Underpaid a penalty fare and deliberately being awkward

[maybedodgy]

Very recently a friend travelled between a railway station and another railway station, about a number of mins journey, with a railcard ticket. There are hardly ever ticket inspectors because the trains are typically busy and as both stations have barriers.

But for the first time in a year my friend did meet an inspector, who as sods law would require pointed out my railcard had expired a couple of days previously. My friend was quite frustrated because this was a genuine mistake. My friend pleaded leniency but he was having none of it, he took down my details and said I had to pay a £20 penalty fare.

However because My friend is a very, very petty man they decided to waste the inspectors time for the remaining few minutes of the journey. My friend started searching every pocket and my bags for their wallet. They knew exactly where it was and that it didn't have £20 in it - was planning on paying by card, eventually. A couple of minutes of theatrical huffing and rifling through belongings the mission is accomplished as he's quite agitated, wanted to check the other 2/3s of the train before we arrived at the station. As the final act my friend opened my wallet and made apologetic noises - "oh, sorry, this is all the cash I have", whilst showing him that alas their wallet only contained euros.

But then without looking he grabbed a €20 note out of my friend's hand, stuffed it into his waist belt thing, and gave my friend the penalty fare ticket. My friend said nothing, and he walked away.

So, should my friend expect to get in trouble? I'm sure if the money is checked soon he might put 2 and 2 together, and they have my friend's name and address... But on the other hand my friend has got a receipt that says they paid and it's not like they deliberately deceived anyone, just chose not to correct a mistake...


---

edit: Good points raised, thank you all. Will relay all this info to my friend.

 

[bb21]

Why not pay the remainder of the balance then in that case? You clearly know you were in the wrong but would rather be awkward than face up to the consequences?

They may and they may not. They may even decide to refund your €20 considering your attitude (which always shows even if you pretend that it weren't the case) and proceed with considering your case for prosecution. No one will know for sure until you receive a letter.

I also don't think the underpayment is an accident so I have amended the title to be more appropriate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

20 *Euro*? Not aware of LM accepting Euros.

What does the PF ticket say you have paid?

 

[hounddog]

I also don't think the underpayment is an accident so I have amended the title to be more appropriate.

Am I the only one who thinks this is inappropriate behaviour from a moderator? It's only your opinion after all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The OP seems to make it clear in his post.

 

[Clip]

They make it very clear in their OP that they were being a difficult bugger because they have been caught out trying to evade paying the correct fare.

 

[Minilad]

Sounds like a new take on the old staple. The Ticket Dance.

 

[maybedodgy]

20 *Euro*? Not aware of LM accepting Euros.

What does the PF ticket say you have paid?

£20. It's not like they even look alike, my friend was caught off-guard for a second when he snatched it.

Why not pay the remainder of the balance then in that case? You clearly know you were in the wrong but would rather be awkward than face up to the consequences?

They may and they may not. They may even decide to refund your €20 considering your attitude (which always shows even if you pretend that it weren't the case) and proceed with considering your case for prosecution. No one will know for sure until you receive a letter.

Don't see why my friend has to be so quick to correct or cover for their mistake; they weren't very forgiving when my friend made a mistake by not checking their railcard's validity. Thankyou for your input though, will keep my fingers crossed and hope for no letters.

I also don't think the underpayment is an accident so I have amended the title to be more appropriate.

If I was trying to do it deliberately I'd have tried for a better discount than 20 euros. 20 swedish kroner or thai baht maybe

 

[Tetchytyke]

Ah, the good old ticket dance.

If they feel so inclined they can cancel the Penalty Fare and decide to prosecute you instead, especially if they think you were deliberately trying to evade the fare (and the ticket dance implies you were). And that would be such a shame.

 

[najaB]

Am I the only one who thinks this is inappropriate behaviour from a moderator?

Yes.

To the OP - consider yourself lucky if you don't get reported for prosecution.

 

[dakta]

I think in the moderators defence, the title does sort of aid the 'sticking to the core facts' idea.

There's no such thing as wasting a member of staffs time whilstever he's getting paid for said time and moneys coming out of your pocket, thats my 2 cents (see what I did there!?) on the situation, you might stop him from doing something else but he's not going to lose any sleep over it, that's working life.

