First Class with a Standard Fare ticket - Prosecution?

[Bernard01]

Hi everyone,

I'm sure you've seen a lot of these posts. I've searched through the forum a bit and just wanted to get some advice on what I should do in my current situation.

I was in the first class seating area on a busy train when I shouldn't have - and I understand now that I'm not entitled to a seat even if there are seats unused in first class, the trains are unbelievably busy in the mornings, and I thought there wasn't any harm; which I know now is wrong. I talked to the plain clothed warrant officer in a polite manner - he was a pretty reasonable guy, chatted a bit after til my stop.

It's been about a little while now, and I've gotten a letter from the Prosecutions Unit asking if I want to submit anything that may influence their decision.

I don't know what to do. I know many people have been advised to send a letter of apology and offer to pay. But, I'm not sure if I should do that now, or wait to see if they give me a fine. Or, does this letter suggest I won't be fined and the most likely outcome is a criminal record. The officer told me not to worry when receiving this letter, if I remember correctly, but it has me quite concerned.

What would be the best course of action?

 

[Agent_c]

Hi everyone,

I'm sure you've seen a lot of these posts. I've searched through the forum a bit and just wanted to get some advice on what I should do in my current situation.

I was in the first class seating area on a busy train when I shouldn't have - and I understand now that I'm not entitled to a seat even if there are seats unused in first class, the trains are unbelievably busy in the mornings, and I thought there wasn't any harm; which I know now is wrong. I talked to the plain clothed warrant officer in a polite manner - he was a pretty reasonable guy, chatted a bit after til my stop.

It's been about a little while now, and I've gotten a letter from the Prosecutions Unit asking if I want to submit anything that may influence their decision.

I don't know what to do. I know many people have been advised to send a letter of apology and offer to pay. But, I'm not sure if I should do that now, or wait to see if they give me a fine. Or, does this letter suggest I won't be fined and the most likely outcome is a criminal record. The officer told me not to worry when receiving this letter, if I remember correctly, but it has me quite concerned.

What would be the best course of action?

Unless there is some extrodinary mitigating factor, apologise and offer to pay is it. They're pretty much got you dead to rights.

 

[185143]

Makes a change from reading about the loud, aggressive, swearing, bullying racist RPI who was picking on me because of X!

But in all seriousness, all you really can do if apologize and offer to pay it.

 

[mikeg]

I don't know what to do. I know many people have been advised to send a letter of apology and offer to pay. But, I'm not sure if I should do that now, or wait to see if they give me a fine. Or, does this letter suggest I won't be fined and the most likely outcome is a criminal record. The officer told me not to worry when receiving this letter, if I remember correctly, but it has me quite concerned.

What would be the best course of action?

First of all, pedant mode: The only way of getting a fine is to be prosecuted and convicted, anything else would be an out of court settlement, we have seen amounts vary from £20 (unlikely) to North of £500 (equally unlikely). Going to court does not necessarily mean a criminal record, it depends which legislation they choose to prosecute under. Does your letter say anything about this? What is the wording of the thing they are accusing you of?

If it's that you travelled without a valid ticket, or travelled in an area of the train reserved for holders of a certain class of ticket (I forget the exact wording), it looks likely they would be considering a byelaw prosecution. Although you wouldn't have a leg to stand on if defending yourself against this, you wouldn't get a criminal record for pleading/being found guilty.

If however they said something along the lines of 'travelled without previously paying the correct fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof' it looks like they are planning to prosecute under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. This would land you with a substantial fine (slightly larger than a byelaw prosecution) and more crucially a criminal record. Similarly, since you deliberately sat in first class without a first class ticket any attempt to prosecute under this legislation would likely have you found guilty.

Since a day out in court is invariably expensive, you will likely want to negotiate an out of court settlement (very likely to be cheaper, expect about £100 as a very rough estimate, but leave it up to them to decide the amount, take into account what I said earlier about amounts). Most Train Companies like these, as they get to keep all of the money, so it is in both of your interests that this is attempted. In your reply (you should definitely reply), you should be factual and apologetic, keep it short with a minimum of waffle and without making any excuses. It should ideally take something like the following form: I did X, I would like to apologise, I offer to pay any costs and the fare outstanding, once again sorry and it won't happen again. A fares advisor on the forum should be happy to proofread any letter before you send it, so you avoid further incriminating yourself.

