Gatwick express to Brighton and tickets

[sarahj]

Was surprised to note at Brighton yesterday that the departure boards had a message on the new services from Brighton to Victoria via Gatwick say 'any permitted tickets only'. I guess this is to stop 'TL only' ticket holders, but this also excludes tickets marked 'southern only' and tickets that say 'not gat ex'..
I don't think this seems to have been thought through. Thoughts?

(I've been on rest days, so have missed to start of the new timetable and the 'issues' that have affected BML this week)

 

[Bletchleyite]

AIUI GTR are not allowed to do this. If they are doing it on a blanket basis rather than just Gatwick-London, I'd imagine it is only a matter of time until they are called out on it. Though perhaps it's more likely it's a PIS note made in the wrong place.

 

[Dhassell]

The tickets have to be Any Permitted

 

[zoneking]

Table 184 of the National Rail Timetable has all services from Brighton to London with code TL.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse.../Complete timetable - Separate PDFs.zip?a=new

 

[Tetchytyke]

I don't think this seems to have been thought through. Thoughts?

I'd say it was a well-meaning but completely cack-handed attempt to make it clear that tickets marked "Thameslink Only" are not valid* on Gatwick Express branded trains.

*Don't talk about how Gatwick Express are Southern are Thameslink or I'll cry

 

[yorkie]

Was surprised to note at Brighton yesterday that the departure boards had a message on the new services from Brighton to Victoria via Gatwick say 'any permitted tickets only'. I guess this is to stop 'TL only' ticket holders, but this also excludes tickets marked 'southern only' and tickets that say 'not gat ex'..

I agree, Govia ThameslinK Railway are trying to stop people using Thameslink Only tickets on these Govia Thameslink Railway operated services.

Govia Thameslink Railway are, however, not lawfully or contractually permitted to exclude these tickets, as they must adhere to NRCoC Condition 10, which only allows tickets to be restricted to those of a Company, not a brand, as detailed in Govia Thameslink Railway: Issues regarding ticket validity across brands

I don't think this seems to have been thought through. Thoughts?

I agree. I think they are trying to get people to pay more to use their less busy route that is considered a 'premium' route, than the price they are happy for people to pay for their incredibly busy route that isn't considered to be a 'premium' route.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Table 184 of the National Rail Timetable has all services from Brighton to London with code TL.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/eNRT/Dec15/Complete%20timetable%20-%20Separate%20PDFs.zip?a=new

Indeed, and that's correct; the operator is Thameslink. Confusingly, the operator is using multiple brands (as described in TSGN franchise brands) and in some instances purports that some of these brands are companies.

But they are not separate companies; there is only one Company operating the franchise and that is Govia Thameslink Railway. Their route map makes it clear this is one company with multiple route brands, though interestingly it doesn't show their Gatwick Express red route as going to Brighton!

 

[100andthirty]

Oh how we used to laugh at Steve Punt and Hugh Dennis poking fun at BR's Super Savers because they were "so complicated". Oh how we now wish for those "so complicated" days.

 

[CNash]

Govia can't have their cake and eat it too. If they want to run Southern as well as Thameslink etc., they have to face the consequences, in this case losing the ability to restrict "Southern" tickets on "Thameslink" routes.

 

[JamesRowden]

Was surprised to note at Brighton yesterday that the departure boards had a message on the new services from Brighton to Victoria via Gatwick say 'any permitted tickets only'. I guess this is to stop 'TL only' ticket holders, but this also excludes tickets marked 'southern only' and tickets that say 'not gat ex'..
I don't think this seems to have been thought through. Thoughts?

(I've been on rest days, so have missed to start of the new timetable and the 'issues' that have affected BML this week)

People can use Bexhill/Hastings-London `via Haywards Heath' tickets which are the same price as Brighton-London `Not Gatwick Express' tickets.

 

[Starmill]

The tickets have to be Any Permitted

What about tickets marked +VTWC&CONNECTS? I'd like to see you try to turn me away...

 

[sheff1]

The tickets have to be Any Permitted

Nonsense.

