Surviving council owned bus companies in 2016

[Y961 XBU]

I can see Network Warrington going sooner rather than later, People are starting to turn their backs on them with all these price rises, its about £25 quid for a weekly!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

*how* much? It's not even that big a town...

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

*how* much? It's not even that big a town...

Wow - that's exorbitant! Northampton is a similar sized town and the cost of a multi-operator ticket is £16 (and Stagecoach's own ticket is £12.80)

 

[Tetchytyke]

I just feel that if they were private, then those things wouldn't happen and the bus fares would be cheaper.

If you think £1.90 for a single is "expensive", your eyes would pop out of your socket if you saw how much your beloved private bus companies charge for similar journeys up here.

I can see Network Warrington going sooner rather than later, People are starting to turn their backs on them with all these price rises, its about £25 quid for a weekly!!

£90 for a monthly and £760 for an annual. Never mind free WiFi and plastic e-leather seats, for that price I'd expect a pretty young lady handing me a free G&T on boarding. It's only £91 a month on Arriva North East for any bus from Berwick to Scarborough :eek:

Remind me to never ever ever bitch about Stagecoach Newcastle's fares ever again

 

[Busaholic]

How is Nottingham faring since the advent of the new tram routes, in which of course they are not allowed a stake?

To my mind though, and only going on what I read in the transport press, Newport might be the most vulnerable.

 

[MedwayValiant]

The thing about Network Warrington's very high weekly fare is that it covers the whole network - places as far afield as Leigh and Northwich. They used to have a different (cheaper) weekly ticket which only covered Warrington itself, but no longer.

I discovered this last week when I was attempting to show that the Medway Towns have the most expensive buses in the country. Arriva charges £6.00 for a day ticket and £20.00 for a weekly in Medway - and Warrington is the only large town which charges more.

To make the Medway situation worse though, Arriva don't go to the major employment area of Medway City Estate. Only Nu-Venture go there, and there is no "all operators" ticket (other than PlusBus). Which means that if you need to go to MCE, daily become £9.50 and weekly becomes £32.00.

Getting back to the original question, you'd have to imagine that Stagecoach would be quite keen to take over Thamesdown if Swindon Borough Council ever wanted to sell. They already have interavailability of tickets, and neither operator even offers a single operator daily or weekly ticket.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The thing about Network Warrington's very high weekly fare is that it covers the whole network - places as far afield as Leigh and Northwich. They used to have a different (cheaper) weekly ticket which only covered Warrington itself, but no longer.

I discovered this last week when I was attempting to show that the Medway Towns have the most expensive buses in the country. Arriva charges £6.00 for a day ticket and £20.00 for a weekly in Medway - and Warrington is the only large town which charges more.

To make the Medway situation worse though, Arriva don't go to the major employment area of Medway City Estate. Only Nu-Venture go there, and there is no "all operators" ticket (other than PlusBus). Which means that if you need to go to MCE, daily become £9.50 and weekly becomes £32.00.

Getting back to the original question, you'd have to imagine that Stagecoach would be quite keen to take over Thamesdown if Swindon Borough Council ever wanted to sell. They already have interavailability of tickets, and neither operator even offers a single operator daily or weekly ticket.

I'm sure that there would be willing buyers for all of the remaining businesses. However, there would appear to be little chance of Thamesdown being sold and Stagecoach have sold their current depot location and are moving to a new site so probably shows that they don't expect anything to happen soon.

 

[Y961 XBU]

Even if that £25 quid weekly is valid on all their routes its still a rip off, You can get a Stagecoach Megarider Gold for only 2 quid more and that will cover you all the way from Merseyside into Scotland

 

[Deerfold]

How is Nottingham faring since the advent of the new tram routes, in which of course they are not allowed a stake?

To my mind though, and only going on what I read in the transport press, Newport might be the most vulnerable.

NCT don't seem to affected much yet. Trentbarton are lowering the frequency of the indigo from 9bph to 6bph between Long Eaton and Nottingham;NCT still have 8bph Chilwell to Nottingham, Yourbus 6bph and the tram has 6-8tph.