I don't see any reason why they wouldn't settle and they probably will settle. But the ball is in their court and if they wish to make an example of you in court they can.

For reference, on which service did you travel?

 

[Hadders]

Reading the original post what they have actually done is written to you asking for your version of events which they will take into account when deciding how to proceed.

I suggest you respond to this, apologising for your actions, stating that you realise you were wrong to occupy a seat in first class and offering to pay the appropriate difference in fare and the company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter.

Hopefully the train company will then offer an out of court settlement.

If you fail to respond to the letter the train company will probably issue a court summons.

 

[furlong]

I was in the first class seating area on a busy train when I shouldn't have - and I understand now that I'm not entitled to a seat even if there are seats unused in first class, the trains are unbelievably busy in the mornings, and I thought there wasn't any harm; which I know now is wrong. I talked to the plain clothed warrant officer in a polite manner - he was a pretty reasonable guy, chatted a bit after til my stop.

What type of ticket did you hold? Was it season ticket or not? Was it a weekday or weekend? Which train company and between which stations (i.e. was it a Penalty Fares train)?

 

[Bernard01]

What type of ticket did you hold? Was it season ticket or not? Was it a weekday or weekend? Which train company and between which stations (i.e. was it a Penalty Fares train)?

...For reference, on which service did you travel?

It was a return weekday, peak time ticket. Abellio Greater Anglia service, on the line - Southend Victoria to London Liverpool Street.


Thanks for all the advice everyone.

So you guys think I shouldn't wait for a formal prosecution letter before writing to them?

 

[Bernard01]

..Does your letter say anything about this? What is the wording of the thing they are accusing you of?..

The letter is accusing me of nothing. Only stating I was questioned, and asking I can offer any mitigating factors that may influence any decision.

I was never offered a chance to pay the fare, they didn't have any way of taking payment at the time.

 

[Llanigraham]

It was a return weekday, peak time ticket. Abellio Greater Anglia service, on the line - Southend Victoria to London Liverpool Street.


Thanks for all the advice everyone.

So you guys think I shouldn't wait for a formal prosecution letter before writing to them?

NO!
Write to them NOW explaining what happen, apologising for your error, being contrite, and offering to pay the extra for your ticket and any expenses they may have incurred.
If you wait for the "prosecution letter" that means they WILL be taking you to Court and it WILL cost you more.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The letter is accusing me of nothing. Only stating I was questioned, and asking I can offer any mitigating factors that may influence any decision.

I was never offered a chance to pay the fare, they didn't have any way of taking payment at the time.

See above!

 

[furlong]

Another point of view to consider.

Read the relevant parts of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage that covers the contract and then set that against the full circumstances and the conversation you had (the details of which we do not know - something you said might have incriminated yourself).

39. Travelling in first class accommodation with a standard class ticket
If you have a standard class ticket (other than a Season Ticket), no standard class accommodation is available, and staff on that train give their permission, then you may travel in first class accommodation (or the equivalent) where this is available without extra charge.
On-train staff will not give you permission to use first class accommodation (or the equivalent) unless they are satisfied that it is not required by anyone with a first class ticket and the standard class accommodation on the train is full. This permission may be withdrawn if a person holding a first class ticket requires the accommodation during your journey or standard class accommodation becomes available. If you have a standard class ticket and you travel in first class accommodation without permission (which includes occupying seats or standing in any part of the carriage), you will have to pay:
(i) the difference between the price of that ticket and the price of the first class ticket for the accommodation you have used; or
(ii) where Condition 4 (b) applies, you may be charged a Penalty Fare.

Did you not ask for permission? (At the first opportunity?)

Consider whether you can prove (or have already proved to the company) that you did travel with a valid ticket for Standard Class and whether 39(i) applies, and if so, perhaps note in your letter that you have subsequently checked this document and that in accordance with condition 39(i) you are enclosing a cheque etc.

(Or seek professional legal advice.)

 

[gray1404]

Another point of view to consider.

