TPE franchise awarded to First

[Stats]

To be fair, all we know at this stage is five car, diesel and a max speed of 125mph. Every manufacturer could build that.

I am not sure whether any are diesel. There are 12 EMUs (60 carriages) in service by end of 2019 on Anglo-Scottish routes and 19 bi-modes (95 carriages) to be introduced on services via Newcastle by end of 2020.
New trains start to enter service by end of 2017 to enable additional services to Edinburgh, Hull and Scarborough.

 

[thenorthern]

Not necessarily. Note it's likely the same type of trains will likely run on the ECML where they'll be no benefit of having a tilt. Virgin used to use 220s on Manchester-Scotland services which could only get up to 110mph on that route but could run at 125mph on other routes they operated on.

Good point although I reckon that FTPE would explore introducing tilt enabled 125 mph stock given the infrastructure is already there.

It's not aimed at Liverpool-Edinburgh passengers. It's aimed at regional journeys, and then connecting Liverpool/Manchester and Yorkshire/Newcastle and Edinburgh to Newcastle/Yorkshire.

XC and VTEC are not providing adequate Leeds-Edinburgh capacity (it's actually pathetic). Any additional competition will reduce prices, so is positive. Currently VTEC don't feel they need to compete with TPE or XC on price in the North East as their trains are packed so people choose VTEC for a nicer journey.

There is going to be a new service to Newcastle from Leeds and Manchester bringing the total up to 2 per hour which should significantly help capacity.

Given that Alliance GNER are looking to also introduce another service between Newcastle and Edinburgh and VTEC I reckon that the trains will end up carting fresh air about after a while.

 

[hwl]

I am not sure whether any are diesel. There are 12 EMUs (60 carriages) in service by end of 2019 on Anglo-Scottish routes and 19 bi-modes (95 carriages) to be introduced on services via Newcastle by end of 2020.
New trains start to enter service by end of 2017 to enable additional services to Edinburgh, Hull and Scarborough.

How about ordering a fleet with uniform bodyshells but a mix of EMU or Hybrids (what could end up running on just OHLE when completed).

Presumably Bombardier, CAF, Siemens as well as Hitachi that everyone is assuming have suitable products. Which manufacturers could supply the units in those time frames especially the initial batch for the end of 2017 which might be tricky for Bombardier, Hitachi & Siemens given their order books. Given other recent news add Alstom to the list but do they have a suitable product?

 

[Stats]

Given that Alliance GNER are looking to also introduce another service between Newcastle and Edinburgh and VTEC I reckon that the trains will end up carting fresh air about after a while.

Alliance is not the only OAO having applied for services between Edinburgh, Newcastle and Kings Cross. FirstGroup have as well. A decision won't be made until the new year on whether VTEC get the paths for their franchised services, or Alliance's Edinburgh application, FirstGroup's Edinburgh application or Alliance's Yorkshire and Cleethorpes application gets approved. Now we have FirstGroup's TPE additional ECML services to throw in to the mix!

 

[cuccir]

A lot of the devil is in the detail for the services north of Newcastle, but as I noted previously there's a lot of untapped demand I think for a stopping service linking Morpeth-Alnmouth-Berwick in particular. If the services do this, then I think they'll have a healthy use; if they don't, it would seem to somewhat replicate what XC/VTEC are currently doing.

I was surprised to see critical comments about the reintroduction of a Manchester Airport service from Newcastle; anecdotally, these are sorely missed and would be much preferred over a train to Liverpool. The return of regular services to Piccadilly will also be welcome to ease journeys to Wales, Staffordshire, etc. I think this is preferable to having 2 trains an hour to Liverpool!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Alliance is not the only OAO having applied for services between Edinburgh, Newcastle and Kings Cross. FirstGroup have as well. A decision won't be made until the new year on whether VTEC get the paths for their franchised services, or Alliance's Edinburgh application, FirstGroup's Edinburgh application or Alliance's Yorkshire and Cleethorpes application gets approved. Now we have FirstGroup's TPE additional ECML services to throw in to the mix!

Might First suggest their London services could portion-work with them, thus needing no more paths?

 

[TheEscapist_]

More trains between Edinburgh and Morpeth is great news, more are needed. Currently there no direct ones between 1010 and 1605! I just hope First stop outsourcing most staff now and they get customer service staff at Edinburgh.

 

[Camden]

A lot of the devil is in the detail for the services north of Newcastle, but as I noted previously there's a lot of untapped demand I think for a stopping service linking Morpeth-Alnmouth-Berwick in particular. If the services do this, then I think they'll have a healthy use; if they don't, it would seem to somewhat replicate what XC/VTEC are currently doing.

I was surprised to see critical comments about the reintroduction of a Manchester Airport service from Newcastle; anecdotally, these are sorely missed and would be much preferred over a train to Liverpool. The return of regular services to Piccadilly will also be welcome to ease journeys to Wales, Staffordshire, etc. I think this is preferable to having 2 trains an hour to Liverpool!

