Northern franchise awarded to Arriva.

[thenorthern]

Has there been any announcements on the parliamentary stops at Northern Rail have quite a few? Its strange to think in 3 days Allens West station has got more passengers than the next stop (Teesside Airport) has received over the entire Northern Rail franchise.

 

[WestRiding]

Pity Pontefract Baghill cannot benefit from some sort of proper service. It is a large town with a uninspiring service from the other two stations. Maybe a Sheffield to York service as now, but every 2 hours perhaps.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Well, the map is clearly wrong showing the Windermere service running via Atherton, because the text says it will go electric as soon as the wires are up. The Train Service Requirement from Dec 2017 is for 4tph to stop at both Atherton and Walkden, so none of those are likely to be a Northern Connect fast service - more likely the 4th one will be a Wallgate terminator. And I thought the Atherton line re-signalling was only for 4tph? So I suspect both the Windermere and Barrow services will run via the Chat Moss line.

Tick. No room or point via Atherton/Crow Nest with 6tph stoppers already.

 

[Greybeard33]

The Barrow -MIA service could run via Bolton once Westhoughton is wired ?

Why would Westhoughton wiring affect the routing of a diesel service? The Stakeholoder Briefing Document issued with the ITT clarified DfT's thinking on Wigan-Manchester services:

Manchester-Scotland (via Wigan/Bolton): We expect that once the
Manchester-Bolton-Chorley-Preston route is electrified, the TPE
Manchester-Scotland services that have been running via Wigan will go
back to running via Bolton, as they did previously. Although this would
mean that services between Wigan and Manchester will decrease from six
trains per hour to five trains per hour after December 2017, we will be
asking for Northern to provide an additional Wigan-Manchester service,
restoring the sixth train. We are leaving flexibility for Northern bidders to
decide whether to route their trains to Barrow and Windermere via Bolton,
as is currently the case, or via Wigan; if a route via Wigan was selected,
there could then be a seventh service between Wigan and Manchester.

From the interactive map, it is now clear that Arriva has chosen the option of running the Barrow and Windermere services via Wigan not Chorley/Bolton:

Passengers to/from Wigan will benefit from 7 trains per hour to/from central Manchester for much of the day, consisting of:

• 4 trains per hour via Atherton (up from 2 off-peak and 3-4 in the peak)
• 2 trains per hour via Bolton (to be served by electric trains once the route is electrified)
• 1 fast Northern Connect service train per hour to/from Manchester Oxford Road, Piccadilly and the Airport (replacing the TransPennine Express service which currently operates on this route, but which will revert to operating via Bolton from December 2017)

So the Barrow and Windermere Northern Connect services will run non-stop between Wigan North Western and Oxford Road, forming the seventh service between Wigan and Manchester and taking over the path on the Chat Moss line currently used by the TPE Scottish services.

 

[darloscott]

Pity Pontefract Baghill cannot benefit from some sort of proper service. It is a large town with a uninspiring service from the other two stations. Maybe a Sheffield to York service as now, but every 2 hours perhaps.

Is there any demand there?
I know this may not be representative of loadings across the day but I was in York on Tuesday, and the 1106 to Sheffield left with 2 passengers. Now this was probably too early for the peak loading, given that had just brought the morning service in I guess majority of people will arrive on that one, and go back later in the day. I wonder if an am/pm peak service would offer any growth on this route? There's always the fact that the units could be more profitably used elsewhere, much like at present.

 

[gerryuk]

[*]I really don’t get the fascination with Nottingham to Carlisle (and then up the GSW to Glasgow... always up the GSW... :roll. It seems to crop up in these discussions pretty regularly. Never Derby to Carlisle, or Hull to Carlisle or even Bradford to Carlisle. Is there some amazing demand to get from Nottingham to Carlisle? Or is this just the usual “BR did it a generation ago, and it looks good on a map” approach?

A Nottingham to Glasgow service via Carlisle would call at Sheffield and Leeds two of the largest populated cities in the country. Could be a nice little earner for a TOC, if such a service was ever introduced. I am not sure a service to Hull would make money?

 

[thenorthern]

A Nottingham to Glasgow service via Carlisle would call at Sheffield and Leeds two of the largest populated cities in the country. Could be a nice little earner for a TOC, if such a service was ever introduced. I am not sure a service to Hull would make money?

There is already a 2 hourly direct service to Glasgow from Leeds and Sheffield and Derby which is near Nottingham.

 

[gerryuk]

There is already a 2 hourly direct service to Glasgow from Leeds and Sheffield and Derby which is near Nottingham.

Just out of interest would Sheffield/Leeds to Glasgow be quicker via Carlisle than Newcastle?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What happens to depots and their staff when TOCs change? Are they ever affected by these changes?

 

[craigybagel]

What happens to depots and their staff when TOCs change? Are they ever affected by these changes?

They get new uniforms, and their travel perks on other companies may change (Northern staff in particular will be doing well if they get the same perks enjoyed by current Arriva group staff).