What I'm wondering now is whether there will be (if there can be) any comeback from the underpayment, but I suppose that deserves another thread.

 

[DaleCooper]

There's no such thing as wasting a member of staffs time whilstever he's getting paid for said time and moneys coming out of your pocket, thats my 2 cents (see what I did there!?) on the situation, you might stop him from doing something else but he's not going to lose any sleep over it, that's working life.

He might have caught a few fare dodgers in that time so there is such a thing as wasting a member of staff's time.

I presume the OP is the sort of person who wouldn't tell a shop assistant that they'd given them too much change, well they can look forward to a few months wondering what the postman will bring and I hope Karma will prevail.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What I'm wondering now is whether there will be (if there can be) any comeback from the underpayment, but I suppose that deserves another thread.

There can indeed be - the Penalty Fare can be refunded and a prosecution pursued instead. I expect it will be picked up as the inspector will have been tripped up when he tried to cash up and found there was a EUR 20 note in there, and no doubt had to explain, whether over tea and biscuits or not.

My take would be that the OP has completely failed any possible "attitude test" (the correct thing to do would be to apologise for the Railcard being out of date in the first instance) and so a Byelaw prosecution would seem a reasonable action to take, with no out of court settlement to be offered.

 

[dakta]

Thanks Neil

Whilst it doesn't form part of the OP's question (essentially which was 'can this come back to haunt me?' - it appears that yes it can!) the snatching of the money element also intrigues me as it just does not ring in quite a number of ways.

 

[Aldaniti]

Am I the only one who thinks this is inappropriate behaviour from a moderator? It's only your opinion after all.

Nope. I think it's quite refreshing and a nice change from the usual tea and sympathy handed out to the here today, gone tomorrow ticket irregularity brigade.

 

[Hannes]

So, should I expect to get in trouble? I'm sure if the money is checked soon he might put 2 and 2 together, and they have my name and address... But on the other hand I've got a receipt that says I paid and it's not like I deliberately deceived anyone, I just chose not to correct a mistake...

Even if you had paid the £20 properly, you can still be prosecuted. https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/c.../public-transport/trains/train-penalty-fares/

It's possible to be issued with a penalty fare and then be prosecuted for travelling with intent to avoid paying the fare. However, if you're found guilty, the penalty fare should be refunded.

 

[najaB]

... the snatching of the money element also intrigues me as it just does not ring in quite a number of ways.

I agree. I can't see why someone would grab a €20 note thinking that it was a £20 note, it's not like they are particularly similar:

 

[maybedodgy]

Before you all get the pitchforks out, to be clear I was nothing but calm, polite, apologetic and smiles to the inspector throughout. On the contrary, it was the inspector who was rather brusque. Apart from acting a bit of a simpleton I did nothing out of order.

Which is probably why he got so cross

I presume the OP is the sort of person who wouldn't tell a shop assistant that they'd given them too much change, well they can look forward to a few months wondering what the postman will bring and I hope Karma will prevail.

OP is a brave if slightly passive-aggressive crusader against oppressive and rude jobsworths in the transport industry.

 

[maybedodgy]

I agree. I can't see why someone would grab a €20 note thinking that it was a £20 note, it's not like they are particularly similar:

Also agreed!

In a rush they've both got a number 20 on them, both notes, both got some blue and purple if you squint a bit... Evidently didn't have his weetabix that morning. Maybe I've got some subconscious Derren Brown-like abilities or Jedi mind tricks going on.

 

[Merseysider]

Am I the only one who thinks this is inappropriate behaviour from a moderator? It's only your opinion after all.

Yep, you're the only one

As €20 is worth about £15, the penalty fare remains partly unpaid. I'm not sure if LM penalty fares work in the same way as Merseyrail ones do, but ME ones carry a requirement to pay on the spot only the full fare due, as a minimum, with approximately a month to pay the rest off. Are LM ones similar?

 

[sheff1]

If the inspector issued more than one PF for cash on the shift I don't see how they could prove which passenger had tendered the Euro note. Hence anyone who received a letter stating they had underpaid could just deny it and produce their receipt for £20. The OP has, of course, admitted it here so if they could be identified through their forum account that would presumably be enough to prove the matter.