 

[AB93]

I discovered this last week when I was attempting to show that the Medway Towns have the most expensive buses in the country. Arriva charges £6.00 for a day ticket and £20.00 for a weekly in Medway - and Warrington is the only large town which charges more.

Unfortunately you've also 'lost' to Southern Vectis, who charge £10 for a day ticket and £24 for a week.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you think £1.90 for a single is "expensive", your eyes would pop out of your socket if you saw how much your beloved private bus companies charge for similar journeys up here.

£90 for a monthly and £760 for an annual. Never mind free WiFi and plastic e-leather seats, for that price I'd expect a pretty young lady handing me a free G&T on boarding. It's only £91 a month on Arriva North East for any bus from Berwick to Scarborough :eek:

Remind me to never ever ever bitch about Stagecoach Newcastle's fares ever again

Don't forget Reading's £1.90 single is only within the town area - they have singles much dearer - plenty are over £5 with £5.40 their most expensive single fare.

Reading's Reading-area weekly is £16, their whole network weekly £22.
Stagecoach Newcastle come in under £16 for their whole network.

 

[krus_aragon]

I can't see Cardiff Bus being bought out any time soon, it's been chugging along too healthily for that. The only "threat" I could foresee to it (and Newport Bus) is if it were swallowed up by the new South East Wales Metro.

 

[MedwayValiant]

Unfortunately you've also 'lost' to Southern Vectis, who charge £10 for a day ticket and £24 for a week.

Those fares covers the whole island. But since Southern Vectis don't do a cheaper product which covers just Newport or just Ryde, they do stand comparison with Network Warrington's £5.95 a day or £25.50 a week.

Mind you, neither Newport nor Ryde is anything like so large a town as Medway or Warrington. I've never been to the IoW, but are those towns large enough that people who pay fares would actually use a bus just to go from home into town?

I'm thinking of various small towns in England where the hourly town service is only really used by ENCTS holders. These towns are sufficiently small that people of working age who can walk, do walk. Are the two main towns of the IoW bigger than that?

 

[Antman]

The thing about Network Warrington's very high weekly fare is that it covers the whole network - places as far afield as Leigh and Northwich. They used to have a different (cheaper) weekly ticket which only covered Warrington itself, but no longer.

I discovered this last week when I was attempting to show that the Medway Towns have the most expensive buses in the country. Arriva charges £6.00 for a day ticket and £20.00 for a weekly in Medway - and Warrington is the only large town which charges more.

To make the Medway situation worse though, Arriva don't go to the major employment area of Medway City Estate. Only Nu-Venture go there, and there is no "all operators" ticket (other than PlusBus). Which means that if you need to go to MCE, daily become £9.50 and weekly becomes £32.00.

Getting back to the original question, you'd have to imagine that Stagecoach would be quite keen to take over Thamesdown if Swindon Borough Council ever wanted to sell. They already have interavailability of tickets, and neither operator even offers a single operator daily or weekly ticket.

But it is only £7 something for an Arriva ticket that covers all the south east

 

[Bletchleyite]

Vectis are an oddity in having such a price-insensitive tourist market. But even so, it's pricey - but you can see the high quality and coverage you get for that price, unlike with Network Warrington.

The Isle of Wight is basically semi-rural - what other semi-rural area has that quality and variety of service at any price?

 

[WestCoast]

Blackpool seems to have had a good year, they made a major investment in the fleet with the arrival of the high-spec Citaros for the "Palladium" service. Also, the replacement of some long winding routes with the orbital services 12/13 and 15/16 to improve service reliability. £13.50 for a weekly that covers the buses and trams seems to represent decent value. The only serious local competitor is Classic Bus/Oakwood Travel/what they are called this week.

 

[tbone]

NCT don't seem to affected much yet. Trentbarton are lowering the frequency of the indigo from 9bph to 6bph between Long Eaton and Nottingham;NCT still have 8bph Chilwell to Nottingham, Yourbus 6bph and the tram has 6-8tph.

Loadings on both the 36 and Y36 do seem fairly low recently, given that the two routes directly compete I imagine that neither operator wants to make the first move with cuts but I dare say they're inevitable. Y36 is/was one of yourbus' strongest routes too.

