Stagecoach tender for new rolling stock for franchise bids

[ScotGG]

The frequency of SE services to Charing Cross and Cannon Street has been reduced during the London Bridge works.

The frequency after completion will be 1 less tph at Charing Cross (29 to 28tph) and 3 tph less at Cannon Street (25 to 22tph). However there are an extra 4tph less running to Charing Cross at the moment till all of P6-9 are available for stopping services at London Bridge.

So there will be frequency increase from the service level today.

There will also be extra TL (SE services) and SE (to terminating platforms) at Blackfriars (not via London Bridge) which will compensate for the loss of the other CHX/CST services.

The 1tph reduction into Charing Cross is possibly due to running more 12 car services as they occupy junctions for longer - the capacity in terms of Cars Per Hour to CHX may actually increase. The 3tph loss to Cannon Street is due to ECS moves via the curve and Blackfriars no longer being possible.
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The tender wording states alternative solutions allowed.

Yep I know there's an increase from today's reduced service whilst rebuilding London Bridge is ongoing (2015 to 2018) but I was referring to levels before 2015. Frequencies in 2018 offer a cut from levels in 2014 despite rising passenger numbers and necessitates 12 car trains.

How many trains will go to Blackfriars and I presume none of the metro lines which are seeing very large growth will go to Blackfriairs?

The service on Thameslink through the core to SE land appears very minimal when looking at post 2018 planning. Many ideas such as Dartford trains have long since gone.

The very large rises shown today in station usage at many SE stations also show the need for 240m trains on metro lines, along with the frequency cuts to Charing Cross and Cannon Street, compared to pre-work levels.

 

[Mikey C]

Yep I know there's an increase from today's reduced service (2015 to 2018) whilst rebuilding London Bridge is ongoing but I was referring to levels before 2015. Frequencies in 2018 offer a cut from levels in 2014 despite rising passenger numbers and necessitates 12 car trains.

How many trains will go to Blackfriars and I presume none of the metro lines which are seeing very large growth will go to Blackfriairs?

The service on Thameslink through the core to SE land appears very minimal when looking at post 2018 planning. Many ideas such as Dartford trains have long since gone.

The very large rises shown today in station usage at many SE stations also show the need for 240m trains on metro lines, along with the frequency cuts to Charing Cross and Cannon Street, compared to pre-work levels.

Yes, none of the Dartford line trains go to Blackfriars.

The only development which will affect the area is Crossrail, which will attract some people in the north of the region (Woolwich, Abbey Wood etc) and where some people from Dartford may choose to change to it at Abbey Wood, especially if they work in Canary Wharf.

 

[hwl]

Yep I know there's an increase from today's reduced service (2015 to 2018) whilst rebuilding London Bridge is ongoing but I was referring to levels before 2015. Frequencies in 2018 offer a cut from levels in 2014 despite rising passenger numbers and necessitates 12 car trains.

How many trains will go to Blackfriars and I presume none of the metro lines which are seeing very large growth will go to Blackfriairs?

The service on Thameslink through the core to SE land appears very minimal when looking at post 2018 planning. Many ideas such as Dartford trains have long since gone.

The very large rises shown today in station usage at many SE stations also show the need for 240m trains on metro lines, along with the frequency cuts to Charing Cross and Cannon Street, compared to pre-work levels.

With more power supply upgrades to be completed soon, some additional rolling stock (new or cascaded), service lengthening is the route to increased capacity on SE services rather than frequency.
Bakerloo extension (and taking over Hayes paths) and ATO into Cannon Street are the ways to increase paths/ frequencies in the longer term.
Agree new 10car is a complete waste given the quantity of 10 car stock that SE will have for good while to come (no 12 car 465+465+466+466 at Charing Cross so in service 38x 10 cars with 466s, 16x 10 car376s (assuming 90% availability of units). Anything new needs to be formable into 12car units and have SDO. 10 car using existing stock would still better than 8 car given the number of 8 car services still around If some new stock were to come in.

 

[Class 466]

Another thing to also consider is that only the 465s will be receiving the modifications to allow them to run past 2020, 466s will not - unless of course the next franchise holder invests in it.

 

[hwl]

Another thing to also consider is that only the 465s will be receiving the modifications to allow them to run past 2020, 466s will not - unless of course the next franchise holder invests in it.

Very interesting and makes a lot of sense. (Also plenty of spare parts to keep 365s and 465s going)

 

[Mikey C]

Very interesting and makes a lot of sense. (Also plenty of spare parts to keep 365s and 465s going)

The 466s will only be 26 years old by 2020, surely too early to bin them or use them for spare parts?

 

[ScotGG]

It does seem very soon. They could still run the branches. Could they be cascaded along with some 465s to 3rd rail areas where 10 car is the max - Southern & SW Trains lines?

