TPE franchise awarded to First

[sprinterguy]

They could easily have a similar or even better capacity than 2x3 car units, due to less cab space, only one accessible toilet, one first class section and an overall more efficient carriage design.

If we're looking at 5 x 26 metre AT-300 units, then based on the published capacities for the FGW units the seated capacity of a 5-car unit will be comparable to a pair of 3-car 185s.

With the Hull to Manchester and, presumably, Leeds to Manchester, services remaining worked by 185s and operating semi-fast with more stops, then hopefully TPE will be retaining enough units for these to operate as 6-car trains during the peak. If so, with pretty much every train through the Transpennine core offering the capacity of a 6-car 185, this represents a substantial increase in capacity at peak hours.

 

[northwichcat]

Appears where? I'm dismissing the maps as above, as I suspect they may be wrong. Can you provide a document stating this?

The First Press Release confirms there will be hourly Liverpool-Newcastle-Edinburgh and Manchester Airport-Newcastle services: http://www.firstgroupplc.com/news-and-media/latest-news/2015/09-12-15.aspx

The ITT specified 2tph between Liverpool and York via Chat Moss, so if Liverpool-Scarborough is wrong then it's definitely Liverpool-Middlesbrough. As there's no mention of a new Liverpool-Middlesbrough service I would suspect the former is correct as per the map you don't trust.

There is a separate thread on the TPE franchise here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=124132

 

[F Great Eastern]

The Desiro Verve looks an interesting train alwright, but politics may suggest that Bombardier will get it or Alstom, with the later having just announced new facilities being built in the North.

 

[sprinterguy]

Question. Why can the new trains not be the Siemens Desiro Verve as launched (some could say to good timing) earlier this year:

http://www.globalrailnews.com/2015/05/13/siemens-reveals-125mph-emu-for-uk/

Could be, I suppose, but Bi-mode capability would be essential.

 

[IanXC]

Appears where? I'm dismissing the maps as above, as I suspect they may be wrong. Can you provide a document stating this?

Suspect they might be wrong because?

I'm going on the following from the DfT 'interactive maps':

Manchester Airport:
Reinstated direct link to Newcastle

Liverpool:
New direct service to Edinburgh (1 per hour via Newcastle)

Newcastle:
1 train per hour continuing to Liverpool and 1 train per hour to Manchester Airport
New hourly service to Edinburgh via Morpeth

Which is how I come to my conclusion.

 

[Iskra]

If we're looking at 5 x 26 metre AT-300 units, then based on the published capacities for the FGW units the seated capacity of a 5-car unit will be comparable to a pair of 3-car 185s.

With the Hull to Manchester and, presumably, Leeds to Manchester, services remaining worked by 185s and operating semi-fast with more stops, then hopefully TPE will be retaining enough units for these to operate as 6-car trains during the peak. If so, with pretty much every train through the Transpennine core offering the capacity of a 6-car 185, this represents a substantial increase in capacity at peak hours.

Exactly. I really can't understand while people are still picking-holes in this franchise specification. It's an obvious improvement and significant investment during a time of austerity, for a region that has been overlooked for years! What's not to like?

There is also an extra semi-fast through the core, so that's more capacity there, even if it is just 1x 185.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Desiro Verve looks an interesting train alwright, but politics may suggest that Bombardier will get it or Alstom, with the later having just announced new facilities being built in the North.

If a bi-mode Desiro Verve could be made compatible with the Class 185 that introduces a good number of peak-time strengthening options.

 

[F Great Eastern]

More info in 2016 according to TPE Twitter.

 

[northwichcat]

First will pay £303m NPV real premium for TransPennine Express. Shifts from subsidy in 2017/18.

https://twitter.com/philatrail/status/674501929695895552

 

[Camden]

The First Press Release confirms there will be hourly Liverpool-Newcastle-Edinburgh and Manchester Airport-Newcastle services: http://www.firstgroupplc.com/news-and-media/latest-news/2015/09-12-15.aspx

The ITT specified 2tph between Liverpool and York via Chat Moss, so if Liverpool-Scarborough is wrong then it's definitely Liverpool-Middlesbrough. As there's no mention of a new Liverpool-Middlesbrough service I would suspect the former is correct as per the map you don't trust.