 

[nottinghamcity]

How is Nottingham faring since the advent of the new tram routes, in which of course they are not allowed a stake?

This was always only going to significantly affect the 36, a small part of the NCT network and at that probably only the chilwell and Beeston part of the route. TB's 18 and YB's y5 follow the tram route more directly. Clifton is too complex to be adequately tram served fully, and it appears a large portion of tram usage is P&R

 

[AB93]

Mind you, neither Newport nor Ryde is anything like so large a town as Medway or Warrington. I've never been to the IoW, but are those towns large enough that people who pay fares would actually use a bus just to go from home into town?

Yes

I'm thinking of various small towns in England where the hourly town service is only really used by ENCTS holders. These towns are sufficiently small that people of working age who can walk, do walk. Are the two main towns of the IoW bigger than that?

Yes. Cowes is big enough too, and I'd say the combination of Sandown, Lake and Shanklin is also.

While, yes, the day/week ticket does cover the whole island, unfortunately, hardly anyone (apart from tourists) actually travels from one side of the island right across Newport to the other by bus, yet they're basically paying for the privilege.

Vectis are an oddity in having such a price-insensitive tourist market. But even so, it's pricey - but you can see the high quality and coverage you get for that price, unlike with Network Warrington.

The Isle of Wight is basically semi-rural - what other semi-rural area has that quality and variety of service at any price?

I'm not sure I can fully agree with that, having seen a number of times tourists gasp in shock and/or get back off the bus after being told the price! I've even seen drivers apologising for the fare.

The other thing is, the regular users - the locals keeping SV going through the winter - are also of course the ones paying the high prices, which really isn't ideal for them, particularly given the lower-than-average wages on the island compared to the mainland.

I do agree however that the service provision is excellent, and that, given the mainly rural nature of the network, a higher price can be expected. However, I think that for most people, the prices have now crossed the line of what they consider reasonable.

 

[MedwayValiant]

But it is only £7 something for an Arriva ticket that covers all the south east

£7.00, in fact, or £30.00 for a week's ticket. Quite why Arriva charge £6.00 for Medway but only £1.00 more for what they claim as the whole south east (in reality, half of Kent plus Crowborough) I don't really know.

If you pay £7.20 for an Explorer ticket you also get Stagecoach services in Kent and East Sussex, although there is no weekly version of this.

Stagecoach sell the same Explorer ticket cheaper (£6.50), which has a couple of silly consequences. There are no longer any Stagecoach services in Medway so you can't buy the Explorer at their price. But there are in Maidstone, so if you buy an Explorer from a Stagecoach driver in Maidstone and then don't travel on his bus, you can go on Arriva services to Chatham and thence Bluewater and back for £6.50. Which is less than Arriva's return fare from Chatham to Bluewater!

Yes. Cowes is big enough too, and I'd say the combination of Sandown, Lake and Shanklin is also.

While, yes, the day/week ticket does cover the whole island, unfortunately, hardly anyone (apart from tourists) actually travels from one side of the island right across Newport to the other by bus, yet they're basically paying for the privilege.

You wouldn't buy the day ticket to commute within one town, since the single fare on the Newport town service and the Ryde town service is £2.50. (No returns on Southern Vectis, so £5.00 a day.)

But to commute all week, you would buy the weekly ticket - and so yes, the towns of the Isle of Wight join Warrington in being more expensive than Medway.

 

[ashworth]

£7.00, in fact, or £30.00 for a week's ticket. Quite why Arriva charge £6.00 for Medway but only £1.00 more for what they claim as the whole south east (in reality, half of Kent plus Crowborough) I don't really know.

If you pay £7.20 for an Explorer ticket you also get Stagecoach services in Kent and East Sussex, although there is no weekly version of this.

Stagecoach sell the same Explorer ticket cheaper (£6.50), which has a couple of silly consequences. There are no longer any Stagecoach services in Medway so you can't buy the Explorer at their price. But there are in Maidstone, so if you buy an Explorer from a Stagecoach driver in Maidstone and then don't travel on his bus, you can go on Arriva services to Chatham and thence Bluewater and back for £6.50. Which is less than Arriva's return fare from Chatham to Bluewater!

