Northern franchise awarded to Arriva.

[Bletchleyite]

What about Class 230, then...? New class but old trains

I'd say yes, but it doesn't fit the services concerned - while I do unlike some think they are perfectly suitable for local trains, they are clearly completely *unsuitable* for premium expresses.

 

[JaJaWa]

What about Class 230, then...? New class but old trains

Surprised the D Trains hadn't been mentioned yet. Considering they're an "Arriva innovation", they will surely be used, at least for trials?

 

[47802]

What about Class 230, then...? New class but old trains

I don't think a 230 would meet the criteria of 'New' on a Northern Connect service, maybe they stick another transit engine on the roof to run the Aircon

 

[ainsworth74]

Yes, I think there is a good chance there is a distinction here, and "new" means "not old" i.e. "not Class 15x".

Which is fine as far as I'm concerned! I like new trains but I like refurbished 'old' trains just as much. Even what's been done to the 319s is pretty good to be frank and that's little more than just tarting them up a bit.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

All the Northern Connect stations will be staffed, with catering and free wi-fi specified.

I wonder if they are intending to model the booking offices on Merseyrails M-to-go locations. Combining the shop and the booking office into one would be the best way to guarantee the availability of refreshments. Leaving it to the market by offering franchised or private catering operations at each location could result in a breach of contract if there was no interest from the private sector.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which is fine as far as I'm concerned! I like new trains but I like refurbished 'old' trains just as much. Even what's been done to the 319s is pretty good to be frank and that's little more than just tarting them up a bit.

As Arriva are involved I would expect to see the ATW interior on the Class 158s used. It's pretty good, and it satisfies the Northern Regional spec (sockets etc - no wifi but this is easy enough to add without changing anything else). Quite possibly done by the Crewe workshops like I think this job was.

 

[Darandio]

Which is fine as far as I'm concerned! I like new trains but I like refurbished 'old' trains just as much. Even what's been done to the 319s is pretty good to be frank and that's little more than just tarting them up a bit.

Reckon we will see a 158 down our end on one of the early morning Newcastle services? I know they aren't coast services, but still.......

 

[Bevan Price]

I still remain to be convinced that there is NO difference in what it describes as 'New' and 'Brand New' and that the 'New' might mean new to Northern and end up being 185's or 170's, not that I would be unhappy with that if that was the case.

We will have to wait to find out exactly what new trains we get. My hopes are that they do not squander valuable space by providing any 1st class areas - that will negate a lot of the increased capacity.

I also doubt the value of Northern getting any 185s (other than as a possible temporary solution until new trains are built - for example, a class 185 has a lot fewer seats than the 3 car 158s used on many Blackpool - Leeds/York services.

I would also hope that they can raise speed limits to, say, at least 75 mph on the Atherton route, and elsewhere (e.g. Huyton - St. Helens - Wigan), in order to improve journey times and get greater benefit from electrification.

My home town, St. Helens, seems to lose out a bit from the proposals, with the current 2 electric services per hour to Manchester being replaced by 1 emu & 1 dmu per hour, and apparently not getting a stop on any of the Trans Pennine services**. (For the benefit of non-locals, St. Helens has a greater population than Wigan.)

(** - Although from the map, the 3 per day Liverpool - Scotland services seem to be routed via St. Helens Central.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

All the Northern Connect stations will be staffed, with catering and free wi-fi specified.

I wonder if they are intending to model the booking offices on Merseyrails M-to-go locations. Combining the shop and the booking office into one would be the best way to guarantee the availability of refreshments. Leaving it to the market by offering franchised or private catering operations at each location could result in a breach of contract if there was no interest from the private sector.

Possibly, though I personally don't see that model as particularly good - it doesn't do either role very well. It could perhaps be used for stations where a commercial refreshment counter is not viable, but based on South East experience I expect it will be. Worth noting that I don't think opening hours for the refreshments are specified - they may well be morning peak only like many in the South East.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

No mention of the peak Ellesmere Port to Manchester Victoria services. Hope they are still on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No mention of the peak Ellesmere Port to Manchester Victoria services. Hope they are still on.

Much as I do approve (and at the same time am surprised) - why are they making such a huge thing of the Ormskirk-Preston improvements? It's hardly as if it is an important line to the franchise. Does someone important in Government live along it, perhaps?

 

[ainsworth74]

Reckon we will see a 158 down our end on one of the early morning Newcastle services? I know they aren't coast services, but still.......

