Northern franchise awarded to Arriva.

[bradders1983]

Does Rotherham Central get any improvement in services from either new franchisee? Higher frequency? New destinations etc?

Doesnt look like it. It is getting the tram/train thing, though.

 

[swt_passenger]

Someone put the following post on another forum:

Only after he'd already posted it here though...

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2389257&postcount=145

 

[onlinespotting]

Gates to be installed at 8 Northern stations - I wonder if that's all new ones or it includes Manchester Pic / Crewe / Stoke on Trent etc.

Id say not, Man Pic is Network Rail , Crewe and Stoke are Virgin and all three are having gates fitted by Virgin.

 

[anti-pacer]

There's no more litter on Northern trains than there was on the London Midland and FCC trains I used to take to work. The difference was they had cleaners tidying it up throughout the day but Northern don't or didn't, meaning it just piled up. Other than empty coffee cups and discarded Metros there's not been much damage. But the issue of litter has been rehashed on here by anti-pacer about a billion times.

There's also the issue that people will take less care over things that are neglected, and the 142s and 155s are in a pretty sorry state internally these days.

I was just saying! :roll:

 

[L+Y]

Much as I do approve (and at the same time am surprised) - why are they making such a huge thing of the Ormskirk-Preston improvements? It's hardly as if it is an important line to the franchise. Does someone important in Government live along it, perhaps?

Nope, though one of the local MPs, Seema Kennedy, is a bit of a rising star within the Conservative Party.

Still, whatever the reason, I'm delighted to see it: I believe a regular clockface timetable will be the best that Ormskirk-Preston has ever seen, even back in L&YR glory days. That said, if ever a route was suitable for something like e-Pacer or D-Trains, this line is it. Let's hope it doesn't gobble up a pair of 156s!

 

[scrapy]

Id say not, Man Pic is Network Rail , Crewe and Stoke are Virgin and all three are having gates fitted by Virgin.

Gates are only being fitted on platforms 4 to 7 at Manchester Piccadilly by Virgin. I have heard that barriering the other platforms will be the responsibility of the new Northern franchisee.

Apparently Liverpool Lime Street, Bradford Forster Sq, Bolton and Blackburn are also to be done. Don't know how they will barrier Blackburn though. Presumably there will be 3 others.

 

[onlinespotting]

Are the parlys mentioned?

Also I presume the pacers will be replaced in tranches up until the 2019 deadline; I wonder which unfortunate lines will keep them till the bitter end?!

 

[northwichcat]

Isnt the one in bold Bradford to Nottingham rather than Leeds to Nottingham?

Yes it is. I missed that it was being diverted/extended until after I posted that list.

Does anyone know the Timescale on any of this or has any other info worth adding?

One thing to note is the DMUs currently used on Blackpool services will need redeploying to other routes as soon as it is possible to do so. Also the new Chester-Bradford-Leeds and Liverpool-Manchester Airport services must start in December 17. Arriva have to have their 'Northern Connect' standard trains in place as soon as they can and no later than December 2019, so there's a chance the Manchester Airport to Blackpool service may be temporarily downgraded in quality.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Are the parlys mentioned?

The existing ones have to remain except for the Ellesmere Port ones which are replaced by peak time only services between Ellesmere Port and Leeds via Bradford.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The existing ones have to remain except for the Ellesmere Port ones which are replaced by peak time only services between Ellesmere Port and Leeds via Bradford.

There's nothing about Ellesmere Port in the announcements.
Looks to me like they all go to Chester.

 

[Chrisyd]

Gates are only being fitted on platforms 4 to 7 at Manchester Piccadilly by Virgin. I have heard that barriering the other platforms will be the responsibility of the new Northern franchisee.

Apparently Liverpool Lime Street, Bradford Forster Sq, Bolton and Blackburn are also to be done. Don't know how they will barrier Blackburn though. Presumably there will be 3 others.

Would it not make sense for Salford Central to have barriers? With the extra platforms and increasing the height of the existing ones, surely the barrier work could be tagged onto that programme?

 

[eastwestdivide]

Does Rotherham Central get any improvement in services from either new franchisee? Higher frequency? New destinations etc?

The only thing I saw was an improvement in Sunday Sheffield-Leeds stoppers to 1 per hour.

From http://maps.dft.gov.uk/northern/index.html :

Stopping service Sheffield-Moorthorpe-Leeds will be hourly (currently two-hourly).

Would be nice to get the new fast Nottingham service stopping at Rotherham, but that might do away with the time gains between Leeds-Sheff versus the Barnsley routing.

 

[northwichcat]

There's nothing about Ellesmere Port in the announcements.
Looks to me like they all go to Chester.

The announcements don't have much detail at this stage but a peak time Ellesmere Port service was mentioned in the minimum requirement in the ITT so unless DfT have changed their mind or ATW are going to provide that instead of peak time extras to Chester, it'll have to be included.

