Northern franchise awarded to Arriva.

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'm guessing from what I have read so far that my service from West Allerton to Lime Street is going to be the same old stuff painted slightly differently every half an hour during the day?

Maybe less 142's but we seemed to get our fair share of 156's anyway.

I have emboldened part of your posting above to show how I first read it and wondered if this was part of a new Liverpool initiative to give work to out-of-work painters and a good way to use up all redundant stocks of paint.....

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Ha ha. I want to see a 142 painted up in DB colours or like a Berlin U Bahn.

I second the motion

 

[fowler9]

I have emboldened part of your posting above to show how I first read it and wondered if this was part of a new Liverpool initiative to give work to out-of-work painters and a good way to use up all redundant stocks of paint.....

Yeah I could have worded that better. Ha ha. No literature prizes for me.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I second the motion

Ha ha. It will happen one day. The staff in West Allerton are quality, they would get a job in any station in the world in my opinion. (No I am not one of them).

 

[JaJaWa]

Perhaps one of our gifted forum members will produce and post a visual representation of the new livery...but I do ask that it is not on one of "Newton Heath's Finest".

With no more yellow front ends from January, I presume it will look something like this (excuse the awful Photoshop!)

 

[G0ORC]

I've always thought a Nottingham to Glasgow via Leeds, Carlisle and Dumfries would be a pretty useful route, I think one of the open access companies were looking at that for a while.

Some of us can remember :-
1S24 2130 St Pancras - Glasgow
1M98 2130 Glasgow - Nottingham
1S68 0830(?) St Pancras - Glasgow
1M86 1100(?) Glasgow - Nottingham

and many variants on this theme over the years

all via the S&C and the GSW

 

[the sniper]

With no more yellow front ends from January, I presume it will look something like this (excuse the awful Photoshop!)

I honestly don't think just because the yellow ends are no longer required that it necessarily means they'll no longer feature on future liveries.

I actually predict a backlash against this change when more people on the ground actually become aware that it has happened. Maybe there's been more talk about it on the PWay side already, but I haven't heard or found anybody at work who has been aware of this change. Bit weird when theoretically in just over three months, for the first time in pretty much everyone's career, a midnight blue or ballast grey coloured killing machine could come flying at you at over 100+mph...

But this is rather off topic...

 

[GPR]

Yeah I could have worded that better. Ha ha. No literature prizes for me.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Ha ha. It will happen one day. The staff in West Allerton are quality, they would get a job in any station in the world in my opinion. (No I am not one of them).

They are great lads in West Allerton

 

[sprinterguy]

part of his degree course my youngest son spent 12 months at Sellafield; wasn't at all impressed "with the trains with the rubbish doors that kept breaking down" and started using his car instead. Since then, from what I've read in the various railway magazines the situation hasn't improved.

There were teething troubles when the class 37s were introduced to the route, and teething troubles when they were married up to the DBSOs to work in push-pull formation. Since then, I have seen no reports of major reliability issues with the locos or stock (beyond what you would expect to experience with Northern's units anyway) and certainly haven't experienced any on the several occasions when I have travelled on these trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What about benefits for staff, free travel ext.

Well my area of free travel is going to be greatly expanded.

More seriously though, I assume that the staff travel benefits for Arriva Northern staff will be the same as those offered to all staff working for Arriva TOCs: Free UK travel across the group on services operated by Northern, Crosscountry, Arriva Trains Wales, Chiltern, Grand Central, LOROL and the Tyne & Wear Metro. With the diminishment of the First Group empire, Arriva staff travel benefits have to be the best to be had on the railway, particularly for a North Easterner in exile living the West Midlands like myself!

 

[RichmondCommu]

There were teething troubles when the class 37s were introduced to the route, and teething troubles when they were married up to the DBSOs to work in push-pull formation. Since then, I have seen no reports of major reliability issues with the locos or stock (beyond what you would expect to experience with Northern's units anyway) and certainly haven't experienced any on the several occasions when I have travelled on these trains.

I'm on the train so don't have the magazine with me but the latest issue of Railway Magazine reported numerous substitutions involving class 142's and at least one loco failure in the last four weeks. I would argue that numerous substitute appearances of class 142's leads one to think that the class 37's aren't that reliable.

 

[Wavertreelad]

I honestly don't think just because the yellow ends are no longer required that it necessarily means they'll no longer feature on future liveries.

I actually predict a backlash against this change when more people on the ground actually become aware that it has happened. Maybe there's been more talk about it on the PWay side already, but I haven't heard or found anybody at work who has been aware of this change. Bit weird when theoretically in just over three months, for the first time in pretty much everyone's career, a midnight blue or ballast grey coloured killing machine could come flying at you at over 100+mph...

But this is rather off topic...

Could a compromise be the return of the yellow warning panel introduced in the 1960's prior to the full yellow end? It actually looked quite pleasing... but we are drifting off topic.

 

[TUC]

Wasn't a more frequent and extended hours service between Selby and York part of the Northern franchise specification? I can't see any reference to it in the announcements.