 

[maybedodgy]

The OP has, of course, admitted it here so if they could be identified through their forum account that would presumably be enough to prove the matter.

For simplicity of narration I may have overstated my personal involvement, I'll correct the OP if you're going to bring the lawyers in. Besides, you can't trust what you read on here, mods have already admitted to altering my messages before they are approved

Thanks again everyone for their help, this can be closed now!

 

[Haywain]

Thr RPI might have thought he was taking a Scottish £20 note, and didn't realise at the time. He may have had to bear the loss as a result, but in all likelihood only the loss of the difference after exchange rates.

 

[najaB]

Thr RPI might have thought he was taking a Scottish £20 note, and didn't realise at the time. He may have had to bear the loss as a result, but in all likelihood only the loss of the difference after exchange rates.

While that's possible, no current Scottish £20 is such a brilliant shade of blue (I had to look it up as it's rare they grace my wallet!). If the RPI was familiar enough with Scottish notes as to take it without looking at it, I would've thought they would know the colours.

 

[Chew Chew]

Thr RPI might have thought he was taking a Scottish £20 note.

Scottish £20 notes are purple, €20 notes are blue.

 

[Haywain]

Scottish £20 notes are purple, €20 notes are blue.

Colour blind? It was just a thought.

 

[bb21]

Before you all get the pitchforks out, to be clear I was nothing but calm, polite, apologetic and smiles to the inspector throughout. On the contrary, it was the inspector who was rather brusque. Apart from acting a bit of a simpleton I did nothing out of order.

Which is probably why he got so cross


OP is a brave if slightly passive-aggressive crusader against oppressive and rude jobsworths in the transport industry.

I struggle to understand why you are taking this approach on this occasion. You have already paid the majority of your Penalty Fare which, regardless of your opinion on it, was correctly issued. Is it really worth it for the sake of about £6 to have the worry of possible prosecution hanging over your head for the next 6-8 months?

Moral crusades have their places, just not when there are real prospects of ending up a lot worse financially.

Pay the remainder of your Penalty Fare is the only advice I can realistically offer you given your circumstances.

 

[najaB]

Also agreed!

In case you didn't get the gist of my message: I don't believe you.

 

[DaleCooper]

Before you all get the pitchforks out, to be clear I was nothing but calm, polite, apologetic and smiles to the inspector throughout. On the contrary, it was the inspector who was rather brusque. Apart from acting a bit of a simpleton I did nothing out of order.

Which is probably why he got so cross

If you honestly believe you did nothing out of order then I seriously question your judgment, you deliberately delayed the inspector by pretending to be unable to find your money then you failed to point out his mistake an omission which was to your pecuniary advantage. Your actions on the day and your posts on this forum show you to be an inherently dishonest person

OP is a brave if slightly passive-aggressive crusader against oppressive and rude jobsworths in the transport industry.

The OP has a rather grand but completely unrealistic opinion of himself, it would be more accurate to describe the OP as an immoral opportunist who wants to benefit at the expense of other rail users. The inspector wasn't a jobsworth, he was doing his very worthwhile job.

 

[6Gman]

Very recently a friend travelled between a railway station and another railway station, about a number of mins journey, with a railcard ticket. There are hardly ever ticket inspectors because the trains are typically busy and as both stations have barriers.

But for the first time in a year my friend did meet an inspector, who as sods law would require pointed out my railcard had expired a couple of days previously. My friend was quite frustrated because this was a genuine mistake. My friend pleaded leniency but he was having none of it, he took down my details and said I had to pay a £20 penalty fare.

Why was your 'friend' carrying your railcard?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you honestly believe you did nothing out of order then I seriously question your judgment, you deliberately delayed the inspector by pretending to be unable to find your money then you failed to point out his mistake an omission which was to your pecuniary advantage. Your actions on the day and your posts on this forum show you to be an inherently dishonest person



The OP has a rather grand but completely unrealistic opinion of himself, it would be more accurate to describe the OP as an immoral opportunist who wants to benefit at the expense of other rail users. The inspector wasn't a jobsworth, he was doing his very worthwhile job.

We need a like button on here!

Some of us tend to pay our fares. We don't like scrotes who want to use the trains, but would rather the rest of us paid for them. We don't like scrotes who want to delay RPIs who are trying to catch said scrotes.