I was wondering about that. Presumably all the crews in the North East are going to end up signing them due to the interworking so I could easily see a 158 coming down to Saltburn to run the service back to Newcastle via Darlington. In fact doesn't that unit then form a Carlisle service?

As Arriva are involved I would expect to see the ATW interior on the Class 158s used. It's pretty good, and it satisfies the Northern Regional spec (sockets etc - no wifi but this is easy enough to add without changing anything else). Quite possibly done by the Crewe workshops like I think this job was.

Yes those interiors are excellent and I, for one, would be perfectly happy with them!

 

[kelv]

anyone any idea what will happen with recruitment that's being done by Northern Rail ?

I sat online tests this week and a questionnaire type one today, next stage if I got through was Interview on 21st. Will they still go ahead training folk or will they now be scrapped for Arriva to sort out themselves ?

 

[northwichcat]

Yes, I think there is a good chance there is a distinction here, and "new" means "not old" i.e. "not Class 15x".

We do know how many brand new carriages they'll be.

Arriva Rail North Limited will run the Northern franchise – which is the second largest in the UK and operates regional and commuter services across the region – from April 2016 until March 2025. The operator will oversee the complete removal of the outdated and unpopular Pacers by the end of 2019, and will invest £400 million in 281 brand new air-conditioned carriages – more than double the minimum required in the government’s invitation to tender.

We don't exactly know how many will be for non-electrified lines at present.

I have also observed in some instances the interactive map: http://maps.dft.gov.uk/northern/index.html says brand new e.g. brand new EMUs for Leeds to Skipton/Ilkley and in others it says new e.g. new EMUs for Manchester Airport to Blackpool. It might be that's unintentional but then it might be intentional we don't know for certain.

One thing we do know is the 'Northern Connect' services in the North East will get refurbished 158s, so if 'new' on other routes means refurbished DMUs then why not say so?

For Leeds to Doncaster it actually says

Existing electric trains will be replaced by more modern ones and/or new trains. This will also benefit the intermediate stations along the route

That could allow either cascaded 333s to go on to Leeds-Doncaster or brand new EMUs. Maybe that's partly why nothing has been said about rolling stock for Manchester to Crewe/Stoke, they've not made a final decision about whether the 333s will remain in Yorkshire or not.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I would also hope that they can raise speed limits to, say, at least 75 mph on the Atherton route, and elsewhere (e.g. Huyton - St. Helens - Wigan), in order to improve journey times and get greater benefit from electrification.

My home town, St. Helens, seems to lose out a bit from the proposals, with the current 2 electric services per hour to Manchester being replaced by 1 emu & 1 dmu per hour, and apparently not getting a stop on any of the Trans Pennine services**. (For the benefit of non-locals, St. Helens has a greater population than Wigan.)

I think St Helens Jn and Newton le Willows are due to be served by one or other of the 2xTPE services to Victoria.
Given that there is to be a Liverpool-Bradford Northern Connect service I would expect that to stop en route too.
The Chester-Leeds service should also stop at NLW (St Helens borough, with new parkway facilities!).

I personally think the 7th Wigan-Manchester service will go via Chat Moss not Atherton, also the Windermere service (they might be one and the same).
I don't think there is enough capacity via Salford Crescent for another service that way.
Nothing about Halton Curve either, but maybe that will be an overlay when the construction date is confirmed.

 

[Iskra]

We do know how many brand new carriages they'll be.



We don't exactly know how many will be for non-electrified lines at present.

I have also observed in some instances the interactive map: http://maps.dft.gov.uk/northern/index.html says brand new e.g. brand new EMUs for Leeds to Skipton/Ilkley and in others it says new e.g. new EMUs for Manchester Airport to Blackpool. It might be that's unintentional but then it might be intentional we don't know for certain.

One thing we do know is the 'Northern Connect' services in the North East will get refurbished 158s, so if 'new' on other routes means refurbished DMUs then why not say so?

For Leeds to Doncaster it actually says



That could allow either cascaded 333s to go on to Leeds-Doncaster or brand new EMUs. Maybe that's partly why nothing has been said about rolling stock for Manchester to Crewe/Stoke, they've not made a final decision about whether the 333s will remain in Yorkshire or not.

333's have to remain in West Yorkshire until 2020.

 

[northwichcat]

anyone any idea what will happen with recruitment that's being done by Northern Rail ?

I sat online tests this week and a questionnaire type one today, next stage if I got through was Interview on 21st. Will they still go ahead training folk or will they now be scrapped for Arriva to sort out themselves ?

