Season Ticket appeal - TFL Rail

[Marisol]

I'd be grateful for any help you can offer with regards to a penalty notice I have been given by TFL Rail. I've had a look at some similar threads and wonder if my case is similar to the one - http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=123166

I have a paper ticket season ticket too, from Brentwood to London Terminals. A few weeks ago I got to the barriers at Liverpool Sreet and couldn't find my ticket in my bag, although I knew I'd seen it that morning when leaving the house. After a few minutes of panic I approached the TFL rail staff at the barriers and asked what to do - whether I should use my contactless card, or buy a new ticket from them. He said that wasn't possible, but that what he would do was give me a penalty fare, which I could then appeal, and that the penalty fare would be cancelled if I could find my season ticket, or if I couldn't find it, when I got a new one issued at my home station. Fortunately, when I got home that night, I found my ticket had fallen out in the garden. Relief all round.

I duly appealed the fare, and two weeks later got a letter from the appeals service to say that it was being considered and that I would recieve a response in seven days. That was today, and I've now had a letter from the appeals service to say that the appeal was denied and I must pay the £40 within 14 days. It goes on to say that season tickets must always be carried and that copies of season tickets and photocards produced at a later date in support of an appeal will not be considered.

I presume I now have to pay the £40, although I think it's unduly harsh, as I did not attempt to do anything else apart from ask for help before going through the barriers. Should I try and appeal further? I am also quite angry with TFL Rail for saying that I could successfully appeal, when the appeals service says that appeals with copies of season tickets will never be considered. Any help would be much appreciated, even it says to pay up. I'm just thinking that some of the suggestions in the previous linked thread say that season ticket holders normally have two opportunties to present a ticket afterwards in situations like this. I've had the same season ticket for over ten years, and this has not happened before.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think Condition 35 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage is going to be important here:

35. Season Ticket or photocard unavailable for inspection

If you do not show a Season Ticket, or any photocard required with a Season Ticket, when asked by staff or agents of a Train Company, you will be treated as having joined a train without a ticket and Condition 2 or 4 will apply.

If, subsequently, you present at the office where the Season Ticket was issued:

(a) the Season Ticket;
(b) the photocard, if required; and
(c) the additional tickets you have purchased or any Penalty Fares notices, the relevant Train Company may, at its discretion, refund any fares paid in accordance with Condition 2 or 4 less a reasonable administration charge (not exceeding £10). No more than two such claims will be considered in any 12 month period regardless of the number of Season Tickets purchased in that time.

(My bold)

To me that means that they can cancel (or refund) a Penalty Fare issued to a season ticket holder (assuming that two claims haven't already been made) but they do not have to do so and can proceed with requesting payment.

As it's TfL Rail the appeals process can be found in detail here. As you've completed a stage one appeal you could now move on to a stage two appeal if you wished to do so:

3.2 Second Stage Appeals

All second stage appeals are considered by the Youth and Penalty Fares Manager in TfL’s Enforcement & On-Street Operations (EOS).

Responses to second stage appeals will normally be provided within 21 days of receipt of the appeal. However, in certain circumstances it may not be possible to meet this deadline or it may be necessary to investigate a case further. If the delay in providing an outcome is likely to be significant the appellant will normally be notified of this in writing.

TfL may request further evidence from an appellant to support their claim. In these circumstances a letter requesting the supporting information will be sent to the appellant specifying a deadline within which this information must be provided. If the deadline is not met the appeal will normally be refused.

If an appellant submits a second stage appeal, all previous correspondence with IAS or TOL will be requested by TfL and considered as part of their appeal. The Youth and Penalty Fares Manager reviews each case and considers any mitigation put forward by the appellant. The appellant is then informed of the decision in writing. If the decision is made to turn down the
appellant’s second stage appeal, they will be provided with details on how to submit a final appeal to the Independent Appeals Panel (IAP).

However I'm not sure that it would achieve anything as they may well uphold the decision of the first stage appeal decision and the decision to issue the Penalty Fare as I do not think they are required to waive the Penalty Fare even if you subsequently can present the Season ticket. Note that if you do wish to appeal you have 14 days to do so.

It would seem very harsh but I think they are well within their rights to pursue payment for the Penalty Fare. So it might be wise to pay it now at the £40 level rather than allow it to reach the £80 level.

 

[iphone76]

I've appealed a few times when I left my season ticket (from Wickford to Liverpool Street) at home and have always been successful. I just took it for granted so was surprised you didn't.

I know that you have gone over to tfl rail whereas we are still Greater Anglia which may explain the difference in policies.

I hope you get this sorted.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Pay it at the £40 level and argue about it afterwards. Definitely do the second stage appeal; unless you've left your ticket at home before, it's extremely unusual for an appeal to be rejected.

