TPE franchise awarded to First

[misterredmist]

It will be interesting to see the calling patterns of the TPE services in the North-East. Surely the new service has to include improvements for Chester-le-Street (every 2 hours at the moment) - the Newcastle-Manchester Airport trains calling there would improve this to hourly.

Hopefully the new TPE trains will improve connections in Northumberland/Borders as well. At the moment from 08:00-18:00 there are 0 trains Alnmouth-Morpeth, 1 each way Berwick-Morpeth, 1 southbound and 4 northbound Berwick-Alnmouth and 3 each way Dunbar-Berwick (as well as a 2-3 Dunbar-Alnmouth/Morpeth, though there is less demand for these).

In each case, changing adds around 60 minutes to journeys of between 20-30 minutes, so this could really improve local connections and boost rail commuting, shopping and other leisure in the region.

Yes, CLS and the Northumberland / Border regions could certainly do with more calls to open them up to more visitors by rail

 

[Viscount702]

Just a thought could the new stock be 22 x 6 cars and 22 x 4 cars.

 

[43074]

First put it on their Press Release as December 16.

Their press release says:

Direct trains from Newcastle to/from Manchester Airport reinstated in December 2016 with two trains per hour service to Newcastle in December 2017

Which suggests there will be more direct trains (of an unspecified number) from December 2016, with the hourly service being introduced from December 2017... Nevertheless, it will still require more stock, unless it's run in marginal time so TPE can say ''we've re-introduced direct trains to the Airport from Newcastle'' in their PR.

 

[northwichcat]

Just a thought could the new stock be 22 x 6 cars and 22 x 4 cars.

As TPE have won with a bid saying 5 car trains, they can't now order 4 car trains unless DfT agrees to the change.

Although, as TPE will become a premium paying franchise opposed to a subsided one it will probably make it easier for them to call the shots if in the future lengthening 5 car trains to 6 or 7 carriages is looked at.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Which suggests there will be more direct trains (of an unspecified number) from December 2016, with the hourly service being introduced from December 2017... Nevertheless, it will still require more stock, unless it's run in marginal time so TPE can say ''we've re-introduced direct trains to the Airport from Newcastle'' in their PR.

I should be more careful reading the press releases. After all we know when Virgin announced under 2 hour journey times between Manchester and London what it actually meant is one morning southbound train took just under 2 hours and the rest all took over 2 hours.

 

[Haydn1971]

But go to MKC

I'd rather not

So I don't think most people do do what you do; they take the fastest train.

I never said most people do, your building a straw-man argument.

In the NW, people don't currently have a choice but to jump on a TPE service, because the northern services offer a poor alternative. Start improving the alternative by creating a more flexible semi-fast service and you create opportunity for choice. The current TPE services serve two different markets with one train type, which isn't really that great for long distance and is a bit too full for short haul trips - it's the worst of both worlds, having different trains opens up opportunity to better service each market with a better service, for example, does the Edinburgh-Manchester Airport train really have to call at Wigan and Oxford Road ? No, not really, does a semi-fast, yes, absolutely.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
8 pages and no mention of the 442's - is this a record ?

 

[Viscount702]

As TPE have won with a bid saying 5 car trains, they can't now order 4 car trains unless DfT agrees to the change.

Although, as TPE will become a premium paying franchise opposed to a subsided one it will probably make it easier for them to call the shots if in the future lengthening 5 car trains to 6 or 7 carriages is looked at.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I should be more careful reading the press releases. After all we know when Virgin announced under 2 hour journey times between Manchester and London what it actually meant is one morning southbound train took just under 2 hours and the rest all took over 2 hours.

I haven't read everything but does it actually say 44 x 5 car trains.

On the Airport - Newcastle on the First Site it says in one place 2017 and in another 2016

 

[northwichcat]

I haven't read everything but does it actually say 44 x 5 car trains.