There is a separate thread on the TPE franchise here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=124132

Why is it Liverpool to Middlesborough?

Liverpool - Manchester - Leeds - York - Newcastle
Liverpool - Manchester - Leeds - York - Newcastle - Edinburgh

Two TPE services to York.

 

[sprinterguy]

More info in 2016 according to TPE Twitter.

Stands to reason - After the ten day standstill period, Christmas and New Year will be right on top of us so it makes sense that more detailed announcements will wait until after the New Year.

Plenty of opportunity for continued unfounded speculation then.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The additional TPE service is not what it seems in my opinion. One will be stopping at Morley, Batley, Mirfield, Deighton to make up for the loss of the Leeds-Huddersfield stopper which is lost to make room for the 6th TPE service. I believe the ManVic-Leeds via bridghouse may also have its calls removed from Batley to be added into another semi fast service.

That is what the ITT said anyway!

Stands to reason - After the ten day standstill period, Christmas and New Year will be right on top of us so it makes sense that more detailed announcements will wait until the New Year.

Plenty of opportunity for continued unfounded speculation then.

No, we wouldn't would we?

 

[thenorthern]

With Alliance GNER planning to operate soon will this mean 4 trains an hour between Newcastle and Edinburgh?

 

[northwichcat]

The additional TPE service is not what it seems in my opinion. One will be stopping at Morley, Batley, Mirfield, Deighton to make up for the loss of the Leeds-Huddersfield stopper which is lost to make room for the 6th TPE service. I believe the ManVic-Leeds via bridghouse may also have its calls removed from Batley to be added into another semi fast service.

That is what the ITT said anyway!

Network Rail said 6 TPE services was a no no pre-electrification unless the stoppers were replaced by "semi-fasts" so as they'll be introduced in December 2017 and electrification is years off that's the only option.

 

[sprinterguy]

Exactly. I really can't understand while people are still picking-holes in this franchise specification. It's an obvious improvement and significant investment during a time of austerity...

Indeed. It is worth noting also that this represents the second brand new train fleet for Transpennine services in just over a decade (by the time they're delivered), the 185s having replaced trains that were just about at mid-life themselves.

What was that about no investment in rail in the north?

 

[Howardh]

I'm confused (not for the first time!)

I "get" the TPE deal/franchise.
It's the Arriva I'm not sure about as people keep mentioning Northern.
Are there two franchises (Arriva and Northern)?
Just one (Arriva)?
If so, what will happen to Northern's infrastructure (trains/wifi/stations etc)
Will we have trains in different colours and livery to Northerns?

EDIT Notice Bolton's been left off that interactive map - will TPE be ignoring us?
Cheers if you can tidy everything up for me!

 

[jimm]

5-car seems odd unless there's an option to extend to 6 at a later date. An improvement on a single 185 but a downgrade on a double, and no option to pair up on the Standedge route due to platform lengths everywhere except Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, York, and some of the East side termini. Especially considering that TPE will be serving local stations between Leeds and Manchester.

I can't see AT300s being a viable option unless a variant can be offered with wider doors, that is unless common sense has prevailed at long last about frequency in the core.

Have you ever heard of selective door opening?

Assuming we are talking a Class 800/AT300 variant, then SDO will be fitted as standard and GWR has already devised operating procedures for short platforms for the 800s, involving stopping the central part of the train on the platform, so that there is access from both sections of a coupled train. I doubt that services covering the intermediate stops between Huddersfield and Manchester are likely to be worked by coupled sets, which, if they are required, are surely going to be focused on Scottish services and the faster duties through the TPE core only serving major stations. And if 185s are still going to be plying their trade on the core route, they look the most obvious candidates to serve the smaller stations

Re doors, the Hitachi A-train bodyshell was designed to be able to be adapted for various roles, including commuter-type stock, so a different door set-up from the 395s/800s/AT300s is certainly possible, assuming Hitachi is going to get the order.

 

[Iskra]

I'm confused (not for the first time!)