It seems very harsh, especially as if you'd not spoken to anyone and just used the Contactless payment card you'd only have been stung for the maximum fare...

 

[Marisol]

Thanks all, for the advice. I will pay the £40 now to stop it getting any higher . I'm definitely going to appeal though, as it seems that people on here and at work have been successful, which is encouraging. Is there anything you think it's worth focusing on in the appeal letter?

I have to say it's a discouragement to be honest next time though. Three weeks of stress and it's painful financially at this time of year to pay the fine. If it ever happens again I'd be very tempted just to use the contactless to maximum fare out and not bother asking

 

[furlong]

It goes on to say that season tickets must always be carried and that copies of season tickets and photocards produced at a later date in support of an appeal will not be considered.

That seems incorrect - they must be considered as far as I can tell (although that doesn't mean the decision has always to go your way) - so you seem to have clear grounds for appeal against that decision there.

However, the National Rail Conditions of Carriage quoted higher up this thread basically tells you to pay the Penalty Fare and then seek a refund from the place at which you purchased your season ticket - something handled outside the appeals process.
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. If it ever happens again I'd be very tempted just to use the contactless to maximum fare out and not bother asking

But being caught doing that could lead to prosecution. The rules are very clear - if you find yourself without your season ticket you need to buy another ticket (which might be a Penalty Fare) for the complete journey. If that ticket is a Penalty Fare, then the person who issues it is supposed to know how you get it cancelled or refunded (different train companies may follow different processes) so if the information provided on this occasion was incorrect, that in itself could form grounds for a complaint.

 

[Marisol]

But being caught doing that could lead to prosecution. The rules are very clear - if you find yourself without your season ticket you need to buy another ticket (which might be a Penalty Fare) for the complete journey. If that ticket is a Penalty Fare, then the person who issues it is supposed to know how you get it cancelled or refunded (different train companies may follow different processes) so if the information provided on this occasion was incorrect, that in itself could form grounds for a complaint.

No, I doubt I'd actually do that. I have a terrible conscience and I'd end up feeling too guilty to do it.

It's just frustrating though. I stopped to talk to the guys on the TFL Rail info desk at Liverpool St today to ask something else. I asked them about this as well and they both said I would have been fine if it had still been Greater Anglia. But they said that TFL Rail keeps changing its mind about Penalty fares and no one there is clear about the situation and also because TFLRail is not the same as a national rail operating company it will treat people differently. I never thought I'd wish for Greater Anglia back

 

[Clip]

It seems very harsh, especially as if you'd not spoken to anyone and just used the Contactless payment card you'd only have been stung for the maximum fare...

I cant agree with this because by doing so it shows that you did travel without a valid ticket and as such could be prosecuted regardless of the max fare rule and therefore intent to travel ticketless, no matter how much the max fare is.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Yes. In fact, that offer to pay after travel looks very much like a modern day equivalent of the scam operated by Piers Corbyn (yes, the brother of that Corbyn) which gave us the paradigm for the majority of prosecutions for fare evasion ever since, in Corbyn v Saunders [1978] 1 WLR 400.

 

[John Palmer]

A couple of points I don't understand here:

a) Why does the OP's conduct look like a modern day equivalent of the Corbyn scam?

b) Given the admittedly anecdotal accounts that the discretion referred to in NCOC 35(c) is generally exercised in the season ticket holder's favour, why would it not have been so exercised in this case?

Apologies if there is something obvious that I am missing.

 

[najaB]

b) Given the admittedly anecdotal accounts that the discretion referred to in NCOC 35(c) is generally exercised in the season ticket holder's favour, why would it not have been so exercised in this case?

'Generally' ≠ 'Always'

 

[Clip]

A couple of points I don't understand here:

a) Why does the OP's conduct look like a modern day equivalent of the Corbyn scam?

b) Given the admittedly anecdotal accounts that the discretion referred to in NCOC 35(c) is generally exercised in the season ticket holder's favour, why would it not have been so exercised in this case?

Apologies if there is something obvious that I am missing.

I think DaveNewcastle was replying to my post about not using contactless to get out the barriers for a max charge.

 

[rs101]

'Generally' ≠ 'Always'

If you read TFL Rail's response, they imply Never, not Generally...

 

[najaB]

If you read TFL Rail's response, they imply Never, not Generally...

'Generally applied by TOCs' ≠ 'Applied by all TOCs'

 

[Tetchytyke]

I cant agree with this because by doing so it shows that you did travel without a valid ticket and as such could be prosecuted regardless of the max fare rule and therefore intent to travel ticketless, no matter how much the max fare is.

...only if it is detected. Which on a one-off occasion is not that likely (although by no means impossible).