If someone's left/leaving then it will still be down to Northern Rail to replace them but Northern won't be able to employ additional staff.

 

[Gareth Marston]

As Arriva are involved I would expect to see the ATW interior on the Class 158s used. It's pretty good, and it satisfies the Northern Regional spec (sockets etc - no wifi but this is easy enough to add without changing anything else). Quite possibly done by the Crewe workshops like I think this job was.

sockets have been rather hopeless and the air con wasn't touched but as a refresh not too bad and of course you wont have the garden shed engineering cabinet for the etcs stuff like we do!

 

[Lemmy99uk]

anyone any idea what will happen with recruitment that's being done by Northern Rail ?

I sat online tests this week and a questionnaire type one today, next stage if I got through was Interview on 21st. Will they still go ahead training folk or will they now be scrapped for Arriva to sort out themselves ?

All the recruitment currently underway is in line with the direct award agreement with the DfT.

Northern would not cancel vacancies and leave Arriva with a staff shortage at franchise start.

 

[Starmill]

Gates to be installed at 8 Northern stations - I wonder if that's all new ones or it includes Manchester Pic / Crewe / Stoke on Trent etc.

 

[Darandio]

I was wondering about that. Presumably all the crews in the North East are going to end up signing them due to the interworking so I could easily see a 158 coming down to Saltburn to run the service back to Newcastle via Darlington. In fact doesn't that unit then form a Carlisle service?

Yeah, I believe it is.

 

[kelv]

If someone's left/leaving then it will still be down to Northern Rail to replace them but Northern won't be able to employ additional staff.

They were advertising for 6 (3 Picc 3 Victoria) I think, so they must've been identified as being required by someone for whatever reason.
Be just my luck this to get through the tests and then it be scrapped. The training possibly wouldn't be finished before the handover to Arriva.

 

[ainsworth74]

Yeah, I believe it is.

Well depending on what the timetable looks like then I wouldn't be surprised if a 158 turns up from time to time then!

 

[northwichcat]

333's have to remain in West Yorkshire until 2020.

Which could be precisely why Arriva haven't made a long term decision on them. They had to submit a train plan for December 17 and one for December 19 as part of their bid so the 333s will be in the December 19 train plan but the lease could expire very soon afterwards.

 

[Bungle965]

sockets have been rather hopeless and the air con wasn't touched but as a refresh not too bad and of course you wont have the garden shed engineering cabinet for the etcs stuff like we do!

Although i have only had a few journey`s on the refurbished 158`s i have found the sockets always to be working!
Maybe i was lucky.
Sam

 

[kelv]

All the recruitment currently underway is in line with the direct award agreement with the DfT.

Northern would not cancel vacancies and leave Arriva with a staff shortage at franchise start.

I'm liking this post.

*Puts bleach away.

 

[Hophead]

Which could be precisely why Arriva haven't made a long term decision on them. They had to submit a train plan for December 17 and one for December 19 as part of their bid so the 333s will be in the December 19 train plan but the lease could expire very soon afterwards.

I'm pretty certain 333s don't 'have to be' operated in Yorkshire till 2020. Whatever legal agreement may be in place can easily be bought out, not least by making an offer that can't be refused (or at least would be unlikely to be refused): you know those 20-year-old trains that you're determined to keep? Well, how about we swap them for some brand new ones instead? Besides, what services would the 333s even operate if replaced on the Aire Valley routes? They can't all run the Doncaster route.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

What about Leeds - Doncaster - York - Newcastle semi fasts?

Leeds - Manchester?

Hull - York (once they've done some wiring)

 

[northwichcat]

I'm pretty certain 333s don't 'have to be' operated in Yorkshire till 2020. Whatever legal agreement may be in place can easily be bought out, not least by making an offer that can't be refused (or at least would be unlikely to be refused): you know those 20-year-old trains that you're determined to keep? Well, how about we swap them for some brand new ones instead? Besides, what services would the 333s even operate if replaced on the Aire Valley routes? They can't all run the Doncaster route.

I think you're right. They have to lease the 333s until mid-2020 but Metro aren't going to complain if they are replaced by something newer and better and while a few sets would be ideal for Doncaster, it might make more sense to cascade them all to another area. They're owned by Angel Trains so they are sponsored by Metro opposed to belonging to Metro.

 

[danielnez1]

Is it just me or does the typeface for the new Northern Banner logo look a lot like a lighter variant of the old Northern Spirit logo?