 

[hwl]

It does seem very soon. They could still run the branches. Could they be cascaded along with some 465s to 3rd rail areas where 10 car is the max - Southern & SW Trains lines?

Agreed some could still be useful on branches but how many of the 43 units?

465 and 466s are slightly wider than most EMUs so there would be lots of clearance issues (Vic South Central side for starters) but more importantly:

All Southern metro and SWT Windsor Line services require SDO for 10 car operation. SE is very lucky with only Woolwich Dockyard as problem station. SWT probably don't want to add more different types of stock to their rolling stock Zoo.

The 466s also have the original GEC GTO control, how many spare components are left?

465s/466s can only couple with 319s.

466 have a toilet in a 2 car unit - rip out or install a very large disabled one?

Convert them into 4 car units (also reduce length by removing cabs so 2m shorter overall than 2x 2 car so fewer issues at CHX?)


Hence a bit of clarity (i.e. how much capacity growth is the next franchise going to cater for and how) before any investment decisions are made on the 466s.

The 466s will have paid for themselves already.

 

[The Ham]

Given that Crossrail 2 is taking over less routes than original thought then there could be an option to replace the units required for non Crossrail services. Then use the existing fleet for those lines, possiblely using more modern trains but still old enough that they need replacing in 2030. In doing so most metro services get new trains, those that don't get longer trains and Stagecoach still saddle Crossrail 2 with the cost of the new trains.

Remaining that Stagecoach could just be using the costs of new trains to get a better deal on their existing fleet.

 

[D365]

465s/466s can only couple with 319s.

Not in service though, so what's your point? Compatibility was only specified for recovery purposes when running into Blackfriars/City Thameslink.

 

[Class 466]

Agreed some could still be useful on branches but how many of the 43 units?

465 and 466s are slightly wider than most EMUs so there would be lots of clearance issues (Vic South Central side for starters) but more importantly:

All Southern metro and SWT Windsor Line services require SDO for 10 car operation. SE is very lucky with only Woolwich Dockyard as problem station. SWT probably don't want to add more different types of stock to their rolling stock Zoo.

The 466s also have the original GEC GTO control, how many spare components are left?

465s/466s can only couple with 319s.

466 have a toilet in a 2 car unit - rip out or install a very large disabled one?

Convert them into 4 car units (also reduce length by removing cabs so 2m shorter overall than 2x 2 car so fewer issues at CHX?)


Hence a bit of clarity (i.e. how much capacity growth is the next franchise going to cater for and how) before any investment decisions are made on the 466s.

The 466s will have paid for themselves already.

Three units are used on Branches in the SX/Saturdays (2 Sheerness, 1 Bromley North) with just the one on the Sheerness Branch on a Sunday.

466s are no longer cleared to operate on their own on the Medway Valley and cannot run in paired (2+2) formation beyond Maidstone West due to the short platform at Beltring. 375/3s are currently used down there, and i'd expect that to continue UFN. Of course if nothing else is available due to a failure a 466 is used.

I doubt chopping them up to make 4 cars is a viable option really.

Maybe someone should start a rolling thread about using them on the Lymington branch

The ultimate aim is for a 12 car railway to cope with the ever increasing demand.

By 2017 465/9s & 466s should be taken off of the Charing X/Cannon Street - Tunbridge Wells services, replaced by 377s.

Also don't forget that most of the stations from Victoria to Orpington Via Herne Hill/Catford are restricted to 8 coaches. (2+2+2+2 anyone? )

 

[The Ham]

Maybe someone should start a rolling thread about using them on the Lymington branch

The Lymington branch must have the most different rolling stock types in use for any given line by now if just half the suggestions on here have come into being.

 

[hwl]

Not in service though, so what's your point? Compatibility was only specified for recovery purposes when running into Blackfriars/City Thameslink.

It would cause recovery nightmares on Southern or SWT routes by adding another incompatible variant.

The 458/5s have new couplers on conversion so they are compatible with 450s etc to reduce recovery issues, I can't see SWT want to make the situation worse again.
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Also don't forget that most of the stations from Victoria to Orpington Via Herne Hill/Catford are restricted to 8 coaches. (2+2+2+2 anyone? )

2+2+2+2 is almost 4m longer than 4+4, do all the platforms have that extra length so feel very close to the limit with 4+4?
Edit to Add:

West Dulwich P2 usable length is only a few cm longer than a 2+2+2+2 combination... precision driving required

 

[Peter Sarf]

The Lymington branch must have the most different rolling stock types in use for any given line by now if just half the suggestions on here have come into being.

Has anyone suggested 442s for this 3rd rail route ?. Or are only diesels favoured ?.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

The Lymington branch must have the most different rolling stock types in use for any given line by now if just half the suggestions on here have come into being.

They'd probably be too long for the Lymington branch anway, I think that possibly 450s are as long as the branch can handle