 

[anti-pacer]

With regards to new EMU's on the Airedale/Wharfedale lines, do you think this will be a uniformed fleet or a mix of these and 333's?

If it's going to be all new units, what's likely to happen to the 333's?

 

[lejog]

Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere, but the transformation of the Calder Valley services seems amazing. I expected significant improvements over the services described in the ITT document, but this seems incredible. The improvements are dispersed over different maps, but it seem to me that:

1. There will be 3tph Bradford to Manchester services (for most of the day), it is implied that the new service being an extra semi fast service calling at Halifax, Hebden Bridge and Todmorden (not Rochdale?)(Bradford map)
2. 2 of these trains will be extended to Liverpool via Newton-le-Willows and Manchester Airport using new rolling stock and will be Northern Connect Services (Bradford Map)
3. There will be a new extra Halifax to Leeds service, presumably utilising the new platform to be built at Halifax (Bradford map)
4, A greatly improved evening service (good news for me since currently after 7pm the line reverts to its 1970s pattern of 1tph all station stoppers)(Bradford map)

Here the fun begins - improvements described on other maps:

5. Blackpool to York services will also be new rolling stock Northern Connect services (Blackpool map).
6. A new Bradford Interchange to Nottingham Northern Connect service via Leeds, Wakefield, and Sheffield (Leeds-Nottingham map)
7. There will be a Chester to Leeds new rolling stock Northern Connect service (Chester map). This will presumably be the 3rd tph mentioned in point 1, although the map shows services running both through Bradford and Dewsbury. This does imply to me that at during rush hours this service will run via fast from Calder Valley stations to Leeds (e.g. Hebden Bridge to Leeds is possible in 30mins compared to 48mins via Bradford). Perhaps this is wishful thinking on my part, but this has been an aspiration of Calderdale Council and WYMetro for some time.
8. A service (presumably the via Brighouse stopper, its the only service left!) will be extended to Southport (Southport map).

So mostly extremely good news with new rolling stock on 5 Northern Connect services and all Victoria services extended to destinations west (not unexpected but the east facing bays at Victoria are going to be rather empty). Less good news for the stopping services with only a new Halifax to Leeds service and 1 extra tph at Moston promised. Certain posters on the Todmorden Curve thread will be disappointed that there is no mention of speeding up the Burnley service or new rolling stock(!). No mention either of Rochdale terminators from the west, although there presumably will be some.

 

[bradders1983]

Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere, but the transformation of the Calder Valley services seems amazing. I expected significant improvements over that described in the ITT document, but this seems incredible. The improvements are dispersed over different maps, but it seem to me that:

1. There will be 3tph Bradford to Manchester services (for most of the day), it is implied that the new service being an extra semi fast service calling at Halifax, Hebden Bridge and Todmorden (not Rochdale?)(Bradford map)

Would be ridiculous if it didnt call at Rochdale having called at Hebden Bridge and Tod!

 

[northwichcat]

With regards to new EMU's on the Airedale/Wharfedale lines, do you think this will be a uniformed fleet or a mix of these and 333's?

If it's going to be all new units, what's likely to happen to the 333's?

The short answer is it's unclear at the moment. It's also unclear what will happen with Leeds-Doncaster other than the 321/2s will be replaced and it's also unclear whether new or cascaded stock will replace the 323s except on Hadfield services where new stock is mentioned.

 

[Masbroughlad]

Does Rotherham Central get any improvements in services? New destinations etc? (Either with TPE or northern)

Apologies. My phones done a wobbly and posted this twice. Not sure how I delete one of them! Apologies.

 

[bradders1983]

Does Rotherham Central get any improvements in services? New destinations etc? (Either with TPE or northern)

You asked this about an hour ago and got an answer to it.

 

[Bantamzen]

The short answer is it's unclear at the moment. It's also unclear what will happen with Leeds-Doncaster other than the 321/2s will be replaced and it's also unclear whether new or cascaded stock will replace the 323s except on Hadfield services where new stock is mentioned.

I was wondering about the fate of the 321/2s myself. It does seem to suggest that some 4 car units will move in to place the 323s, but it's not clear if these are going to be 319s already moving into the North West, or the 321/2s from Yorkshire. Given that SYPTE helped to finance the 4th cars in the 333 formations, I wouldn't be entirely be surprised to see these operate on the Doncaster with the 321/2s heading west. Of course that still leaves plenty of 333s left as there isn't yet a commitment to strengthen the Leeds-Doncaster service, so this will only need 3 or 4 units diagrammed in. So logically you might expect a mix of old and new, with perhaps the opportunity to refresh / refit the 333s as new EMUs land.

