Stagecoach tender for new rolling stock for franchise bids

[Stats]

Stagecoach have issued an OJEU notice for the supply and possibly maintenance of new build rolling stock for future franchise bids. Most interesting is the specification of up to 50 units for Intercity West Coast.

Lot 1 — South Western Franchise

Supply of a fleet of new build electric and self-powered rolling stock for operation on suburban, commuter and long distance heavy rail passenger routes. For operation on electrified routes, the rolling stock will use the 750 V DC third rail system. It is anticipated that there will be three sub-lots for rolling stock units in differing configurations appropriate to service requirements/routes. Units will be in formations of 80 metres, 100 metres, 120 metres and 240 metres in length and the quantity will range between 60 and 200 units.

Contract value anticipated to be between GBP 280 000 000 — GBP 1 400 000 000.

Lot 2 — Intercity West Coast Franchise.

Supply of a fleet of new build electric and self-powered rolling stock for operation on long distance heavy rail passenger routes. For operation on electrified routes, the rolling stock will use the 25 kV AC overhead line system. It is anticipated that there will be two sub-lots for rolling stock units in differing configurations appropriate to service requirements/routes. Units will be in formations of 120 metres and 255 metres in length and the quantity will range between 20 and 50 units.

Contract value anticipated to be between GBP 250 000 000 —GBP 1 250 000 000.

Lot 3 — West Midlands Franchise.

Supply of a fleet of new build electric and self-powered rolling stock for operation on commuter and suburban heavy rail passenger routes. For operation on electrified routes, the rolling stock will use the 25 kV AC overhead line system. It is anticipated that there will be two sub-lots for rolling stock units in differing configurations appropriate to service requirements/routes. Units will be in formations of 70 metres and 80 metres in length and the quantity will range between 40 and 80 units.

Contract value anticipated to be between GBP 250 000 000 —GBP 1 250 000 000.

Lot 4 — East Midlands Franchise.

Supply of a fleet of new build electric rolling stock for operation on long distance heavy rail passenger routes. The rolling stock will use the 25 kV AC overhead line system. Units will be in formations of 184 metres and the quantity will range between 30 and 50 units.

Contract value anticipated to be between GBP 240 000 000 —GBP 800 000 000.

Lot 5 — South Eastern Franchise.

Supply of a fleet of new build electric rolling stock for operation on commuter heavy rail passenger routes. The rolling stock will use the 750 V DC third rail system. Units will be in formations of 80-100 metres and the quantity will range between 50 and 100 units.

 

[northwichcat]

Interesting that they've broken it down. Abellio did an OJEU for new DMUs and EMUs for any franchise they win including Northern and Anglia, which meant it didn't drop any hints - they may or may not have been looking at new DMUs for Anglia, they may or may not have been looking at new EMUs for Northern.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

This is on the assumption of them getting or retaining the existing franchises, of course. And there's no guarantee that they will.

So what happens to these orders if they fail to retain or gain them?

Do they lapse or does the next incumbent get lumbered with them?

 

[swt_passenger]

This is on the assumption of them getting or retaining the existing franchises, of course. And there's no guarantee that they will.

Other potential franchisees will issue their own OJEU notices. However this will possibly be what is known as a 'prior information notice' (PIN) and not an actual ITT.

Turns out it is being done as a 'Framework Agreement'.

The potential Procurement will be based upon a Framework Agreement containing Lots 1 through to 5 and also containing sub Lots within each main Lot where required. However, Stagecoach Rail Holdings Ltd, or any of its subsidiaries reserves the right to amend this list as required in the event that the DfT or any other UK statutory body amend their potential Franchising programme, or that the Stagecoach Rail Holdings Ltd or any of its subsidiaries decides to either bid for any newly offered opportunities or declines to bid for any of the envisaged Franchises.

From: https://www.publictenders.net/node/3106847

The next stage, a proper order, would only proceed after a successful bid was confirmed, awarded and after the 'standstill period'. This process will have been done by all the bidders for the Northern and TPE franchises that are being discussed - eventually we'll find out about what stock orders have been firmed up, but may never see much about the failed bidder's proposals.

 

[WatcherZero]

It is unusual to be so public, usually bidders do it privately telling each manufacturer what they want and getting a written quote in return they can show to Government when bidding. Being public about what you are looking for tips off rival franchise bidders.

 

[SF-02]

What's the point of 100m orders for Southeastern? Its now pretty much a 12 car railway on metro in terms of platforms and power supply, though little stock to utilise, so 120m is needed to make 240m 12 car in peaks, except Victoria routes which are 8 car, so 80m, making 160 and 8 cars. Surely then the order would be 80m and 120m. Don't tell me they will repeat the mistake of connex and order 5 car trains like 376 after all the work upgrading for 12 car?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

You could create a 2 car for quieter lines, like the Isle of Sheppey, Bromley North - Grove Park lines and the Medway valley via Maidstone West/Barracks which during the day is pretty quiet and not worthy of a 4 car set.