I spent a week in Kent this summer staying with friends in Sittingbourne and soon found out that I was paying more for an Explorer Ticket from Arriva than I would from Stagecoach in East Kent.

I actually didn't find the bus travel from Sittingbourne very convenient. There seemed to be a very good service from Arriva in Medway and surrounding areas to the west of me. Also there were very good Stagecoach services in Canterbury, Thanet and the coast around Dover to the east. However, there seemed to be this area in the middle, including Sittingbourne, that did not belong to either area and received a very poor service with no evening buses whatsoever. I never did really get to grips as to where Chalkwell Coaches ran and their fares.

Fortunately, there was a very good train service that ran well into the early hours, and reasonably priced for local off peak returns and so I tended to begin and finish my days out by train.

 

[Busaholic]

I spent a week in Kent this summer staying with friends in Sittingbourne and soon found out that I was paying more for an Explorer Ticket from Arriva than I would from Stagecoach in East Kent.

I actually didn't find the bus travel from Sittingbourne very convenient. There seemed to be a very good service from Arriva in Medway and surrounding areas to the west of me. Also there were very good Stagecoach services in Canterbury, Thanet and the coast around Dover to the east. However, there seemed to be this area in the middle, including Sittingbourne, that did not belong to either area and received a very poor service with no evening buses whatsoever. I never did really get to grips as to where Chalkwell Coaches ran and their fares.

Fortunately, there was a very good train service that ran well into the early hours, and reasonably priced for local off peak returns and so I tended to begin and finish my days out by train.

It doesn't sound that much has changed since I bought my first house there, for £4,150 (it was a while ago). Then there was a bus every ten minutes to Chatham and then on to Gravesend, the same route going the other way to Faversham half-hourly and, if memory serves, even to Canterbury hourly for a year or two. Maidstone, though, which unlike the other places mentioned, was a pain to get to by train, only ever had an hourly service. Evening services were virtually non-existent, save for the 26 to Chatham, Sunday services ditto. The only buses I remember on a Sunday on the Old Dover Road were the London routemasters taking staff parties to Margate, etc, in the summer!

 

[Antman]

It doesn't sound that much has changed since I bought my first house there, for £4,150 (it was a while ago). Then there was a bus every ten minutes to Chatham and then on to Gravesend, the same route going the other way to Faversham half-hourly and, if memory serves, even to Canterbury hourly for a year or two. Maidstone, though, which unlike the other places mentioned, was a pain to get to by train, only ever had an hourly service. Evening services were virtually non-existent, save for the 26 to Chatham, Sunday services ditto. The only buses I remember on a Sunday on the Old Dover Road were the London routemasters taking staff parties to Margate, etc, in the summer!

A bus every 10 minutes to Chatham? I think they are hourly nowadays provided by Chalkwell? There is a half hourly service to Maidstone though provided by Arriva, one continues to Faversham the other to Sittingbourne

 

[Busaholic]

A bus every 10 minutes to Chatham? I think they are hourly nowadays provided by Chalkwell? There is a half hourly service to Maidstone though provided by Arriva, one continues to Faversham the other to Sittingbourne

Yes, every 10 minutes when I first lived there, though it soon went to every 15 minutes. Faversham to Maidstone seems much more useful than trying to duplicate the rail service. The only other place that used to get a decent bus service from Sittingbourne was Sheerness, again duplicating the railway, rather than a direct service to the eastern parts of Sheppey, not that I'm suggesting that would have worked better. Sheppey is, like Canvey, a rather insular place

 

[Antman]

Yes, every 10 minutes when I first lived there, though it soon went to every 15 minutes. Faversham to Maidstone seems much more useful than trying to duplicate the rail service. The only other place that used to get a decent bus service from Sittingbourne was Sheerness, again duplicating the railway, rather than a direct service to the eastern parts of Sheppey, not that I'm suggesting that would have worked better. Sheppey is, like Canvey, a rather insular place

Yes there are a lot of similarities between Canvey and Sheppey

The bus route from Sheerness to Sittingbourne is quite circuitous. There is no evening service at all, nor too Maidstone, yet the 101 service between Maidstone and Medway Towns gets a half hourly evening service.