I am, of course, not suggesting the OP- or anyone else- should deliberately attempt to evade a fare. I am merely pointing out that, in this case, the OP's honesty has cost them about thirty quid, which hardly seems fair.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Or in my case I was actually advised to use contact less by the member of TfL staff at the gate line.

 

[John Palmer]

I think DaveNewcastle was replying to my post about not using contactless to get out the barriers for a max charge.

Sorry, but I still don't understand, since DaveNewcastle was making a specific reference to 'that offer to pay after travel', which I took to relate to the OP's statement that 'I approached the TFL rail staff at the barriers and asked what to do - whether I should use my contactless card, or buy a new ticket from them.' I fully comprehend that using a contactless card to release a barrier because the cardholder had no ticket to hand to do so can evidence a form of fare evasion, but I don't understand how it can represent an 'offer to pay after travel.' What am I missing?

Regarding my second point as to a consistent (or otherwise) exercise of discretion, am I correct in thinking that a relevant consideration is the operative Conditions of Carriage applicable to sale of the OP's season? It appears that the ticket may have been sold subject either to NCoC or to TfL CoC, which differ from each other as to the treatment of season ticket holders who do not have the ticket on them when making a journey covered by it. Perhaps this is something the OP needs to clarify.

 

[najaB]

Regarding my second point as to a consistent (or otherwise) exercise of discretion...

As a point of order, discretion is the ability to decide what should be done in a particular situation, rather than rote application of the rules. 'Consistent application of discretion' is the exact antithesis of consistently applying (or not applying) the same penalty.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Why does the OP's conduct look like a modern day equivalent of the Corbyn scam?

I think DaveNewcastle was replying to my post about not using contactless to get out the barriers for a max charge.

I was!

You'd responded to Arctic Troll's remark: "especially as if you'd not spoken to anyone and just used the Contactless payment card" and said

. . . it shows that you did travel without a valid ticket and as such could be prosecuted regardless of the max fare rule and therefore intent to travel ticketless, no matter how much the max fare is.

I was reminded that Corbyn's technique in the 1970's was to carry pre-printed slips of paper offering to pay a fare for the unpaid part of his journey on request, one of which he would present when he encountered a ticket check at the end of his journey, and which supposedly allowed the Company a means of obtaining a payment after the event; and I then considered the similarity with the present day arrangement of carrying a contactless payment card which can be presented if there is a ticket check at the end of a journey, and which allows the Company to collect payment after the event.

. . . but I don't understand how it can represent an 'offer to pay after travel.' What am I missing?

I saw the act of presenting a contactless payment card after travel as having much the same effect as offering a piece of paper which purported to serve as a promissory note.

 

[matt_world2004]

I cant agree with this because by doing so it shows that you did travel without a valid ticket and as such could be prosecuted regardless of the max fare rule and therefore intent to travel ticketless, no matter how much the max fare is.

I would argue a max fare for a incomplete journey is a valid fare, as they charge it. If they didnt want you paying a max fare they wouldnt charge it.

 

[Clip]

I would argue a max fare for a incomplete journey is a valid fare, as they charge it. If they didnt want you paying a max fare they wouldnt charge it.

Its there because that is how the system is set up - when you touch in it takes off the maximum fare and then when you touch out it reconciles the difference so the correct amount is taken off your card.

And the rules of using Oyster PAYG are very firm in stating you must touch in before the start of your journey AND be in possession of a validated Oyster for your journey or some other bumf , its early lol

Plus see the bloke who got collared by SET and his max fare journey malarkey in the press not too long ago....

 

[bb21]

I would argue a max fare for a incomplete journey is a valid fare, as they charge it. If they didnt want you paying a max fare they wouldnt charge it.

A valid fare for what exactly?

 

[matt_world2004]

A valid fare for what exactly?

I would guess for not touching in. I would guess it wouldnt be too difficult to reject a card at the barriers that didn't touch in and didn't have a valid ticket for the station.yet they choose not to.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I saw the act of presenting a contactless payment card after travel as having much the same effect as offering a piece of paper which purported to serve as a promissory note.

An Oyster or CPC isn't a promissory note, though, it is payment. On Oyster the payment is instantaneous, on a CPC it is reconciled later that day, but the effect is the same.
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And the rules of using Oyster PAYG are very firm in stating you must touch in before the start of your journey AND be in possession of a validated Oyster for your journey or some other bumf , its early lol

If TfL were that worried they'd charge Penalty Fares directly to the card for anyone who fails to touch in at the start of the journey.

 

[najaB]

If TfL were that worried they'd charge Penalty Fares directly to the card for anyone who fails to touch in at the start of the journey.

They can't - unless the barrier also printed a Penalty Fare notice.

 

[John Palmer]

Speaking as one who eschews the use of a CPC, light only dawned when Clip pointed out that the max fare is automatically taken on the first touch in (does an exit barrier trigger such a transaction?).