It also gives the flexibility to a 2 car set to an 8, where a 12 car isn't quite justified, but a 10 car is.

 

[3141]

This is on the assumption of them getting or retaining the existing franchises, of course. And there's no guarantee that they will.

So what happens to these orders if they fail to retain or gain them?

Do they lapse or does the next incumbent get lumbered with them?

I take it that at this stage they are inviting manufacturers to show what they could do and at what sort of price. Knowing what stock could be available would help them in formulating their bids. An order would only be placed if Stagecoach won a franchise.

 

[edwin_m]

It is unusual to be so public, usually bidders do it privately telling each manufacturer what they want and getting a written quote in return they can show to Government when bidding. Being public about what you are looking for tips off rival franchise bidders.

They're not giving much away though - the range of contract values on two of them is a factor of five!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The word "tilting" is notably missing from the ICWC spec.
Some diesel working also seems to be anticipated, ie bi-modes, not hauled EMUs.
Early days, bids not due for 12 months or so.

 

[Blindtraveler]

The SWT one is interesting as its only really 455s, 456s and the DMU fleat that needs replacing in the next deckade or so, unless of course they've decided that 450s are not suitable for the longer stuff and want something to work alongside the 444s on these jobs? ICWC is I assume Voyager replacement and additional units, EMT for MML Wires, Southeasten Networker replacement but LM? Maybe 323 and 319 replacement and strengthaning?

 

[Hophead]

Given the visible nature of these notices, it likely that suppliers of existing rolling stock will be getting their spreadsheets out and coming to the conclusion that, on reflection, they would be able to offer Stagecoach a more competitive deal than they currently enjoy.

 

[Yew]

I don't like the use of the term 'units' in the contract..

 

[swt_passenger]

The SWT one is interesting as its only really 455s, 456s and the DMU fleat that needs replacing in the next deckade or so, unless of course they've decided that 450s are not suitable for the longer stuff and want something to work alongside the 444s on these jobs?

The Wessex route study recommends the opposite though, with more 450 type stock running in 12 car formation to provide maximum capacity (with 2+3 seats too) on the main routes. The proposed CP6 extra mainline EMU services following Waterloo remodelling and all the mainline capacity works will need more stock all round, it is unlikely anything will be displaced.

However a number of the inner suburban routes where the 455 and 456 mainly operate will be transferred to Crossrail 2 and replacement of them will be TfL's problem.

 

[NotATrainspott]

That the MML tender is for 184m long electric long-distance trains means that they're wanting a quote for AT300s. Not entirely surprising, given that the MML was one of the lines in the initial IEP scope. Interesting that they're only interested in having 7 carriages though, given that the HSTs are 2+8 and it's not possible to double-up a 7 carriage AT300.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I don't like the use of the term 'units' in the contract..

Honest question here; why do you have an issue with the term "unit"?

 

[swt_passenger]

That the MML tender is for 184m long electric long-distance trains means that they're wanting a quote for AT300s. Not entirely surprising, given that the MML was one of the lines in the initial IEP scope. Interesting that they're only interested in having 7 carriages though, given that the HSTs are 2+8 and it's not possible to double-up a 7 carriage AT300.

Why can't they be another manufacturer's 8 X 23m train? Is AT300 the automatic solution to every requirement suddenly?

 

[The Ham]

That the MML tender is for 184m long electric long-distance trains means that they're wanting a quote for AT300s. Not entirely surprising, given that the MML was one of the lines in the initial IEP scope. Interesting that they're only interested in having 7 carriages though, given that the HSTs are 2+8 and it's not possible to double-up a 7 carriage AT300.

There is nothing stopping Stagecoach from retaining some 222's to replace the HST's and use them to serve two different end points. That then allows the new trains to be used to replace the 7 coach 222's which could then be reformed provide a mix of 5 and 6 coach sets (which could run paired up).

An 11 coach pair of 222's has broadly the same number of seats as a HST.

Other than XC (which may opt for new EMU's for south coast to Manchester services and if they do may not need many extra units) the other suggestions for 222's had been Scotland (HST's for the time being) or the GW Cornwall services (AT300's). In which case their owners may be offering them on a fairly competitive lease if bidders can show alternative (coated) options for trains which give the bidders something better than the current 222's can offer (I.e. more seats, bi-modal, and/or lower total running costs).