Looking again I'm not sure it does, I think the suggestion about whether they could be an add-on to the AT300 order made my think that they had said 5 car.

 

[43074]

The press release says:

220 brand new vehicles will be introduced by 2019 providing an additional 13m seats a year. These state of the art intercity trains will be faster and more reliable with more seats and luggage space. Journey times will be reduced as we realise the benefits of these new trains and the Government’s investment in electrification. The remaining vehicles will be refurbished to the same standard.

and

44 new state of the art intercity trains, 220 new carriages introduced by 2019

So we have 44 trains consisting of 220 vehicles - which doesn't leave too many options, either all 5-cars or a mix of 4- and 6-cars.

 

[Bletchleyite]

for example, does the Edinburgh-Manchester Airport train really have to call at Wigan and Oxford Road ? No, not really

Does it *have* to, no. Should it? Certainly the former if it runs that way - it is after all an InterCity service calling at an InterCity station. It could of course call to pick up only (northbound) though.

 

[47802]

The press release says:

and


So we have 44 trains consisting of 220 vehicles - which doesn't leave too many options, either all 5-cars or a mix of 4- and 6-cars.

Well Mr Miles suggests that his sources are telling him AT300's and given he was right about who won the franchises, in which case anything other than 5 car would be unlikely unless they are being radically modified from the current build.

 

[Camden]

Unless I'm mistaken, though, Liverpool is not losing any services to Manchester as part of this?

Trains from Newcastle-Liverpool pass through Victoria. To get to Piccadilly or the Airport, people from the NE currently have to either use the Tram/Bus in Manchester or change at York/Leeds/Huddersfield - all busy stations and busy services.

From a North-East (though I do stress, anecdotal) perspective, people would much rather have an hourly train service to Liverpool and an hourly service to Piccadilly/Airport than two trains an hour to Liverpool.

Why should it be about "losing"? Why not about "gaining?"

It's an opportunity to give a third TPE service to Liverpool, connecting it more frequently to the major cities of the north. Giving it and all the other cities it links in the north more frequent access to both Manchester and Manchester Airport at the same time.

Your anecdotal evidence would suggest that "people" would rather avoid being able to get to Liverpool easily, half hourly, in favour of a direct service to a facility over a hundred and fifty miles away which they might use once a year or less and which most people won't use at all. At the expense of intercity (and indeed international) connectivity for one of the UK's largest major cities. Even if your anecdotal perspective is correct, it shouldn't figure. It's a nonsense. What about "anecdotally" what the 1.5 million people in Liverpool might want?

Rationalising the services through Manchester, and local services to Manchester Airport, is a lost opportunity.

 

[43074]

Well Mr Miles suggests that his sources are telling him AT300's and given he was right about who won the franchises.

I'm not questioning Tony Miles, but even so there's no reason (technically speaking) why AT300s couldn't be formed as 4- or 6-cars surely?

 

[47802]

I'm not questioning Tony Miles, but even so there's no reason (technically speaking) why AT300s couldn't be formed as 4- or 6-cars surely?

Depends if you think 1880 hp is enough for a 4 car AT300, or Hitachi substancially modify one of the driving trailers to carry an engine, I doubt they will be anything other than 5 car, A 5 car 26m AT300 will be similar in capacity to 2 x 185.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm not questioning Tony Miles, but even so there's no reason (technically speaking) why AT300s couldn't be formed as 4- or 6-cars surely?

I don't think you can have a 4-car AT300, not bi-mode anyway.
Not all the vehicles can have diesel rafts.

 

[43074]

I don't think you can have a 4-car AT300, not bi-mode anyway.
Not all the vehicles can have diesel rafts.

Oh right, didn't know that. Anyway, back to TPE...

 

[cuccir]

Why should it be about "losing"? Why not about "gaining?"

It's an opportunity to give a third TPE service to Liverpool, connecting it more frequently to the major cities of the north. Giving it and all the other cities it links in the north more frequent access to both Manchester and Manchester Airport at the same time.