I "get" the TPE deal/franchise.
It's the Arriva I'm not sure about as people keep mentioning Northern.
Are there two franchises (Arriva and Northern)?
Just one (Arriva)?
If so, what will happen to Northern's infrastructure (trains/wifi/stations etc)
Will we have trains in different colours and livery to Northerns?


Cheers if you can tidy everything up for me!

It will still be TPE and Northern. Northern will now be run by Arriva. We don't know what the new Arriva Northern name is yet, so people are still using the Northern name...

 

[jimm]

I'm confused (not for the first time!)

I "get" the TPE deal/franchise.
It's the Arriva I'm not sure about as people keep mentioning Northern.
Are there two franchises (Arriva and Northern)?
Just one (Arriva)?
If so, what will happen to Northern's infrastructure (trains/wifi/stations etc)
Will we have trains in different colours and livery to Northerns?


Cheers if you can tidy everything up for me!

Try this thread about the Northern franchise award http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=124133.

Arriva will be the new operator of the Northern franchise, taking over from Abellio, but as Iskra says, what brand name they will use remains to be seen.

 

[Howardh]

It will still be TPE and Northern. Northern will now be run by Arriva. We don't know what the new Arriva Northern name is yet, so people are still using the Northern name...

Thanks!!!
I've got a new name....NoArrive.

Think that should suit everyone?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It will still be TPE and Northern. Northern will now be run by Arriva. We don't know what the new Arriva Northern name is yet, so people are still using the Northern name...

They seem to have bid as "Arriva Rail North" though it doesn't 100% follow that that brand will be used, I think there is a good chance it will.

Going more on topic, I do wonder if TPE will remain "First TransPennine Express" or if the First will be dropped per GW.

 

[43074]

How many 185 diagrams are there in the North West? With Edinburgh, the Newcastle extras and the extra TPE between Leeds and Manchester there must be extra rolling stock on its way before the Dec 17 timetable change surely? If they take on the Northern locals might some 158s transfer or are 442s on the table still but unannounced.

 

[northwichcat]

They seem to have bid as "Arriva Rail North" though it doesn't 100% follow that that brand will be used, I think there is a good chance it will.

Going more on topic, I do wonder if TPE will remain "First TransPennine Express" or if the First will be dropped per GW.

It sounds like they will use 'Northern' and 'Northern Connect' based on the Arriva Press Release

Arriva will operate the franchise under a refreshed Northern brand
...
Northern Connect: Northern Connect will be a new network of 12 long distance routes

http://www.arriva.co.uk/media/news/2015/09-12-2015

Possibly we'll see a new Northern logo and then underneath operated by Arriva a DB company?

 

[Haydn1971]

Exactly. I really can't understand while people are still picking-holes in this franchise specification. It's an obvious improvement and significant investment during a time of austerity, for a region that has been overlooked for years!

Not so much picking holes, just seeking clarity in my case

It's fair to say that 5x26m units (non AT300 sets are also available), would work within the current six car length platform limitations of many stations - adding extra carriages appears to be an option if the TPE 125mph units are relatively new designs and are still being built 3-5 years down the line - could a flat floor bi-mode be possible for TransPennine given the slower track speeds across the watershed might only require a 90mph diesel speed ?

What's not to like?

Coughs, your asking an Internet forum that !

Seriously though, investment is good.

 

[Camden]

Suspect they might be wrong because?

I'm going on the following from the DfT 'interactive maps':

Manchester Airport:
Reinstated direct link to Newcastle

Liverpool:
New direct service to Edinburgh (1 per hour via Newcastle)

Newcastle:
1 train per hour continuing to Liverpool and 1 train per hour to Manchester Airport
New hourly service to Edinburgh via Morpeth

Which is how I come to my conclusion.

Suspect they (the maps you are going off) might be wrong because I read the Northern/TPE ITT and the announcements.

• Liverpool CLC TPE service to Scarborough (via Warrington): ends ("switched" to Chat Moss, see below third point), actually replaced by Northern Regional CLC service from Liverpool to Manchester Airport.
• Liverpool - Newcastle Chat Moss service: continues (extended to Edinburgh).
• Liverpool - Newcastle Chat Moss service: new (was TPE servce via CLC to Scarborough).