 

[ivanhoe]

I'm guessing from what I have read so far that my service from West Allerton to Lime Street is going to be the same old stuff painted slightly differently every half an hour during the day? Maybe less 142's but we seemed to get our fair share of 156's anyway.

It'll be the same colour as the 80 bus that passes near you. I foresee problems for you after a few orange squashes down town

 

[Haydn1971]

Has anyone run the fleet numbers against the expected number of 185's that get cascaded, how will the 170's from Scotrail fit into this too... Are we really expecting 283 factory fresh units or will that number include cascades from elsewhere ?

 

[66Yorks]

Is there a thread regarding this topic? I was unaware of the change.

I honestly don't think just because the yellow ends are no longer required that it necessarily means they'll no longer feature on future liveries.

I actually predict a backlash against this change when more people on the ground actually become aware that it has happened. Maybe there's been more talk about it on the PWay side already, but I haven't heard or found anybody at work who has been aware of this change. Bit weird when theoretically in just over three months, for the first time in pretty much everyone's career, a midnight blue or ballast grey coloured killing machine could come flying at you at over 100+mph...

But this is rather off topic...

 

[sprinterguy]

Is there a thread regarding this topic? I was unaware of the change.

One has just been set up, where I have also provided a link to the previous discussion of the topic:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2390217#post2390217
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Does this mean that Northern trains will become green and white?

We're starting to go over old ground already covered here, but the Arriva franchise announcement has stated:

Arriva will operate the franchise under a refreshed Northern brand

So I don't expect a huge change in livery (especially now that the website has been launched with a dark blue theme). My personal prediction is that they'll keep the blue, ditch the purple, and apply an approximation of the "Executive" livery used by Arriva Trains Wales in its' place.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Has anyone run the fleet numbers against the expected number of 185's that get cascaded, how will the 170's from Scotrail fit into this too... Are we really expecting 283 factory fresh units or will that number include cascades from elsewhere ?

It's 281, and as the franchise announcement stuff specifically mentions "281 new-build carriages" then I think we can safely assume that these will indeed by factory fresh and not cascaded from elsewhere.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Wasn't a more frequent and extended hours service between Selby and York part of the Northern franchise specification? I can't see any reference to it in the announcements.

The following is stated for the Hull to York corridor (via Selby):

Hull to York
Additional services will provide a full hourly service, giving 17 trains per day each way. The current service is irregular, with 10 trains per day one way and 11 the other.

Sundays
There will be an hourly service (13 trains per day each way, 5 more than today).

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How will the Nunthorpe services link into the Middlesbrough. Newcastle services?

Exactly the same as they do at present, I would have thought. Unless there's some sort of improvements specific to Nunthorpe (as opposed to the improvement to the Whitby line service in general) that I've overlooked.

 

[northwichcat]

Are we really expecting 283 factory fresh units or will that number include cascades from elsewhere ?

It's actually 281, not that it makes all that much difference.

It sounds like the 281 partly includes class 321/2/3 replacement with mentions of 6 car EMU services out of Leeds operated by new EMUs (which are currently operated by 4 car 333s), new or modern EMUs for Leeds-Doncaster and new EMUs for Hadfield, Blackpool and Windermere, so I imagine at least 90 of those 281 will be EMU vehicles. We know a minimum of 120 self-powered vehicles are required to meet the ITT so between 120 and 190 new DMU vehicles doesn't sound excessive.

It might be Arriva have planned to not take on all the 15xs and 17xs released by Scotrail and FGW so that electrification delays in other areas won't affect their plans.

 

[anti-pacer]

I am so happy at these proposals, and will be even happier if they come true.

I just hope the Northern travelling public look after these new and refurbished trains and keep them clean. I also hope Arriva will have on-train cleaners to keep standards up.

 

[swt_passenger]

I am so happy at these proposals, and will be even happier if they come true.

They are no longer proposals, at the stage we are now where the franchisee decision is made and published then they have to be considered firm plans. It is only because of the 10 day standstill period before contract signature that we haven't seen all the rolling stock order details in the form of manufacturer's PR.

 

[Albatross]

I am so happy at these proposals, and will be even happier if they come true.

I just hope the Northern travelling public look after these new and refurbished trains and keep them clean. I also hope Arriva will have on-train cleaners to keep standards up.

Can't help thinking that will be an issue. Tbf I think Northern did try and some of the refurbs were half decent but unfortunately a very small % of the people that use their services are just scum I'm afraid.

Sorry for branding people that but I do see these trains at the end of a usual days service and there seems to be zero respect for them.

 

[bradders1983]

One question I do have: someone earlier mentioned that they are having to wait between 10/15 mins to get off the Lincoln line and into Sheffield station. As far as I can make out, there will be at least one extra train per hour each way leaving the station to the north. Is there the capacity to handle the new extra trains?

 

[anti-pacer]

Can't help thinking that will be an issue. Tbf I think Northern did try and some of the refurbs were half decent but unfortunately a % of the people that use their services are just scum I'm afraid.

Sorry for branding people that but I do see these trains at the end of a usual days service and there seems to be zero respect for them.

Contrast these with LM services around the West Midlands County that are kept very clean.

