TPE franchise awarded to First

[Tetchytyke]

I would be surprised if it is an AT300, given the significant investment from Siemens on TMDs and the fact the 185s still have so long left on their contract. Though on the other hand DafT have to justify the Insanely Expensive Project somehow...

 

[Camden]

Five car trains? Will these be doubled up? At peak times the eight car Scotland services can be rammed now in 2015, let alone in a few years when these are built.

Most platforms cannot handle 10 carriage trains as I understand it, so five carriages would be your lot in that case.

 

[ExRes]

Most platforms cannot handle 10 carriage trains as I understand it, so five carriages would be your lot in that case.

No, no, no, new rolling stock built with SDO means a 20 carriage train could stop at a 4 car platform, it just means the designers and builders use the technology already existing

 

[Haydn1971]

No, no, no, new rolling stock built with SDO means a 20 carriage train could stop at a 4 car platform, it just means the designers and builders use the technology already existing

It's been said elsewhere that GWR have developed procedures for doubled up SET units calling at platforms too short for both units - can't see this being a problem in the north, apart from buggering about with points and signals that are close to the platforms

 

[ExRes]

It's been said elsewhere that GWR have developed procedures for doubled up SET units calling at platforms too short for both units - can't see this being a problem in the north, apart from buggering about with points and signals that are close to the platforms

Exactly, a 222 formed of 2x5 can stop at every station from St Pancras to Sheffield or Nottingham, if it can be done on the MML I see no reason it can't be done everywhere else

 

[po8crg]

If they're five-car 800s then that will be really impressive, though 26m trains with end-doors aren't great for platform times.

 

[Haydn1971]

If they're five-car 800s then that will be really impressive, though 26m trains with end-doors aren't great for platform times.

To be fair, all we know at this stage is five car, diesel and a max speed of 125mph. Every manufacturer could build that.

 

[IanXC]

Suspect they (the maps you are going off) might be wrong because I read the Northern/TPE ITT and the announcements.

Ah ha. So you're claiming that the interactive maps *must* be wrong because you believe the ITT says something else?

Unless there is a document released today which contradicts them, I see no reason whatsoever to suspect any error in the interactive maps. The relevant TPE services, as per *todays* documents are:

1tph Liverpool - Newcastle (as now) extended to Edinburgh
1tph Liverpool - Scarborough (currently via the CLC, to be rerouted via Chat Moss)
1tph Manchester Airport - York (extended to Newcastle)

All that is detailed in a source dated today. In the absence of the full agreements (which as others have noted above) will be at least 10 days, these are surely the best sources we have, unless you have other information post award?!

 

[tbtc]

Looks like Sheffield - Manchester will remain a single 185 which will only run as a double in the peaks.

Yes, we are the Ginger Stepchild of Transpennine - lots of exciting talk about 125mph stock and increased frequencies on the Manchester - Leeds corridor whilst the line to Sheffield/ Cleethorpes gets a couple of new shelters ("waiting shelters installed at the station bus stops" at Scunthorpe) plus the general uplift in Sunday operation (that I'm looking forward to the Unions accepting)...

...no increased frequency, no new trains, presumably just some of the existing 170 diagrams being replaced by 185s (meaning some doubled up 185s at rush hour)? We're not part of the "powerhouse" corridor - we might as well have the Cleethorpes service handed over to EMT - we don't seem to be a priority for TPE!

I still make it two. It's possible that the promised half hourly to Newcastle is now just an hourly, with the other one still to the metropolis of Scarborough

That's my understanding too.

The headline of a flagship half hourly Liverpool - Newcastle service has been sacrificed for a lop-sided timetable (where Liverpool will get two/hour to the core and Newcastle will get two/hour to the core, but not a straightforward half hourly service at either end?

Presumably it's more important to ensure that everywhere has a direct link to Manchester Airport (hence the "second" Newcastle service being diverted there instead)?

Talking of Newcastle - has anyone seen mention of whether this hourly Morpeth service is instead of or as well as the existing Northern service there every hour (which also stops at Cramlington)? Northern won't have sufficient critical mass to convert it to EMU operation (extension to the Metrocentre notwithstanding), but I really hope we'll not see 75mph DMUs clogging up the busy line from Newcastle to Morpeth each hour.