If I have an Anytime Single from Brighton to Sheffield routed '✠VIA CHESTERFIELD' I can use any train I like between Brighton and London regardless of any false information displayed by Govia.

 

[gray1404]

Has this reached a point now where by we can report Govia ThameslinK Railway to the DfT and ORR? If so, I'd be happy to do the submission (with some guidence perhaps). It was already a problem with "Southern only" tickets not being valid on Gatwick Express - even though it was operated by Southern, then when Govia ThameslinK Railway was esbablished that continued along with people with Thameslink being told they can not use their tickets. More recently, with the Gatwick Express services extending to Brighton, this has opened another can of worms and, as usual, it is the innocent customer who is given grief and suffers. Enough of this! It is time for this to be settled.

I'd also be happy to get to get together on mass with some forum members and travel on such services with "valid" tickets and see what happenes and gather evidence.

 

[yorkie]

Has this reached a point now where by we can report Govia ThameslinK Railway to the DfT and ORR?

Yes, but if you have not been 'wronged' they are unlikely to do anything.

If so, I'd be happy to do the submission (with some guidence perhaps). It was already a problem with "Southern only" tickets not being valid on Gatwick Express - even though it was operated by Southern,

When Southern was a Train Company, most people were 'let off', everyone who reported on here that they were charged and asked for a refund got one (in many cases with further compensation, not just a refund), so it never got referred to the DfT/ORR as far as I know.

then when Govia ThameslinK Railway was esbablished that continued along with people with Thameslink being told they can not use their tickets. More recently, with the Gatwick Express services extending to Brighton, this has opened another can of worms and, as usual, it is the innocent customer who is given grief and suffers. Enough of this! It is time for this to be settled.

I'd also be happy to get to get together on mass with some forum members and travel on such services with "valid" tickets and see what happenes and gather evidence.

Agreed, but I suspect you won't be charged. If you are charged, they will probably agree to a refund, in order to avoid it being tested in any way.

 

[gray1404]

Yes, but if you have not been 'wronged' they are unlikely to do anything.
When Southern was a Train Company, most people were 'let off', everyone who reported on here that they were charged and asked for a refund got one (in many cases with further compensation, not just a refund), so it never got referred to the DfT/ORR as far as I know.

Agreed, but I suspect you won't be charged. If you are charged, they will probably agree to a refund, in order to avoid it being tested in any way.

It sounds to me then that until such time that a passenger is "wronged" in some way and they refuse to "correct" the matter afterwards then only then can the DfT and ORR get involved. So for us, our hands are tied until then and the current mess will continue.

In the mean time customers will continue to be told (at least) their tickets are invalid and have to go through the hastle of difficult conversations. Personally, I am just boarding any service I like now regardless of routing, i.e. any Govia Thamslink Service (Southern, Thameslink, Gatwick Express) with any ticket that is Thameslink Only, Southern Only, Any Permitted, Not Underground, Not Gatwick Express - regardless. The day theres a problem over it I shall offer my name and address if they want to take it further or issue me with a PF (it won't be getting paid) but am not getting dragged into any difficult conversations on board or on the platform with people who havn't a clue what they're talking about. I've really had enough of this now and all this sub branding nonsense.

Of course, with my advance tickets I stick to the booked service, but in the event of service cancellations or severe delays, if the next service is a different brand to the "Southern Only" route on my ticket, I am going to board that on the basis I am sticking to the same TOC restriction i.e. Govia Thameslink Railway.

 

[yorkie]

It sounds to me then that until such time that a passenger is "wronged" in some way and they refuse to "correct" the matter afterwards then only then can the DfT and ORR get involved.

Nothing to stop DfT/ORR getting involved now, surely?

However, realistically, they won't.

It's in the DfT's interests that passengers overpay anyway!

 

[CyrusWuff]

DfT are also unlikely to do anything given that it's their requirement that GTR retain the Gatwick Express brand as a premium service between Victoria and Gatwick. That it's all of one minute faster than the fastest "Southern" services (and two minutes slower than the fastest "Thameslink" services between London Bridge and Gatwick) is neither here nor there!