The last Northern train I went on was revolting. Beer cans, takeaway packaging, crisp packets... you name it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Sorry for branding people that but I do see these trains at the end of a usual days service and there seems to be zero respect for them.

...not least from Northern, who scrimped and saved for years on internal cleaning and internal maintenance. It's got better in the last 18 months but I'll never forget the Heaton 156 I was on in the 2013/14 winter which had mouldy carpets and mouldy luggage racks.

There's no more litter on Northern trains than there was on the London Midland and FCC trains I used to take to work. The difference was they had cleaners tidying it up throughout the day but Northern don't or didn't, meaning it just piled up. Other than empty coffee cups and discarded Metros there's not been much damage. But the issue of litter has been rehashed on here by anti-pacer about a billion times.

There's also the issue that people will take less care over things that are neglected, and the 142s and 155s are in a pretty sorry state internally these days.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Contrast these with LM services around the West Midlands County that are kept very clean.

The last Northern train I went on was revolting. Beer cans, takeaway packaging, crisp packets... you name it.

And mucky windows, which just looks sloppy. You never see a VT or LM train with mucky windows.

 

[Tetchytyke]

You never see a VT or LM train with mucky windows.

Goodness I did, all the bloody time (especially the 321s), and if you look up "neglected" in the dictionary there's a picture of the inside of a London Midland 319.

The main issue with the mucky windows is with the 153s and 155s, which I'm led to believe is due to the bodyside shape meaning the carriage washing machines don't work properly on them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Goodness I did, all the bloody time (especially the 321s), and if you look up "neglected" in the dictionary there's a picture of the inside of a London Midland 319.

I finally got a ride on one of those (the 319/2) on Tuesday, and while it is a bit hotch-potch in terms of livery and interior, it certainly didn't give the impression of being poorly looked after, and was spotlessly clean as I have come to expect from LM. The 2+2 seating with generous spacing was appreciated, though I get the impression that people have turned away from that train due to unreliability and persistent short-forming because it was suspiciously quiet.

They have many, many faults, not least the inability to maintain the things properly on a technical level, but mucky trains is not a problem I have really experienced with LM. Northern, OTOH, is at present a picture of neglect in that regard.

 

[Y961 XBU]

Someone put the following post on another forum:

Arriva will be using a 'Northern' brand and a 'Northern Connect' brand, the latter being high specification services.

The Northern Connect routes will be:
Manchester Airport to Barrow (new build DMUs)
Manchester Airport to Windermere (new build EMUs)
Manchester Airport to Blackpool (new build EMUs)
Manchester Airport to Liverpool via Warrington (new build DMUs)
Chester to Leeds via Bradford (new build DMUs)
Liverpool to Leeds via Bradford (new build DMUs)
Manchester Airport to Leeds via Bradford (new build DMUs)
Leeds to Lincoln via Sheffield (new build DMUs)
Sheffield to Scarborough (new build DMUs)
Middlesbrough to Newcastle (refurbished 158s)
Newcastle to Carlisle (refurbished DMUs - 158s?)
York to Blackpool (new build DMUs)
Leeds to Nottingham (new build DMUs)

So it sounds like the new builds will be split between the North West and Yorkshire, with the North East getting cascaded 158s.

Does anyone know the Timescale on any of this or has any other info worth adding?

 

[bradders1983]

Someone put the following post on another forum:

Arriva will be using a 'Northern' brand and a 'Northern Connect' brand, the latter being high specification services.

The Northern Connect routes will be:
Manchester Airport to Barrow (new build DMUs)
Manchester Airport to Windermere (new build EMUs)
Manchester Airport to Blackpool (new build EMUs)
Manchester Airport to Liverpool via Warrington (new build DMUs)
Chester to Leeds via Bradford (new build DMUs)
Liverpool to Leeds via Bradford (new build DMUs)
Manchester Airport to Leeds via Bradford (new build DMUs)
Leeds to Lincoln via Sheffield (new build DMUs)
Sheffield to Scarborough (new build DMUs)
Middlesbrough to Newcastle (refurbished 158s)
Newcastle to Carlisle (refurbished DMUs - 158s?)
York to Blackpool (new build DMUs)
Leeds to Nottingham (new build DMUs)

So it sounds like the new builds will be split between the North West and Yorkshire, with the North East getting cascaded 158s.

Does anyone know the Timescale on any of this or has any other info worth adding?

Isnt the one in bold Bradford to Nottingham rather than Leeds to Nottingham?

 

[sprinterguy]

So it sounds like the new builds will be split between the North West and Yorkshire, with the North East getting cascaded 158s.

Does anyone know the Timescale on any of this or has any other info worth adding?

In terms of the new build units, I believe that the following has already been posted, sourced from the Northern/TPE franchise timeline:

End of 2018: 92 new-build carriages (net increase of 19 carriages)
End of 2019: 163 new-build carriages introduced; all pacers removed; train refurbishment programme complete
End of 2020: 26 new-build carriages introduced

 

[Stats]

The Middlesbrough to Newcastle and Newcastle to Carlisle will be a single through service, not two separate services

 

[Masbroughlad]

Does Rotherham Central get any improvement in services from either new franchisee? Higher frequency? New destinations etc?