Read the relevant parts of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage that covers the contract and then set that against the full circumstances and the conversation you had (the details of which we do not know - something you said might have incriminated yourself).



Did you not ask for permission? (At the first opportunity?)

Consider whether you can prove (or have already proved to the company) that you did travel with a valid ticket for Standard Class and whether 39(i) applies, and if so, perhaps note in your letter that you have subsequently checked this document and that in accordance with condition 39(i) you are enclosing a cheque etc.

(Or seek professional legal advice.)

I think this is a really interesting point regarding 39(i) and I'd be interested to know what others think? If a customer holds a standard class ticket and they do sit in 1st and they are not on a PF train, then are they only liable for the excess? You certainly could not be treated as ticketless as you did hold a stanard class ticket.

 

[najaB]

I think this is a really interesting point regarding 39(i) and I'd be interested to know what others think? If a customer holds a standard class ticket and they do sit in 1st and they are not on a PF train, then are they only liable for the excess? You certainly could not be treated as ticketless as you did hold a stanard class ticket.

We've had this discussion recently in another thread. Like most RUK threads there was no consensus reached, but my contribution was that the NRCoC govern a contract between the passenger and TOC, while the Byelaws are criminal matters. Just because something is allowed by a contract doesn't make it legal.

 

[Haywain]

I feel this is going off-topic and will not be helpful to the OP, but if the OP presented a standard class ticket while seated in first and did not immediately offer to pay the difference when this was pointed out, then I would feel the opportunity to pay an excess has passed.

 

[swt_passenger]

Condition 4(b) applies here though doesn't it? So 39 (ii) applies, not 39 (i). You don't read them in order and do the first, you do one or the other...

 

[furlong]

Condition 4(b) applies here though doesn't it? So 39 (ii) applies, not 39 (i). You don't read them in order and do the first, you do one or the other...

But if a Penalty Fare wasn't charged, I think that leaves us with (i). (Yes, there are different ways to read these conditions, and some conditions can seem to contradict others. Then throw in the problem of a contract in which, on the face of it, a company has set out how to handle routinely without prosecution a situation that a byelaw, also incorporated into the same contract and enforced through private prosecution by the same party, seems to say would be unlawful and you've got a nice little tangle to increase the income of the legal profession.)

 

[cjmillsnun]

I suspect it has gone beyond condition 39. That would've been something dealt with at the time.

 

[Bernard01]

Again I'd like to thank you guys for the advice and discussion.

Did you not ask for permission? (At the first opportunity?)

Consider whether you can prove (or have already proved to the company) that you did travel with a valid ticket for Standard Class and whether 39(i) applies, and if so, perhaps note in your letter that you have subsequently checked this document and that in accordance with condition 39(i) you are enclosing a cheque etc.

Can't say my memory is my strongest trait, but I doubt I did. I'd have no idea how I'd get permission to sit in a first class area in the first place. I'm pretty sure I asked if I could pay for the price of the ticket there and then, because I know he said I couldn't pay then as they didn't carry machines.

It does look quite interesting how the Conditions are written, but I can't say I'm as versed in these kinds of areas, and honestly most legal talk goes over my head. I'd like to get this potential prosecution over as soon, and simply, as possible - so preferably not fight it.

The majority of posters are telling me not to wait, and to write them back now. So in the next few days I'll write up a sincere of apology,

 

[yorkie]

... I'd have no idea how I'd get permission to sit in a first class area in the first place....

Indeed; on those trains you can't, and you knew that. So your best bet is to simply agree to settle the matter out of court, and avoid a potential criminal record and fine.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The majority of posters are telling me not to wait, and to write them back now. So in the next few days I'll write up a sincere of apology,

You want their costs to be as low as possible, so the least amount of contact they have to make, the less money they have spent pursuing you, and the more likely it is a reasonable settlement can be agreed.

 

[Bernard01]

You want their costs to be as low as possible, so the least amount of contact they have to make, the less money they have spent pursuing you, and the more likely it is a reasonable settlement can be agreed.

Thanks for making that point, I will try and get a letter as soon as possible.

I'd be very grateful anyone who could proofread the letter for me. I should have a good working letter tomorrow.

Again, I can't thank the community here enough for the advice you've all given.