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

They get new uniforms, and their travel perks on other companies may change (Northern staff in particular will be doing well if they get the same perks enjoyed by current Arriva group staff).

To who do they turn in their old uniforms?

 

[Senex]

Just out of interest would Sheffield/Leeds to Glasgow be quicker via Carlisle than Newcastle?

Rather depends on speed and stopping-pattern on the S&C and which route is used north of Carlisle.

 

[RoundNewcastle]

Is there any demand there?
I know this may not be representative of loadings across the day but I was in York on Tuesday, and the 1106 to Sheffield left with 2 passengers. Now this was probably too early for the peak loading, given that had just brought the morning service in I guess majority of people will arrive on that one, and go back later in the day. I wonder if an am/pm peak service would offer any growth on this route? There's always the fact that the units could be more profitably used elsewhere, much like at present.

There isn't enough demand to warrant a 2 hourly service.
Though last time I ridden the service there was a handful of shoppers from Meadowhall that stayed on till Church Fenton and Sherburn before arriving at York with around 3 people left including my Nana
Not sure about peak times ( if there is a service then ) to answer the rest.

 

[darloscott]

I am intrigued to see how they sort this Middlesbrough to Carlisle service, if it runs via Ferryhill then I reckon it could be done in around 2 hours 25 end to end - so 4 hour 50 for a return trip with no layover. Doing this with 5 units would be very risky in terms of reliability, but it would seem a waste to give them half hour turn around at each end and utilise a 6th unit (158s). I wonder if they will send these to Nunthorpe which would use up another 35 mins or so at the Middlesbrough end, giving 25 minutes layover each hour to be split between the two termini.

This would allow them to use just 6 units on a Middlesbrough - Hartlepool - Newcastle - Carlisle stopper with around 30 mins layover, instead of running to Nunthorpe and requiring a 7th unit.

 

[Mintona]

To who do they turn in their old uniforms?

 

[thenorthern]

Just out of interest would Sheffield/Leeds to Glasgow be quicker via Carlisle than Newcastle?

Currently from Leeds its is almost exactly the same time to get to Glasgow going via Newcastle (Direct) or via Carnforth or Settle (Indirect) although the latter 2 include 125 mph capable stock on the WCML which a direct Nottingham to Glasgow via Settle train wouldn't have.

 

[pennine]

I am intrigued to see how they sort this Middlesbrough to Carlisle service, if it runs via Ferryhill then I reckon it could be done in around 2 hours 25 end to end - so 4 hour 50 for a return trip with no layover. Doing this with 5 units would be very risky in terms of reliability, but it would seem a waste to give them half hour turn around at each end and utilise a 6th unit (158s). I wonder if they will send these to Nunthorpe which would use up another 35 mins or so at the Middlesbrough end, giving 25 minutes layover each hour to be split between the two termini.

This would allow them to use just 6 units on a Middlesbrough - Hartlepool - Newcastle - Carlisle stopper with around 30 mins layover, instead of running to Nunthorpe and requiring a 7th unit.

I was under the impression that only around 10 services a day were to be Northern Connect from Newcastle to Carlisle. Unless the above has taken that into account?

 

[dewsnapsliding]

Also presumably the new Leeds to Halifax service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Has anyone noticed that the map covering Manchester to Sheffield services connects both Victoria and Piccadilly to Sheffield? What state is the line east of Manchester in?

I suppose that would provide a use for the east facing bays at Victoria, unless they route Blackburn/Wigan services that way.

Currently one service per week (Liverpool Newcastle from memory) early Sunday that uses Phillips Park to Ashburys (and back to Stalybridge from Guide Bridge)?

 

[darloscott]

I was under the impression that only around 10 services a day were to be Northern Connect from Newcastle to Carlisle. Unless the above has taken that into account?

I'd based it on the fact that the two Connect services (Mbro-Newc express & Newc-Carlisle express) were to be linked up, given they both have a figure of 10 per day. This would account for an hourly service 0730-1730 or thereabouts.

Having looked at it again though, if you save circa 20 mins off a single trip between Middlesbrough & Newcastle by running express via the ECML, this would put it only 10 mins behind the stopper at Newcastle heading to Carlisle. This leads me to think that either the express or the stoppers will not be linked across Newcastle, in order to keep the 30 minute frequency on both services.

Either that or the "express" Middlesbrough to Newcastle will in fact be a semi-fast up the coast?

The stopper could in theory interwork with at Metrocentre with a shuttle to Newcastle before working onwards to Carlisle, and the same in reverse. This of course would leave spare time in the Morpeth-Metrocentre diagrams...
An interesting puzzle

 

[Stats]

I'd based it on the fact that the two Connect services (Mbro-Newc express & Newc-Carlisle express) were to be linked up, given they both have a figure of 10 per day.

Or you could base it on ARN's website where they say by 2019 a new fast Northern Connect service across Newcastle will link Carlisle and Hexham with Stockton and Middlesbrough.

 

[455driver]

To who do they turn in their old uniforms?

