyone howls yes the Overground brand is complex and spread rather thinly.

I'm not sure the Overground branding is any more complex than the German S-Bahn concept, which is essentially the same thing. Sometimes it's segregated third-rail routes (Hamburg, some of Berlin), other times it's dedicated OHLE EMUs on regular lines, and others it's just normal regional trains shown as "S bis <destination>" as the S4 used to be in Hamburg before the HVV was expanded.

Yet that remains a strong brand, just as Overground hopefully will.

 

[jon0844]

It's a fine brand but I can't imagine how things would have been if the entire underground had been one name and one colour.

I do think there needs to be some way to differentiate individual lines/routes better. Likewise for DLR.

I'm not saying it's life or death, but it would be nice. Perhaps even line numbers or letters could work?

 

[redbutton]

It's a fine brand but I can't imagine how things would have been if the entire underground had been one name and one colour.

I do think there needs to be some way to differentiate individual lines/routes better. Likewise for DLR.

I'm not saying it's life or death, but it would be nice. Perhaps even line numbers or letters could work?

Neil Williams mentioned the S-Bahn, which has numbered lines. I think that would help as the Overground expands, similarly to how they refer to Crossrail 1 and 2. I hope those Crossrail numbered designations stay if/when they open.

 

[physics34]

I would suggest the southern brand has been damaged beyond repair after recent disruption and the London Bridge chaos.

With the current livery, logo and name now 12 years old or so maybe it's due for a change anyway.

 

[A-driver]

Looking at it another way the branding does help passengers distinguish trains for different groups of routes when they often depart from the same platforms. When the GN Kings Cross outer suburban services start running through the TL core, I assume they will all be under the TL brand with only the Moorgate inner suburban remaining branded as GN. On Japan's very complex suburban networks it's common for different lines to be different colours and brands to be recognisable on common sections even when they're run by the same company. Back in Southern land it also avoided wasteful rebranding of the entire DC fleet and all the stations south of the Thames.

GN will still have Moorgates, kings Lynn's and some Peterborough and cambrodge services. Only some of the trains from Peterborough, Cambridge and welwyn will be running through the core.

 

[Stats]

It would be interesting to know whether the other TSGN bidders proposed using different trading names, or whether this really is a Govia initative.

 

[Class377/5]

The complete national rail timetable uses the code TL for all services, including Southern and Gatwick Express.

Thats because the company running the services is Govia Thameslink Railway so TL is the correct code.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I would suggest the southern brand has been damaged beyond repair after recent disruption and the London Bridge chaos.

With the current livery, logo and name now 12 years old or so maybe it's due for a change anyway.

Most of which was nothing to do with SN. That said, VT managed to rebuild their reputation from the low it had got to with their poorly maintained BR stock.

 

[AM9]

Most of which was nothing to do with SN. That said, VT managed to rebuild their reputation from the low it had got to with their poorly maintained BR stock.

Another factor is that the word 'southern', despite it being extinct since 1994, is still seen as all things 3rd rail south of the Thames by some older people. For them the Southern Railway or BR Southern Region, whilst not seen as a sparkling operation, it had been the life-blood of travel in the region for many for decades.