 

[Marklund]

Thanks!!!
I've got a new name....NoArrive.

Think that should suit everyone?

Or No-va.

https://translate.google.co.uk/?oe=utf-8&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&client=tw-ob#es/en/Nova

 

[Camden]

I don't think Liverpool or Newcastle travellers would call the bit in the middle "the core", they'd just call it Manchester or Leeds. With the current configuration of services, the obsession with Manchester Airport is absurd, resulting in reduced services to major cities, including reduced connections to the airport itself. Instead of a through service providing rapid interchange and minimal wait for regular long distance services people are left waiting for long periods of time to get to and from their towns and cities, on trains which are then overcrowded. It's totally suboptimal.

 

[talltim]

Exactly, a 222 formed of 2x5 can stop at every station from St Pancras to Sheffield or Nottingham, if it can be done on the MML I see no reason it can't be done everywhere else

I traveled on one such today, although I don;t know where it stopped bar Chesterfield and Sheffield

 

[sprinterguy]

Talking of Newcastle - has anyone seen mention of whether this hourly Morpeth service is instead of or as well as the existing Northern service there every hour (which also stops at Cramlington)? Northern won't have sufficient critical mass to convert it to EMU operation (extension to the Metrocentre notwithstanding), but I really hope we'll not see 75mph DMUs clogging up the busy line from Newcastle to Morpeth each hour.

The Arriva Northern franchise announcement states that at least twelve trains per day must run through to the Metrocentre from Morpeth - Essentially, the current hourly Morpeth - Metrocentre service will continue, using diesel stock.

 

[westv]

Hull won't like it but the Hull service is set to be one of the 'semi-fast' services via Guide Bridge which will include calls at smaller stations between Manchester and Leeds.

The fasts will be:
Manchester Airport to Newcastle
Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough
Liverpool to Edinburgh via Chat Moss & York
Liverpool to Scarborough via Chat Moss

Fortunately I don't use it but does that mean Hull been left with a worse service?

 

[Starmill]

Manchester Airport is 8 coaches maximum on all platforms.

By Local Instructions though right? Not by actual platform length? Isn't (for example) 142 +2*350 permitted?

And as you may remember, the Local Instructions were ammended quite recently at Manchester Airport

 

[northwichcat]

Yes, we are the Ginger Stepchild of Transpennine - lots of exciting talk about 125mph stock and increased frequencies on the Manchester - Leeds corridor whilst the line to Sheffield/ Cleethorpes gets a couple of new shelters ("waiting shelters installed at the station bus stops" at Scunthorpe) plus the general uplift in Sunday operation (that I'm looking forward to the Unions accepting)...

Yes the headline good news for Sheffield from TPE just seems to be the 185s will be refurbished and they'll be more carriages on services. If Mr McLoughlin or Osborne visits Sheffield I'm sure they'll want to focus on the generic improvements which will be seen across the North like more capacityand wi-fi on trains and the new high standard Northern Connect services which will run between Leeds and Lincoln via Sheffield and between Sheffield and Hull.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Fortunately I don't use it but does that mean Hull been left with a worse service?

I imagine if Hull passengers are happy to go to Manchester Victoria it'll finish up better for them to change at Leeds than to use the direct service.

 

[anti-pacer]

Am I right in assuming Hull will end up with less than an ideal service to Manchester?

I know you can't please everyone but surely somewhere as economically depressed as Hull would benefit from having enhanced transport links.

Why can't the Scarborough's operate more of a stopping service west of Leeds instead?

 

[northwichcat]

Presumably it's more important to ensure that everywhere has a direct link to Manchester Airport (hence the "second" Newcastle service being diverted there instead)?

Presumably Manchester Airport-York will be half-hourly and Liverpool-York will be half-hourly but if you want to do Newcastle/Durham to Huddersfield/Manchester then you won't have a clockface timetable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Most platforms cannot handle 10 carriage trains as I understand it, so five carriages would be your lot in that case.