What is certain, however, is that if they were forced to drop the brand-specific fares, GTR would likely just retain the premium GatEx fares for all three brands...

 

[talldave]

Was surprisjed to note at Brighton yesterday that the departure boards had a message on the new services from Brighton to Victoria via Gatwick say 'any permitted tickets only'. I guess this is to stop 'TL only' ticket holders, but this also excludes tickets marked 'southern only' and tickets that say 'not gat ex'..
I don't think this seems to have been thought through. Thoughts?

Spot on. But Southern/GTR rarely think about anything, spot any of their own errors or fix anything quickly. Whether it's dodgy message boards, staff ignorance of off peak restrictions, ticket barrier programming, TVM errors, website errors, or idiotic email responses from Customer Services, there's an endemic culture of incompetence in everything other than running trains.

These lies on ticket validity just sum up their contempt for paying customers.

 

[sheff1]

These lies on ticket validity just sum up their contempt for paying customers.

What I find interesting is that these lies are often backed up as true on this forum - see post #3 in this thread for example.

 

[yorkie]

DfT are also unlikely to do anything given that it's their requirement that GTR retain the Gatwick Express brand ...

I don't see any more onerous requirements on GTR with their Gatwick Express route, than those required of Greater Anglia with their Stansted Express route?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...if they were forced to drop the brand-specific fares...

I understand they already are, but slowly. There is no provision in the NRCoC for brand-restricted fares; these are Company restricted fares and are valid under Condition 10 on all services operated by the Company (regardless of route brand).

....Shadow transport secretary Mary Creagh said cheaper Thameslink-only tickets from Brighton to London, currently offered by First Capital Connect, will be phased out....

 

[Starmill]

What is certain, however, is that if they were forced to drop the brand-specific fares, GTR would likely just retain the premium GatEx fares for all three brands...

There's a very good reason why this is unlikely; Price Elasticity of Demand!

 

[greatkingrat]

Maybe they should just declare the Gatwick Express as first class only, then they can legally charge a higher fare for it!

 

[Skimpot flyer]

What is certain, however, is that if they were forced to drop the brand-specific fares, GTR would likely just retain the premium GatEx fares for all three brands...

But if they did do that, what's to stop the savvy person, intending to travel from Victoria to Gatwick, buying instead a (cheaper) Victoria - Three Bridges ticket, and just stopping short ?

 

[bb21]

I'd also be happy to get to get together on mass with some forum members and travel on such services with "valid" tickets and see what happenes and gather evidence.

I doubt it will achieve much, if anything, especially if the DfT got involved, and it is not inconceivable that we may well see an amendment to the wording of Condition 10 to put an end to this argument.

I wonder whether such differential pricing is doing its job and how many problems it causes outside the fares enthusiast circle. If things work pretty well atm, why would the DfT want to rock the boat and upset revenue forecasts than normalise the situation, if something had to be done?

Sorry but the more I think about it, the more sceptical I get.

 

[gray1404]

I doubt it will achieve much, if anything, especially if the DfT got involved, and it is not inconceivable that we may well see an amendment to the wording of Condition 10 to put an end to this argument.

How easy is it thought for the DfT to simply make amendments to the NRCoC? It is a lengthy process that they have to go through and would it be hard for them to achieve something that is not in the customers interests.

I do accept your point though as to how many real problems it does actually cause for those of us who are not actually into trains, not many most likely.

 

[Starmill]

Let's say you kick up a big enough fuss for a relatively high priority item to land on the Minister's desk unexpectedly.

Is his team going to spend weeks dealing with it, negotiating with GTR and liasing with ATOC? Or do their best to close the issue ASAP and hope nobody notices or tries to hold them to account?

The system is unjust in almost every way, the GTR Branding issue is a function of that. By getting inoving this you can lose, but you can't win. And it might set a dangerous precedent elsewhere if we do loose.

As with almost every element of contemporary railway regulation in the UK the best thing you can do is probably just make the best of it for yourself and forget everything else.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Maybe they should just declare the Gatwick Express as first class only, then they can legally charge a higher fare for it!