 

[hwl]

That the MML tender is for 184m long electric long-distance trains means that they're wanting a quote for AT300s. Not entirely surprising, given that the MML was one of the lines in the initial IEP scope. Interesting that they're only interested in having 7 carriages though, given that the HSTs are 2+8 and it's not possible to double-up a 7 carriage AT300.

But 184m is 8x 23m so everyone else has products too...

 

[jopsuk]

quite. Maths is fun! Anyway, the modern platforms are flexible as to carriage length. Note that Hitachi now consider Class 395 to be an AT300 varient- and those have 20m carriages. Bombardier are building Aventra with 22m, 3-door-per-side and 20m, 2-door-per-side versions for Crossrail and London Overground. It's hardly outside the realms of possibility for Bombardier, Siemens and Alstom to offer 26m products, especially with the speculative nature of the current stage in tendering
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't like the use of the term 'units' in the contract..

Why? It's inconceivable that anyone's going to go for all-new loco+stock or power cars+stock for these operations. By defining the requirements in terms of units, it allows manufacturers to be flexible with the carriage lengths. For an example of this, see Crossrail. It was widely expected that this would get 10-car units with 20m cars. Bombardier read the spec carefully and won with a 9-car unit

 

[SpacePhoenix]

For the SWT's one if Siemens do put a tender in will it likely be a mix of Desiro Cities and dc versions of class 380s?

 

[D365]

For the SWT's one if Siemens do put a tender in will it likely be a mix of Desiro Cities and dc versions of class 380s?

What are Siemens tendering for? They'll be bidding for the contract, no?

The Desiro City (and Verve?) is a replacement for the Desiro 'UK' which is no longer compliant. Unlike Bombardier, who seem to always have another few batches of 'Electrostars' up their sleeve

 

[jopsuk]

Possible offerings based on known product ranges:

Siemens: Deisro City & Verve, as appropriate

Bombardier: Aventra (has 125mph possible variant)

Hitachi: AT100, 200, 300, appropriate to requirements.

Alstom: Mystery. But seem to be making noises about engaging with the UK market again. Would be all-new design in all likelihood as the "Coradia Juniper" (334, 459, 460) and "Coradia 1000" (175, 180) are outdated designs and technology. Current Coradia product ranges are all low-floor with roof mounted equipment. Obviously also have the Pendolino range.

Stadler: Would need UK-specific designs. Could many posters dreams be answered?

edits:

CAF: Civity UK (suggested by Stats) - similar to the NIR 3000/4000 classes?

Hyundai Rotem: have built the 22000 class for Iarnród Éireann - similar loading gauge


IMPORTANT NOTE this speculation can be copied and pasted into any rolling stock procurement thread

 

[Stats]

Possible offerings based on known product ranges:

Siemens: Deisro City & Verve, as appropriate

Bombardier: Aventra (has 125mph possible variant)

Hitachi: AT100, 200, 300, appropriate to requirements.

Alstom: Mystery. But seem to be making noises about engaging with the UK market again. Would be all-new design in all likelihood as the "Coradia Juniper" (334, 459, 460) and "Coradia 1000" (175, 180) are outdated designs and technology. Current Coradia product ranges are all low-floor with roof mounted equipment. Obviously also have the Pendolino range.

Stadler: Would need UK-specific designs. Could many posters dreams be answered?


IMPORTANT NOTE this speculation can be copied and pasted into any rolling stock procurement thread

CAF Civity UK?

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Stagecoach have issued an OJEU notice for the supply and possibly maintenance of new build rolling stock for future franchise bids. Most interesting is the specification of up to 50 units for Intercity West Coast.

Lot 1 — South Western Franchise

Supply of a fleet of new build electric and self-powered rolling stock for operation on suburban, commuter and long distance heavy rail passenger routes. For operation on electrified routes, the rolling stock will use the 750 V DC third rail system. It is anticipated that there will be three sub-lots for rolling stock units in differing configurations appropriate to service requirements/routes. Units will be in formations of 80 metres, 100 metres, 120 metres and 240 metres in length and the quantity will range between 60 and 200 units.

Contract value anticipated to be between GBP 280 000 000 — GBP 1 400 000 000.

Interesting about the self powered units, class 158/9 replacement perhaps in addition to 455's and 456's?

Lot 2 — Intercity West Coast Franchise.

Supply of a fleet of new build electric and self-powered rolling stock for operation on long distance heavy rail passenger routes. For operation on electrified routes, the rolling stock will use the 25 kV AC overhead line system. It is anticipated that there will be two sub-lots for rolling stock units in differing configurations appropriate to service requirements/routes. Units will be in formations of 120 metres and 255 metres in length and the quantity will range between 20 and 50 units.