When Virgin introduced 11 car Pendolinos people said they can't run Manchester to London via Crewe because of platform lengths at Wilmslow but Virgin have used 11 car Pendolinos on services calling at Wilmslow. SDO and/or platform extensions could solve the problem.

 

[Haydn1971]

Yes, we are the Ginger Stepchild of Transpennine - lots of exciting talk about 125mph stock and increased frequencies on the Manchester - Leeds corridor whilst the line to Sheffield/ Cleethorpes gets a couple of new shelters ("waiting shelters installed at the station bus stops" at Scunthorpe) plus the general uplift in Sunday operation (that I'm looking forward to the Unions accepting)...



...no increased frequency, no new trains, presumably just some of the existing 170 diagrams being replaced by 185s (meaning some doubled up 185s at rush hour)? We're not part of the "powerhouse" corridor - we might as well have the Cleethorpes service handed over to EMT - we don't seem to be a priority for TPE!

You've kinda answered the question I was about to ask... More doubled up 185's will be nice, but as you say, an extra service an hour including six car units at peak is what's needed.

I'd also like to see some early options from Dore. I catch along with about 20 other people, the 6:27am EMT from Dore to Manchester, the 4 carriage train is about 80% full by the time it reaches Manchester. I've had fellow passengers tell me that they can't get a seat on the 7:15am TPE service. It's pretty damning that the first semi fast service from Dore, gets you to Manchester as late as 7:34am, with just two arriving before 8:30am and amazingly three before 9:00am.

There's the 6:00am from Meadowhall that provides the free parking, but generally that involves a punch up at Piccadilly coming home to get a seat on the 4:20pm or 5:20pm train or a change at Sheffield. Travel from Sheffield using the tram I hear people cry ? Not really an option given the first tram gets into Sheffield Station at 6:30am from the SW of the city. Sheffield only gets four semi-fast trains after 6:00am that reach Manchester before 9:00am, two of those take over an hour !

 

[Iskra]

You've kinda answered the question I was about to ask... More doubled up 185's will be nice, but as you say, an extra service an hour including six car units at peak is what's needed.

I'd also like to see some early options from Dore. I catch along with about 20 other people, the 6:27am EMT from Dore to Manchester, the 4 carriage train is about 80% full by the time it reaches Manchester. I've had fellow passengers tell me that they can't get a seat on the 7:15am TPE service. It's pretty damning that the first semi fast service from Dore, gets you to Manchester as late as 7:34am, with just two arriving before 8:30am and amazingly three before 9:00am.

There's the 6:00am from Meadowhall that provides the free parking, but generally that involves a punch up at Piccadilly coming home to get a seat on the 4:20pm or 5:20pm train or a change at Sheffield. Travel from Sheffield using the tram I hear people cry ? Not really an option given the first tram gets into Sheffield Station at 6:30am from the SW of the city. Sheffield only gets four semi-fast trains after 6:00am that reach Manchester before 9:00am, two of those take over an hour !

Is there not scope for Manchester-Sheffield service improvements from the EMT franchise when that is re-let?

 

[thenorthern]

Given that the speed limit for non-tilting stock on the WCML is 110 and the new FTPE want to introduce 125 MPH stock will we now get a new generation of tilting train?

I will be honest though I don't think an hourly Manchester to Edinburgh via Newcastle service service will ever work as geographically Edinburgh is further west than Manchester meaning any service has to go east by quite a bit and then west taking a lot of time and the 2 services provided by CrossCountry and VTEC services are more than enough.

 

[IanXC]

I imagine if Hull passengers are happy to go to Manchester Victoria it'll finish up better for them to change at Leeds than to use the direct service.

I would imagine so too, remembering there will now be 2tph Leeds - Hull with the new NT service.

Am I right in assuming Hull will end up with less than an ideal service to Manchester?

I know you can't please everyone but surely somewhere as economically depressed as Hull would benefit from having enhanced transport links.

Why can't the Scarborough's operate more of a stopping service west of Leeds instead?

Pretty much. That said, if this extra MAN-LDS service does transpire to be a semifast/stopper it will result in today's announcement being a little better than we feared from the ITT. Tbf it will probably look like a good news story from Hull, gaining a second service to Leeds is big news.