All Liverpool trains pass through Manchester... offering connections including for trains every few minutes to Manchester Airport. It's not either or with a Liverpool to Newcastle train, you get both benefits, it's just an either or with an Airport terminating one (where these two cities will now only have one hourly connection to each other). The impact is most keenly felt on the western side. Not good.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

How about ordering a fleet with uniform bodyshells but a mix of EMU or Hybrids (what could end up running on just OHLE when completed).
Presumably Bombardier, CAF, Siemens as well as Hitachi that everyone is assuming have suitable products. Which manufacturers could supply the units in those time frames especially the initial batch for the end of 2017 which might be tricky for Bombardier, Hitachi & Siemens given their order books. Given other recent news add Alstom to the list but do they have a suitable product?

Only Hitachi has a UK-compatible bi-mode ready to order (in fact, First has an option on further AT300s with its order for the Plymouth GWR routes).
Hitachi will also have maintenance infrastructure on the ground at Doncaster and Craigentinny from the VTEC IEP orders (and the Scotrail AT200s).
Stadler might figure somewhere, as they have a bi-mode design, but more likely as a variant for Northern's new trains.

PS Another TPE factoid - no mention of extending services south of Manchester Airport to Crewe (an option in the ITT).

 

[Camden]

Bi modes would surely be much more expensive both to buy and maintain?

What does this mean for fares in the north?

 

[northwichcat]

What does this mean for fares in the north?

Regulated fares are capped at the government's formulas but as we've seen already non-regulated fares can increase a lot more and peak time restrictions can change without causing the government's promise to be broken.

 

[IanXC]

(in fact, First has an option on further AT300s with its order for the Plymouth GWR routes).

That is a very good point - does anyone knowboff hand how many options, and how this might possibly fit into the TPE stock delivery dates?

 

[northwichcat]

That is a very good point - does anyone knowboff hand how many options, and how this might possibly fit into the TPE stock delivery dates?

The option is for 30 additional trains: http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/at300-for-the-west-of-england_156.html and First need 44. Although, that option is for bi-mode so could TPE get x electric only trains and then up to 30 bi-modes?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

What is about people on here wanting to prove their beliefs as the truth to disprove the facts that have been published?

Liverpool-newcastle currently runs, extended to edinburgh,
Liverpool-scarborough via warrington moving to chat moss. Current liverpool-MIA via the moss switching to northern connect via warrington. Warrington loses TPE
Mia-yrk extended to newcastle

New build 5 car 125mph trains along with refurb 185's. Some 185's will transfer to northern connect. They will MOST LIKELY still be deployed on routes they are seen on now. MIA-blackpool until electrified then possibly 350's will be used. Calder valley and BPN-YRK which MAY be extended to scarborough.

If you want the facts please refer to TPE's website and stop trying to disprove the published facts

 

[Haydn1971]

Is there not scope for Manchester-Sheffield service improvements from the EMT franchise when that is re-let?

One would hope so, but that's still more than two years until the new franchise assuming no direct award beyond March 2018

 

[northwichcat]

What is about people on here wanting to prove their beliefs as the truth to disprove the facts that have been published?

Some 185's will transfer to northern connect. They will MOST LIKELY still be deployed on routes they are seen on now. MIA-blackpool until electrified then possibly 350's will be used. Calder valley and BPN-YRK which MAY be extended to scarborough.

If you want the facts please refer to TPE's website and stop trying to disprove the published facts

Very interesting you complain about people not accepting facts and then post things which aren't confirmed.

No TPE units are confirmed as permanently transfering to Northern. The ITTs did mention a temporary loan but that was based on TPE getting replacements for the 170s. Those replacements haven't been confirmed and without those replacements will TPE actually be able to loan 185s to Northern prior to Northern getting new build?

It looks very likely TPE will get bi-mode trains for North TPE so there will be no need to transfer Scarborough or Middlesbrough if Manchester-York electrification gets completed before the end of the franchise.

 

[Haydn1971]

I am not sure whether any are diesel. There are 12 EMUs (60 carriages) in service by end of 2019 on Anglo-Scottish routes and 19 bi-modes (95 carriages) to be introduced on services via Newcastle by end of 2020.
New trains start to enter service by end of 2017 to enable additional services to Edinburgh, Hull and Scarborough.

That opens the market up for existing products somewhat

 

[northwichcat]

One would hope so, but that's still more than two years until the new franchise assuming no direct award beyond March 2018

Will there be any paths out of Manchester for an additional service to Sheffield? The option was looked at but it was decided that hourly local services were in more need of enhancement than a half-hourly regional service to Sheffield.

 

[Haydn1971]

Not an issue if they run 10 cars from Scotland to Preston and then split of course

Thinking aloud, the only reason the TPE services are so full is because of the pathetic services provided by the current northern franchise - if you provide a quality semi-fast fleet of 8 car commuter units for both TPE and Northern then it won't really matter about the five car fast services, because most commuters won't need to use them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thinking aloud, the only reason the TPE services are so full is because of the pathetic services provided by the current northern franchise - if you provide a quality semi-fast fleet of 8 car commuter units for both TPE and Northern then it won't really matter about the five car fast services, because most commuters won't need to use them.