It would probably take 6 months to issue the new uniforms so the old ones will probably just be fit for the bin.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

It would probably take 6 months to issue the new uniforms so the old ones will probably just be fit for the bin.

I was just curious to know if they were told they could just keep them...

 

[30907]

• However, what’s the difference between a “fast” service from York to Scarborough and a “slow” service? There’s not enough intermediate stations to warrant any distinction. I’m not knocking the idea of a second service per hour to Scarborough, but why under a separate TOC?

Haxby and Strensall (if either or both ever happen) and Seamer (depending on how the Filey connection works)?

 

[Bevan Price]

There isn't enough demand to warrant a 2 hourly service.
Though last time I ridden the service there was a handful of shoppers from Meadowhall that stayed on till Church Fenton and Sherburn before arriving at York with around 3 people left including my Nana
Not sure about peak times ( if there is a service then ) to answer the rest.

It is a sort of chicken / egg situation. Is there low demand because the service is so lousy (and has been for many years) - or would a decent service attract a lot more passengers ?

Pontefract Baghill once had stops on some long distance express services. Might it be sensible if Baghill had some stops on Cross Country services ? Not hourly, but maybe every 2-3 hours ?

 

[onlinespotting]

Northern Spirit was the brand used by MTL, the holders of the North East franchise before Arriva. North East in this case included the whole of Yorkshire, being the privatised Regional Railways North East.
When Arriva took over the franchise it took several years before all the Northern Spirit liveried rolling stock was repainted to Arriva livery, but they didn't use Northern Spirit as a brand name in advertising etc.

My mistake re: Northern Spirit/ATN but the remainder regarding the Scarborough services was still the case
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Has there been any announcements on the parliamentary stops at Northern Rail have quite a few? Its strange to think in 3 days Allens West station has got more passengers than the next stop (Teesside Airport) has received over the entire Northern Rail franchise.

I asked this on a previous post; apparently they're all remaining except one (which I can't remember without scrolling back through the thread), but this is to be covered by TPE. Can anybody confirm or advise about this?

 

[pennine]

I'd based it on the fact that the two Connect services (Mbro-Newc express & Newc-Carlisle express) were to be linked up, given they both have a figure of 10 per day. This would account for an hourly service 0730-1730 or thereabouts.

Having looked at it again though, if you save circa 20 mins off a single trip between Middlesbrough & Newcastle by running express via the ECML, this would put it only 10 mins behind the stopper at Newcastle heading to Carlisle. This leads me to think that either the express or the stoppers will not be linked across Newcastle, in order to keep the 30 minute frequency on both services.

Either that or the "express" Middlesbrough to Newcastle will in fact be a semi-fast up the coast?

The stopper could in theory interwork with at Metrocentre with a shuttle to Newcastle before working onwards to Carlisle, and the same in reverse. This of course would leave spare time in the Morpeth-Metrocentre diagrams...
An interesting puzzle

It could. Or...

Or you could base it on ARN's website where they say by 2019 a new fast Northern Connect service acrossNewcastle will link Carlisle and Hexham with Stockton and Middlesbrough.

What rings the alarm bell to me is that Hartlepool is not mentioned. For it to serve Stockton it could go along the Stillington branch...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It is a sort of chicken / egg situation. Is there low demand because the service is so lousy (and has been for many years) - or would a decent service attract a lot more passengers ?

Pontefract Baghill once had stops on some long distance express services. Might it be sensible if Baghill had some stops on Cross Country services ? Not hourly, but maybe every 2-3 hours ?

When did Baghill have these stops? Prior to the Selby diversion I assume... There's some merit in the idea but the problems it could throw up might mean it'd be a phyrric victory: the calls would have to be from the via Doncaster services (diverting away from Leeds is a non-starter) and would they be able to serve both Doncaster and Pontefract? If not, then Doncaster clearly trumps Pontefract. Adding calls to services which are already overcrowded might not be the best laid plan either...

 

[Jonny]

It could. Or...



What rings the alarm bell to me is that Hartlepool is not mentioned. For it to serve Stockton it could go along the Stillington branch...

Possibly, but that would be awkward to path, with the volume of ECML trains it would be in conflict with.

 

[IanXC]

Haxby and Strensall (if either or both ever happen) and Seamer (depending on how the Filey connection works)?

I can't see the Seamer calls being removed from.the TPE services - they are very well used in themselves, before you consider connections off the Coast.

 

[lejog]

Possibly, but that would be awkward to path, with the volume of ECML trains it would be in conflict with.

Not to mention that the interactive maps show only the route via Hartlepool - there are other maps which show more tha one route for services e.g. Chester to Leeds, Sheffield to Manchester.

 

[D6975]

I can't see the Seamer calls being removed from.the TPE services - they are very well used in themselves, before you consider connections off the Coast.

I thought just the opposite. An hourly Northern service in addition to the hourly TPX service means the latter can be non-stop to York. The stops at Seamer, Malton and prospective York suburbs stops, plus the coast connections all being served by Northern.

Not sure what TP would think about losing their share of the revenue though..