 

[northwichcat]

Why can't the Scarborough's operate more of a stopping service west of Leeds instead?

From my personal experience neither westbound Hull or Scarborough services sees significant number of passengers continuing beyond Leeds. I actually know three people who make regular journeys between the Hull area and the Manchester area (separately not together) and none of them use the train, they all drive.

 

[sprinterguy]

By Local Instructions though right? Not by actual platform length? Isn't (for example) 142 +2*350 permitted?

According to the sectional appendix, platform lengths at Manchester Piccadilly are 196, 197, 200 and 201 metres respectively from platforms 1 to 4.

 

[northwichcat]

Given that the speed limit for non-tilting stock on the WCML is 110 and the new FTPE want to introduce 125 MPH stock will we now get a new generation of tilting train?

Not necessarily. Note it's likely the same type of trains will likely run on the ECML where they'll be no benefit of having a tilt. Virgin used to use 220s on Manchester-Scotland services which could only get up to 110mph on that route but could run at 125mph on other routes they operated on.

 

[Iskra]

Given that the speed limit for non-tilting stock on the WCML is 110 and the new FTPE want to introduce 125 MPH stock will we now get a new generation of tilting train?

I will be honest though I don't think an hourly Manchester to Edinburgh via Newcastle service service will ever work as geographically Edinburgh is further west than Manchester meaning any service has to go east by quite a bit and then west taking a lot of time and the 2 services provided by CrossCountry and VTEC services are more than enough.

It's not aimed at Liverpool-Edinburgh passengers. It's aimed at regional journeys, and then connecting Liverpool/Manchester and Yorkshire/Newcastle and Edinburgh to Newcastle/Yorkshire.

XC and VTEC are not providing adequate Leeds-Edinburgh capacity (it's actually pathetic). Any additional competition will reduce prices, so is positive. Currently VTEC don't feel they need to compete with TPE or XC on price in the North East as their trains are packed so people choose VTEC for a nicer journey.

 

[sprinterguy]

No, no, no, new rolling stock built with SDO means a 20 carriage train could stop at a 4 car platform, it just means the designers and builders use the technology already existing

Certainly possible, but not necessarily practical at a major station such as Huddersfield, where a third or more of your ten coach train will be off the platform (Platforms 1 and 8, and 4 in the Up direction, assuming 23 or 26 metre carriage lengths), greatly extending passenger egress times, or at a terminal station such as Manchester Airport, where platforms are around 200 metres in length (max 10 x 20m at a push) and the signals are located just off the platform ends.

It's also surely far more important to consider whether First are ordering sufficient units to allow any doubling up of 5-car trains in the first place.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Worst news in the world that the incompetent worst group have won it again!:mad:

My thoughts also with yet more short sighted stock ordering in the shape of to short 5 coach trains replacing to short 15 year old 3 coach ones, if indeed this is the case. Another however many years of bucket loads of cheep APs crowding out trains leaving no room for anyone. Ah well. Sorry if I appear negative. I do however hope to be proved wrong.

 

[sprinterguy]

My thoughts also with yet more short sighted stock ordering in the shape of to short 5 coach trains replacing to short 15 year old 3 coach ones, if indeed this is the case. Another however many years of bucket loads of cheep APs crowding out trains leaving no room for anyone. Ah well. Sorry if I appear negative. I do however hope to be proved wrong.

Erm, the current trains (barring the small number of 170s) are barely ten years old. Certainly it's less than that since they entered squadron service.

No less than 44 new trains are replacing only a portion of the current 185 fleet, with two more carriages per unit than at present. I'm not sure how much more you can really expect to ask for.

 

[Domh245]

Exactly, a 222 formed of 2x5 can stop at every station from St Pancras to Sheffield or Nottingham, if it can be done on the MML I see no reason it can't be done everywhere else

The main constraint in this case becomes platform lengths at Terminals. A 10x26m train won't fit in any platforms at Manchester Airport, so they will have to bear that in mind. Not an issue if they run 10 cars from Scotland to Preston and then split of course