Your anecdotal evidence would suggest that "people" would rather avoid being able to get to Liverpool easily, half hourly, in favour of a direct service to a facility over a hundred and fifty miles away which they might use once a year or less and which most people won't use at all. At the expense of intercity (and indeed international) connectivity for one of the UK's largest major cities. Even if your anecdotal perspective is correct, it shouldn't figure. It's a nonsense. What about "anecdotally" what the 1.5 million people in Liverpool might want?

Rationalising the services through Manchester, and local services to Manchester Airport, is a lost opportunity.

As noted, it's not just the service to Manchester Airport that is being added, but eased journeys to Cheshire, Staffordshire, Shopshire, North Wales, North Derbyshire and parts of Lancashire.

So yes - I think that adding direct services between stations that currently lack them and which increases connectivity between huge regions of the country is preferable to doubling up an already existing service.

 

[Brian Aylott]

So presumably circa 20x 185s retained and 37x 185s and the 350s surplus?

First state-:
"44 new state of the art intercity trains, 220 new carriages introduced by 2019
Fleet size increases by two-thirds, with over 70% of it new"

This means that about 90 other 'carriages' are to be retained
If 20 x 185s (60) vehicles are to be retained what are the 30 others?

I am getting a headache trying to sort this out and it could well be that my maths has failed me - my excuse is that I am very old

Brian

 

[Camden]

As noted, it's not just the service to Manchester Airport that is being added, but eased journeys to Cheshire, Staffordshire, Shopshire, North Wales, North Derbyshire and parts of Lancashire.

So yes - I think that adding direct services between stations that currently lack them and which increases connectivity between huge regions of the country is preferable to doubling up an already existing service.

Those journeys aren't in place of the half hourly Liverpool to Newcastle service or any third Liverpool TPE service, and would be totally unaffected.

Assuming you're not just babbling because you're on the illogical side of an argument, you need to post comments about those services on the Northern thread.

 

[swt_passenger]

How does the decision to have TPE running an extra service between Newcastle and Edinburgh affect the various proposals discussed over the last couple of years for the Scotrail franchise to extend a semifast service to Newcastle?

I'm assuming as a first guess that the two are mutually exclusive?

 

[43074]

So presumably circa 20x 185s retained and 37x 185s and the 350s surplus?

First state-:
"44 new state of the art intercity trains, 220 new carriages introduced by 2019
Fleet size increases by two-thirds, with over 70% of it new"

This means that about 90 other 'carriages' are to be retained
If 20 x 185s (60) vehicles are to be retained what are the 30 others?

I am getting a headache trying to sort this out and it could well be that my maths has failed me - my excuse is that I am very old

Brian

So: if circa 70% (220 vehicles) of the TPE fleet will be new, that assumes the TPE fleet will be approximately 315 vehicles, so as you have found that's a surplus of roughly 90 vehicles. That equates to 30 3-car units.

Let's assume:
8 trains to work Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes
Extra Sheffield strengthening would need 4 extra units
Manchester Piccadilly - Hull service needs 5 units
Lets assume 3 units will be used to lengthen some peak services.
That's at least 20 trains likely to be 185s (or similar).

Perhaps the shortfall could be for the Leeds - Manchester Piccadilly via Guide Bridge semi-fast services, so it isn't totally unrealistic that TPE would retain 30 185s. Alternatively, some 387s might fit the above after electrification perhaps?

 

[route:oxford]

How does the decision to have TPE running an extra service between Newcastle and Edinburgh affect the various proposals discussed over the last couple of years for the Scotrail franchise to extend a semifast service to Newcastle?

I'm assuming as a first guess that the two are mutually exclusive?

It's unlikely.

Shame that the TPE services will only go as far as Edinburgh or Glasgow though. A few a day reaching Stirling, Perth or Dundee once the knitting is up would add value.