If someone can show me documentation (excluding the maps, which I think may be faulty) showing that there will be three TPE services from Liverpool (Newcastle, Edinburgh, "Other") then great, but nothing so far and I still make it two.

Indeed the "reinstated" link from Newcastle to Manchester Airport may well suggest that the sixth transpennine train per hour much argued over has been given to Manchester Airport instead of Liverpool, leaving the connection between these two major cities at just two TPE trains an hour.

 

[po8crg]

Can we get discussion about Northern into the other thread please:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=124133

 

[Class185]

TPE as follows:

Liverpool - Edinburgh ( Extended current Newcastle service) hourly via Newton-le-Willows
Liverpool - Scarborough (divert via Newton and Man Victoria)
Liverpool - Glasgow ( New, 3x daily)

From what I understand Northern will run 2 Liv - Man Airport 1 via Newton and 1 via Warrington. This along side a new Bradford service via St Helens and Man Vic.

 

[Camden]

TPE as follows:

Liverpool - Edinburgh ( Extended current Newcastle service) hourly via Newton-le-Willows
Liverpool - Scarborough (divert via Newton and Man Victoria)
Liverpool - Glasgow ( New, 3x daily)

From what I understand Northern will run 2 Liv - Man Airport 1 via Newton and 1 via Warrington. This along side a new Bradford service via St Helens and Man Vic.

Scarborough is not as far as I am aware "diverting" in any proper sense:

Suspect they (the maps you are going off) might be wrong because I read the Northern/TPE ITT and the announcements.

• Liverpool CLC TPE service to Scarborough (via Warrington): ends ("switched" to Chat Moss, see below third point), actually replaced by Northern Regional CLC service from Liverpool to Manchester Airport.
• Liverpool - Newcastle Chat Moss service: continues (extended to Edinburgh).
• Liverpool - Newcastle Chat Moss service: new (was TPE servce via CLC to Scarborough).

If someone can show me documentation (excluding the maps, which I think may be faulty) showing that there will be three TPE services from Liverpool (Newcastle, Edinburgh, "Other") then great, but nothing so far and I still make it two.

Indeed the "reinstated" link from Newcastle to Manchester Airport may well suggest that the sixth transpennine train per hour much argued over has been given to Manchester Airport instead of Liverpool, leaving the connection between these two major cities at just two TPE trains an hour.

 

[northwichcat]

For the love of mary:
(Non interactive map) DOCUMENTS please!!!!

As I've already mentioned full documents aren't released for at least 10 days yet in case any of the losing bidders appeal but the First press release (not the map) states they'll be an hourly Manchester Airport to Newcastle service. Also unless you're discussing what impact the TPE changes will have to Northern services on Chat Moss, surely the TPE thread is more relevant for asking your question.

 

[Camden]

Suspect they might be wrong because?

I'm going on the following from the DfT 'interactive maps':

Manchester Airport:
Reinstated direct link to Newcastle

Liverpool:
New direct service to Edinburgh (1 per hour via Newcastle)

Newcastle:
1 train per hour continuing to Liverpool and 1 train per hour to Manchester Airport
New hourly service to Edinburgh via Morpeth

Which is how I come to my conclusion.

Suspect they (the maps you are going off) might be wrong because I read the Northern/TPE ITT and the announcements.

• Liverpool CLC TPE service to Scarborough (via Warrington): ends ("switched" to Chat Moss, see below third point), actually replaced by Northern Regional CLC service from Liverpool to Manchester Airport.
• Liverpool - Newcastle Chat Moss service: continues (extended to Edinburgh).
• Liverpool - Newcastle Chat Moss service: new (was TPE servce via CLC to Scarborough).

If someone can show me documentation (excluding the maps, which I think may be faulty) showing that there will be three TPE services from Liverpool (Newcastle, Edinburgh, "Other") then great, but nothing so far and I still make it two. It's possible that the promised half hourly to Newcastle is now just an hourly, with the other one still to the metropolis of Scarborough.

Indeed the "reinstated" link from Newcastle to Manchester Airport may well suggest that the sixth transpennine train per hour much argued over has been given to Manchester Airport instead of Liverpool, leaving the connection between these two major cities at just two TPE trains an hour.