But the wording of the planned improvements is a bit vague:

•brand-new electric trains, operating in formations of six carriages on the busiest services (the longest trains at present have only four), will offer more seats

So does this mean all new trains, or just six car (presumably made up of 2 x3 car units) at the peaks, then a mixture at other times. And if 3 cars units are part of the order, will they ever run in single formation off-peak (reducing the current capacity)? I guess we'll just have to wait for the ink to dry in 10 days or so.

 

[lejog]

Would be ridiculous if it didnt call at Rochdale having called at Hebden Bridge and Tod!

Possibly, but Network Rail have giving some expectations of improving the Bradford to Manchester journey time to below 55mins, while protecting the stops at Hebden Bridge and Tod. This would save a couple of minutes, which along with line speed improvements (at least some of the line is being upgraded to 85/90mph under the Northern Hub) and hopefully better acceleration of the new rolling stock could meet this. Rochdale with its new platform will presumably getting extra terminating services anyway, although I can't see this mentioned. Otherwise the current building work going on there will be a waste of money!

 

[Masbroughlad]

Does Rotherham Central get any improvement in services from either new franchisee? Higher frequency? New destinations etc?

You asked this about an hour ago and got an answer to it.

Yes my phone's done a wobbly. Didn't mean to repost it!

 

[northwichcat]

So does this mean all new trains, or just six car (presumably made up of 2 x3 car units) at the peaks, then a mixture at other times. And if 3 cars units are part of the order, will they ever run in single formation off-peak (reducing the current capacity)? I guess we'll just have to wait for the ink to dry in 10 days or so.

If it's to replace all the 333s I wouldn't be surprised if it means something like 16 x 4 car EMUs, replaced by something like 24 x 3 car EMUs resulting in more carriages on the busiest services and less on the quieter services.

 

[Masbroughlad]

The only thing I saw was an improvement in Sunday Sheffield-Leeds stoppers to 1 per hour.

From http://maps.dft.gov.uk/northern/index.html :


Would be nice to get the new fast Nottingham service stopping at Rotherham, but that might do away with the time gains between Leeds-Sheff versus the Barnsley routing.

That is an improvement on Sundays. Two hourly is hopeless as at present.

I too wondered if (hoped that) Leeds to Nottingham services may stop at Rotherham.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That is an improvement on Sundays. Two hourly is hopeless as at present.

I too wondered if (hoped that) Leeds to Nottingham services may stop at Rotherham.

The route via the Holmes chord is quite slow, isn't it? It's also single in places and will have 3 tram-train services per hour so I'd have thought the Nottingham services will run fast via Masborough. Some peak calls might be possible though.

 

[F262YTJ]

Missed oppurtunity is that there is no mention of reopning the Burscough Curves opening up more oppurtunity for connecting Southport directly to the West coast Main Line at Preston.

 

[43074]

The timeline on the DFT website suggests 36 'more' carriages at Northern from the end of 2022 - i.e. 12 3-car units. Where could these come from? 185s perhaps?

 

[Bantamzen]

If it's to replace all the 333s I wouldn't be surprised if it means something like 16 x 4 car EMUs, replaced by something like 24 x 3 car EMUs resulting in more carriages on the busiest services and less on the quieter services.

That may be the case, although many Aire and Wharfe services throughout the day can also get busy, not just at the peaks or in the same flow as the peaks. So some seriously complex diagramming might be needed to ensure that 3 car units don't turn up for busier services. And the diagramming is already fairly complex with all units operating all routes at points during the day, with a couple of ECS moves thrown in for good measure too. Some of these could prove problematic if a 3 car showed up instead of an already busy 4 car.

 

[Masbroughlad]

The route via the Holmes chord is quite slow, isn't it? It's also single in places and will have 3 tram-train services per hour so I'd have thought the Nottingham services will run fast via Masborough. Some peak calls might be possible though.

There was something in the Rotherham Advertiser the other about a study for rail in Rotherham. It acknowledged the town's poor connectivity and gave some options. One was to build a new station on the main line near Parkgate, another to double Holmes chord.

Neither of the new franchises seem to acknowledge this.

I have a ground-breaking plan for Network Rail. Why not have a station at Masbrough........

 

[Tetchytyke]

With regards to new EMU's on the Airedale/Wharfedale lines, do you think this will be a uniformed fleet or a mix of these and 333's?

If it's going to be all new units, what's likely to happen to the 333's?

I don't see how the 333s will be able to operate in a mixed fleet.

Judging by what is said for Doncaster, I expect that a small number of 333s may be kept by Arriva. The rest will go, possibly to Heathrow Express (if they still want them then) or somewhere else.

 

[bradders1983]

There was something in the Rotherham Advertiser the other about a study for rail in Rotherham. It acknowledged the town's poor connectivity and gave some options. One was to build a new station on the main line near Parkgate, another to double Holmes chord.

Neither of the new franchises seem to acknowledge this.

I have a ground-breaking plan for Network Rail. Why not have a station at Masbrough........

Because one isnt needed and it would just slow down the existing services that would have to call at a new station?