Contract value anticipated to be between GBP 250 000 000 —GBP 1 250 000 000.

The 20 class 221's are an obvious candidate for replacement. If they were replaced like for like that would create 20 5 car EMU's at around 120 meters, although some could be replaced by the longer 225m trains which would be 9x 23m but then they couldn't be doubled up. That sill leaves an option for up to 30 trains potentially up to nine carriages long. What would the ICWC franchise want so many trains for.

Lot 3 — West Midlands Franchise.

Supply of a fleet of new build electric and self-powered rolling stock for operation on commuter and suburban heavy rail passenger routes. For operation on electrified routes, the rolling stock will use the 25 kV AC overhead line system. It is anticipated that there will be two sub-lots for rolling stock units in differing configurations appropriate to service requirements/routes. Units will be in formations of 70 metres and 80 metres in length and the quantity will range between 40 and 80 units.

Contract value anticipated to be between GBP 250 000 000 —GBP 1 250 000 000.

The option for EMU's in this franchise is interesting with Northerns 323's going off lease and potentially TPE 350/4's I would have thought that the West Midlands franchise EMU needs were sorted. The 70m units would be 3x23m DMU's or EMU's if Stagecoach are looking at 323 replacement.

Lot 4 — East Midlands Franchise.

Supply of a fleet of new build electric rolling stock for operation on long distance heavy rail passenger routes. The rolling stock will use the 25 kV AC overhead line system. Units will be in formations of 184 metres and the quantity will range between 30 and 50 units.

Contract value anticipated to be between GBP 240 000 000 —GBP 800 000 000.

This one is of most interest to me obviously. As previously said 8x23m or 7x26m are possible. EMT's current fleet consists of 27x class 222's in varying in lengths of 4, 5 and 7 carriages and I think 12 HST's, so around 40 units in total. A uniform fleet of 40x 8 car trains would be an increase in the number of carriages but would lose the flexibility that exists with the 222's allowing trains to be doubled up to crate 9, 10 or 11 cars for busy services. The option for up to 50 units may be to accommodate the 6th train path from St Pancras.

Lot 5 — South Eastern Franchise.

Supply of a fleet of new build electric rolling stock for operation on commuter heavy rail passenger routes. The rolling stock will use the 750 V DC third rail system. Units will be in formations of 80-100 metres and the quantity will range between 50 and 100 units.

Don't know enough about the South Eastern franchise to comment but what stock would Stagecoach looking to replace with new build EMU's?

 

[RobShipway]

CAF Civity UK?

Yes, here is how the CAF Civity UK could look.

 

[edwin_m]

This one is of most interest to me obviously. As previously said 8x23m or 7x26m are possible. EMT's current fleet consists of 27x class 222's in varying in lengths of 4, 5 and 7 carriages and I think 12 HST's, so around 40 units in total. A uniform fleet of 40x 8 car trains would be an increase in the number of carriages but would lose the flexibility that exists with the 222's allowing trains to be doubled up to crate 9, 10 or 11 cars for busy services. The option for up to 50 units may be to accommodate the 6th train path from St Pancras.

Yes this is interesting. The busiest trains today are pairs of 5-car 222s and I suspect a single 5-car would probably be enough for many of the off-peak workings, even some that are HSTs at present. So why not a uniform fleet of about 115m? I think the maximum at St Pancras is 10x23m (or can a 7+4 combination be fitted?) so 184m won't make best use of scarce paths.

Note that there is no requirement for bi-mode on the MML (it is mentioned for some of the other routes but not here). Without this feature it's a level playing field between an IEP derivative and something more conventional...

 

[Haydn1971]

Just throwing a wild card in here... New trains to replace the 220/221/222 fleets - hmmm... "New" 125mph trains for TPE ? Could the new (non electric) trains be refurbished XC/EMT units reformed in to five car units ?

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Just throwing a wild card in here... New trains to replace the 220/221/222 fleets - hmmm... "New" 125mph trains for TPE ? Could the new (non electric) trains be refurbished XC/EMT units reformed in to five car units ?

None will be freed up by electrification till 2023 just as the transpennine wires go live too, so unlikely I think.

 

[Class 170101]

What's the point of 100m orders for Southeastern? Its now pretty much a 12 car railway on metro in terms of platforms and power supply, though little stock to utilise, so 120m is needed to make 240m 12 car in peaks, except Victoria routes which are 8 car, so 80m, making 160 and 8 cars. Surely then the order would be 80m and 120m. Don't tell me they will repeat the mistake of connex and order 5 car trains like 376 after all the work upgrading for 12 car?

But surely a frequency increase needs more trains?