It does strike me as artificial to characterise such an action as the equivalent of proffering a promissory note, but in any case, since Corbyn was concerned with what constituted intent to avoid payment, I’m having difficulty seeing how this applies to a passenger who had previously purchased a ticket covering the journey in question.

Since the OP apparently made no attempt to conceal the fact that the season was not to hand, and, on the contrary, enquired how the journey was to be paid for, any debate about the application of Corbyn would seem to miss the point.

I remain interested in discovering whether the OP’s ticket was purchased subject to National Rail’s or Transport for London’s Conditions of Carriage, because the conditions in these applicable to failure to have a season about one’s person have significant differences, as do the online representations as to how such a situation will be dealt with. The relevant nationrail web page at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46571.aspx includes unqualified representations that an individual season ticket holder will be able to get a refund in the OP’s circumstances twice in any 12 month period and that an administrative charge will be made on the second such occasion. A season ticket holder in the OP’s position is justified in expecting operators to adhere to that.

The OP rightly drew attention to the similarities of the circumstances in the http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=123166 thread. I appreciate that operators have a discretion as to whether to refund a charge made under Condition 35 of NRCoC (assuming that is applicable to the case) but in the light of the matters to which I have referred I would still like to know what justification there can be for denial of a refund.

 

[Chrisgr31]

I have in the past accidentially tapped out using my Oyster PAYG when arriving at the London terminus.

When I realised I went to a tube station and they checked my season ticket, checked my oyster card and gave me a refund for my error.

I have also arrived at the London Terminus to find that I no longer had my ticket in my possession. I was given a penalty fare notice, which also covered my return journey. I couldn't find my season ticket at home so contacted Abellio who issue my season ticket.

They issued a replacement ticket and advised me to reply for a refund of the tickets I had bought whilst waiting for the replacement ticket to arrive. I was pondering what to do about the penalty fare notice when the ticket seller at the local station called out to me as I walked through and handed me my original ticket which had been handed in. I was able to send copies of the penalty fare notice and tickets to Southern and heard no more.

My understanding is that as paper tickets can be used without trace by anyone unless there is a physical examination of ticket and photocard there is a fear that a season ticket could be used by someone known to the season ticket holder, whilst the latter argues when stopped they have left it at home. However surely that becomes clear if the same person is stopped often?

The solution is of course electronic tickets, which retain details of journeys undertaken and can therefore prove they have not been used when the ticket holder says they can't.

 

[Marisol]

I remain interested in discovering whether the OP’s ticket was purchased subject to National Rail’s or Transport for London’s Conditions of Carriage, because the conditions in these applicable to failure to have a season about one’s person have significant differences, as do the online representations as to how such a situation will be dealt with. The relevant nationrail web page at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46571.aspx includes unqualified representations that an individual season ticket holder will be able to get a refund in the OP’s circumstances twice in any 12 month period and that an administrative charge will be made on the second such occasion. A season ticket holder in the OP’s position is justified in expecting operators to adhere to that.

I have no idea what conditions it was purchased under I'm afraid. I tend to either get them from Brentwood or Liverpool Street stations just over the counter. I think this last one was purchased at Liverpool Street. Does that help?

 

[John Palmer]

On which operator's trains can you use your ticket? I suspect you may be using it for travel on TfL Rail trains, in which case you are likely to be subject to TfL's Conditions of Carriage. If the ticket was issued subject to National Rail Conditions of Carriage then I think there will be a statement to that effect on the reverse of the ticket. Worth looking for any such statement on your ticket as it may clarify the position.

 

[ian959]

I remain interested in discovering whether the OP’s ticket was purchased subject to National Rail’s or Transport for London’s Conditions of Carriage, because the conditions in these applicable to failure to have a season about one’s person have significant differences, as do the online representations as to how such a situation will be dealt with. The relevant nationrail web page at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46571.aspx includes unqualified representations that an individual season ticket holder will be able to get a refund in the OP’s circumstances twice in any 12 month period and that an administrative charge will be made on the second such occasion. A season ticket holder in the OP’s position is justified in expecting operators to adhere to that.

Not exactly a correct reading of the web site. A season ticket holder will be able to get ONE duplicate season ticket of the original, subject to one qualification: they must report the loss immediately to the ticket office where they bought the ticket. There IS an administration charge for issuing that duplicate season ticket. In certain circumstances a second duplicate season ticket will be issued, most notably that the loss is reported to the relevant authorities.

The web site is quite clear that you must first report the loss to the ticket office where the season ticket was bought. Technically the OP did not do that at a guess? Therefore all that follows technically has no application to the OPs situation.

Now of course that is morally unreasonable in the OPs circumstances and hopefully common sense would prevail, but regrettably common sense is not so common anymore.