 

[Pumbaa]

How does the decision to have TPE running an extra service between Newcastle and Edinburgh affect the various proposals discussed over the last couple of years for the Scotrail franchise to extend a semifast service to Newcastle?



I'm assuming as a first guess that the two are mutually exclusive?

The next question is how do those paths affect the desired paths of VTEC, Alliance and First? Id wager that parts of those are mutually exclusive.

 

[swt_passenger]

The next question is how do those paths affect the desired paths of VTEC, Alliance and First? Id wager that parts of those are mutually exclusive.

You'd have to assume so, but if they have all decided on 125 mph units of some sort, shouldn't they be able to flight the services in the same way the WCML(S) operates?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

How does the decision to have TPE running an extra service between Newcastle and Edinburgh affect the various proposals discussed over the last couple of years for the Scotrail franchise to extend a semifast service to Newcastle?
I'm assuming as a first guess that the two are mutually exclusive?

Is there actually a demand for 4tph York-Newcastle-Edinburgh?
It will eventually be 2xVTEC, 1xXC and 1xTP.
It also provides a direct service from Huddersfield to Edinburgh and doubles Leeds-Edinburgh.
But I'm wondering if this is not more about making a "nice map" for TPE services than actual demand.

 

[Iskra]

Is there actually a demand for 4tph York-Newcastle-Edinburgh?
It will eventually be 2xVTEC, 1xXC and 1xTP.
It also provides a direct service from Huddersfield to Edinburgh and doubles Leeds-Edinburgh.
But I'm wondering if this is not more about making a "nice map" for TPE services than actual demand.

Having used the 0710 VTEC Leeds-Edinburgh (Aberdeen), I believe there is a strong market for an improved Leeds-Edinburgh service (and more direct Leeds-Newcastle services), so I think it will do well. And the added competition is healthy.

 

[ag51ruk]

First state-:
"44 new state of the art intercity trains, 220 new carriages introduced by 2019
Fleet size increases by two-thirds, with over 70% of it new"

This means that about 90 other 'carriages' are to be retained
If 20 x 185s (60) vehicles are to be retained what are the 30 others?

I am getting a headache trying to sort this out and it could well be that my maths has failed me - my excuse is that I am very old

Brian

On the First website it says 78% of the fleet will be new - if 220 vehicles is 78%, that makes the total fleet size c280, so only 60 vehicles retained

Edit - misread the graphic, it's 72% new which makes total fleet 305 vehicles, so c85 retained

 

[ajdunlop]

Lots of discussion about the length of the new trains but where will these trains actually be able to run at 125mph? Surely none of the North Pennine route and not the West Coast Mainline unless they have tilt. That leaves bits of the East Coast.

 

[Iskra]

Lots of discussion about the length of the new trains but where will these trains actually be able to run at 125mph? Surely none of the North Pennine route and not the West Coast Mainline unless they have tilt. That leaves bits of the East Coast.

Can't they do 125mph between Preston and close to Lancaster on the WCML? Also, even if they can only do 110, that's 10mph faster than a 185.

 

[800001]

Is there actually a demand for 4tph York-Newcastle-Edinburgh?
It will eventually be 2xVTEC, 1xXC and 1xTP.
It also provides a direct service from Huddersfield to Edinburgh and doubles Leeds-Edinburgh.
But I'm wondering if this is not more about making a "nice map" for TPE services than actual demand.

Every time I have travelled from Edinburgh to Darlington, in either direction nearly all services have been either full, or only few seats vacant, that includes services during the day, not just in the peak

 

[387star]

Without trawling through the two threads struggling to find the main improvements

Will tpe keep the whole 185 fleet?nwhat about 350s
Will virgin voyagers continue to run to scotland or go to crosscountry as a result of new tpe trains?

Will the first brand go?

What will happen to the 442s and surplus 319s especially if northern getting new electric trains.l assume no 442s for tpe