 

[ChrisPJ]

Ipswich is an interesting one, varied fleet, probably more secondhand acquisitions than new in recent years, prolonged rebranding, aborted sale to big group. Yet still holding out against a bigger competitor. Could yet go the same way as Plymouth?

 

[kevjs]

NCT don't seem to affected much yet. Trentbarton are lowering the frequency of the indigo from 9bph to 6bph between Long Eaton and Nottingham;NCT still have 8bph Chilwell to Nottingham, Yourbus 6bph and the tram has 6-8tph.

NCT have even part-taken over a TrentBarton route that was closed after the tram launched. The (N)48(A) would have significant overlap with NET too, but seems as rammed as ever (unlike the trams heading towards Clifton)

As a point of comparison,

NCT Fare's
Single Trip £2.00 (or £1.70 on a Robin Hood card)
Day Ticket £3.50 (or £3.15 with a Robin Hood card)
Weekly Ticket £14.00 (£17.95 including the out of city routes to Calverton/Loughbourgh/Southwall)
Monthly £45 (£65 including the out of city routes to Calverton/Loughbourgh/Southwall)

(Robin Hood being Nottingham's oyster - £4 a day cap on multiple operators - £3.50 for two different journeys on different operators)

 

[WatcherZero]

Of interest to many on the municipal watch I'm sure is the transport select committees review of the Bus Bill currently going before parliament. After hearing evidence they have made two decisions which may well be seen in the bill through amendments.

Firstly that bus operators should not be entitled to compensation in areas where Bus Franchising is brought in as their operations are not being taken away from them and they are perfectly free to bid for the new franchises.

Second that councils should be allowed to create new municipal bus companies in areas where there is a lack of bus competition/services however they will not be allowed to compete commercially with existing services.

 

[randyrippley]

one of the great lost opportunities...........I've always wondered what would have happened if the Lancashire Municipal councils had got together and amalgamated their operations. Barrow, Lancaster, Preston, Blackpool, Fylde, Blackburn, Hyndburn, Rossendale (and did Burnley have a fleet?)
If operated as a coherent whole they could have seen off the predations by Stagecoach. Of course that would have required giving the town councillors brain transplants to achieve

 

[Baxenden Bank]

one of the great lost opportunities...........I've always wondered what would have happened if the Lancashire Municipal councils had got together and amalgamated their operations. Barrow, Lancaster, Preston, Blackpool, Fylde, Blackburn, Hyndburn, Rossendale (and did Burnley have a fleet?)
If operated as a coherent whole they could have seen off the predations by Stagecoach. Of course that would have required giving the town councillors brain transplants to achieve

Indeed, Burnley did have a fleet. Specifically Burnley and Pendle (a merger of the two in times past), sold to Stagecoach (Pendle wanted out, Burnley didn't but couldn't afford to buy out Pendle) who eventually gave up and sold it on to what is now Transdev. I have a copy of an article with a picture of a news placard 'Burnley bus men burn uniforms' at the Stagecoach sell on.

It was said at the time of deregulation / privatisation that Ribble (the NBC company) needed to absorb the municipal operators as that was where the money was. None of the municipals came onto the market (at that time). Ribble mainly served the rural / inter-urban market through most of Lancashire having lost it's substantial operations in Greater Manchester and Merseyside.

Councils agreeing to operate something jointly, hock: I don't think so, not voluntarily, it would dilute the power base of councillors.

The ideal solution would have been for the municipals to form a single, publicly owned company, and for that company to buy Ribble rather than the (short lived) management buyout which fell into the hands of Stagecoach, the bus bandits at the time. But I don't think that sort of behaviour was in the minds of those drafting the legislation at the time.

 

[Busaholic]

Councils agreeing to operate something jointly, hock: I don't think so, not voluntarily, it would dilute the power base of councillors.
.

Lancashire, Yorkshire, South Wales..... there were dozens of routes jointly operated by the municipals through to the late 1960s. I believe the Newport to Cardiff route is still jointly operated by their respective boroughs, as it has been for decades. With the arm's length arrangements now pertaining, councillors take a back seat anyway. Mayors, of course, are another matter, for those areas unfortunate enough to be governed by this undemocratic system.