Er, why? Do you not think commuters, just like anyone else, will choose the fastest service by and large?

The only way to prevent that being an issue would be price differentials on the German model.

 

[northwichcat]

New trains start to enter service by end of 2017 to enable additional services to Edinburgh, Hull and Scarborough.

Liverpool-Edinburgh is down as December 2018. What new services to Hull or Scarborough? Don't you mean revision of calling pattern/route of existing services?

The additional Manchester-Leeds service needs to start in December 2017, while the Manchester Airport-York extension to Newcastle is scheduled for December 2016, which sounds optimistic.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That is a very good point - does anyone knowboff hand how many options, and how this might possibly fit into the TPE stock delivery dates?

Roger Ford said the option was for 30 trains (Modern Railways, August, p55).
It didn't give a number of vehicles.
The 29 trains ordered for GWR are 7x9 and 22x5 or 173 vehicles, and are for delivery in 2018.
So you wouldn't expect TPE to get any before 2019 if they took up this option.

 

[Stats]

Liverpool-Edinburgh is down as December 2018. What new services to Hull or Scarborough? Don't you mean revision of calling pattern/route of existing services?

Everything I said was in the DfT timeline, so ask them not me. This image posted for December 2017 alongside the caption for TPE new trains enter service.
http://assets.dft.gov.uk/test/tpe-northern-york.jpeg

 

[northwichcat]

Everything I said was in the DfT timeline, so ask them not me. This image posted for December 2017 alongside the caption for TPE new trains enter service.

But if you look at this the weekday service to Hull is still hourly, but there will be significant improvements to Sunday services, so no extra trains are required to make those improvements: http://maps.dft.gov.uk/transpennine-express/index.html#hull

 

[43074]

Liverpool-Edinburgh is down as December 2018. What new services to Hull or Scarborough? Don't you mean revision of calling pattern/route of existing services?

The additional Manchester-Leeds service needs to start in December 2017, while the Manchester Airport-York extension to Newcastle is scheduled for December 2016, which sounds optimistic.

Where do TPE have the stock to extend to Newcastle by December next year? They're stretched as it is, the cynic in me suggests there is an interim solution which is going to be unpopular and hence hasn't been announced today.

EDIT: I've just checked the map, it's down for December 2017 but still TPE will need more trains.

 

[Stats]

Where do TPE have the stock to extend to Newcastle by December next year? They're stretched as it is, the cynic in me suggests there is an interim solution which is going to be unpopular and hence hasn't been announced today.

There will not be 2tph to Newcastle until December 2017.

 

[northwichcat]

Where do TPE have the stock to extend to Newcastle by December next year? They're stretched as it is, the cynic in me suggests there is an interim solution which is going to be unpopular and hence hasn't been announced today.

Exactly. If TPE had been allowed to retain the 170/3s and they were 100% confident no diesel trains were needed to run to Blackpool after the December 16 timetable change I could understand it but as things are...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've just checked the map, it's down for December 2017 but still TPE will need more trains.

First put it on their Press Release as December 16.

 

[Haydn1971]

Er, why? Do you not think commuters, just like anyone else, will choose the fastest service by and large?

I've numerous friends and colleagues that don't catch the fastest train in preference for a semi ok train that's a bit more convenient, maybe has parking at the station or guarantees a seat. Currently, the Northern services are packed, dirty, noisy, don't have great heating and ventilation, poor lighting, broken seats... People take the packed express options because it's the lesser of two evils

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've numerous friends and colleagues that don't catch the fastest train in preference for a semi ok train that's a bit more convenient, maybe has parking at the station or guarantees a seat. Currently, the Northern services are packed, dirty, noisy, don't have great heating and ventilation, poor lighting, broken seats... People take the packed express options because it's the lesser of two evils

I do that as well. But go to MKC, where you'll see hordes of commuters cram onto Virgin trains where there isn't a seat for everyone, letting go the slower LM trains where there is (and arguably, if it's a 350/1 or /3, a nicer travelling environment overall). And similarly go to Reading, where they cram onto HSTs and whine about it, while the whole time Turbos are leaving on slow and semifast journeys with (at that point) tons of seats empty.

So I don't think most people do do what you do; they take the fastest train.

 

[cuccir]

All Liverpool trains pass through Manchester... offering connections including for trains every few minutes to Manchester Airport. It's not either or with a Liverpool to Newcastle train, you get both benefits, it's just an either or with an Airport terminating one (where these two cities will now only have one hourly connection to each other). The impact is most keenly felt on the western side. Not good.

Unless I'm mistaken, though, Liverpool is not losing any services to Manchester as part of this?

Trains from Newcastle-Liverpool pass through Victoria. To get to Piccadilly or the Airport, people from the NE currently have to either use the Tram/Bus in Manchester or change at York/Leeds/Huddersfield - all busy stations and busy services.

From a North-East (though I do stress, anecdotal) perspective, people would much rather have an hourly train service to Liverpool and an hourly service to Piccadilly/Airport than two trains an hour to Liverpool.