You know I almost wouldn't be opposed to that if they gave it a luxury interior and charged a sensible premium. Instead they're charging a laughable premium and using an 'Ironing Board' interior.

 

[Stats]

I doubt it will achieve much, if anything, especially if the DfT got involved, and it is not inconceivable that we may well see an amendment to the wording of Condition 10 to put an end to this argument.

No change is needed to the wording of Condition 10. What is needed is more clarity on the definition of Train Company. The list of Train Companies to which the NRCOC applies is provided in Appendix A. This is stated throughout the CoC. This identifies the separate trading names of all TOCs as distinct entities for the purposes of applying the NRCOC and as such Condition 10 allows GTR to issue tickets restricted to the part of their company that trades under each trading name. The issue is whether Appendix A is consistent with the definition of Train Company given in the list of definitions in the CoC. I know what most people that will post on this thread will think, but its how those in the legal profession that see it what matters.

As for the particular issue raised in the first post, I do not agree with the ticket restrictions that the platform displays are suggesting. The reasons given for extending the service to Brighton are to make better use of available capacity, not to provide Brighton with a "premium" service. It is therefore my view that the same tickets that were valid on the services they replaced should remain valid on these services, and no additional restrictions should be imposed.

 

[Starmill]

Well I would have loved to use my 'Via Barnham' ticket on the fast train from Brighton to London Victoria (for my journey via Gatwick Airport, to Redhill) this afternoon but I was prevented from doing so - because it was bloomin' cancelled!

 

[PermitToTravel]

What about tickets marked +VTWC&CONNECTS? I'd like to see you try to turn me away...

Dhassell isn't old enough to work on a gateline so won't be trying to turn you away

 

[feline1]

I am mildly flabberghasted by the info revealed on this thread.
For the past 6 months, I have been commuting from Brighton to Warren Street Tube, via London Victoria.
I've been using Monthly season tickets (standard class).
Initially I was very confused about what ticket I should buy as the Southern "mixing desk" website brought up such a confusing variety of fares.

I actually had to ring up their Customer Services and had to spend the best part of half an hour asking them to explain the selection.

I was particularly confused by why they appeared to be selling "Brighton - London Zones 1-6 (Thameslink only)" tickets (£393.30) compared to "Brighton - London Zones 1-6" (Any permitted route) (£503.50)

"But no Thameslink trains go to Victoria?" I asked. "That's right".
"So the £393 ticket isn't valid for going to Victoria" "No, it isn't".
"So why does the website bring it up in the search results?" "I'm not sure, sir! lol"

I usually get the 07:12 BTN to VIC Gatwick Express service each morning.
Regularly, the conductor will announce "Tickets market 'Thameslink only' are not valid on this service. If you are in possession of such a ticket, please alight from the train and proceed to platform No.5, where you'll find your next Thameslink service departing at blah blah..."

From what I read on this thread (and the links to supporting documents seem to support it 100%), I have been completely duped by Southern, and a 'Thameslink only' ticket was valid on my route.

For the past 6 months, I've paid about £110 too much for my ticket!

I'll bet literally hundreds of thousands of others have too. This could be the next PPI!

I'll be writing to Southern requesting a refund of the excess, and escalating to Passenger Focus if I don't get satisfaction. I'll also be writing to my MP Caroline Lucas.
I dare say the local press will be interested too.

 

[tuzisnow]

Today I purchased a Super Off Peak Day Single (with Gold Card discount) for £9.55 from Brighton to London. The ticket says "NOT GATWICK EXP". I did not know that Gatwick Express fares south of Gatwick Airport were different. At Victoria I was told by a surly GatEx RP person that on this occasion she would not charge me the full fare but I would have to pay the difference as Gatwick Express has a higher fare. She was patronising. I asked who the MD of her company was and she said she didn't have a clue. What is the situation here? Are GTR allowed to charge higher fares or not? If they are, it is utterly bonkers and I am writing to Claire Perry MP, the Rail Minister, to complain.