TPE franchise awarded to First

[sprinterguy]

It's great that Liverpool is now getting an hourly Edinburgh service and a new 3 a day to Glasgow however does that mean the NCL service is staying hourly? Wasn't that supposed to be going to 2tph?

According to the interactive benefits map for the TPE franchise, Newcastle will still be receiving two TPE services an hour:

Newcastle
The benefits are:
•more than treble the number of seats into Newcastle during the morning peak
•service doubles to 2 trains per hour to York, Leeds and Manchester
•1 train per hour continuing to Liverpool and 1 train per hour to Manchester Airport
•new hourly service to Edinburgh via Morpeth
•seven-day a week service - major uplift in Sunday services 9am to 7pm
•brand new 125 mph trains

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If AT-300s with 26 metre carriages are being ordered, though of course we don't know for sure, then a five carriage train will only be 8 metres shorter than a 6-car 185 formation.

Which as I said is fine for those services which are currently a single 185, but not so much for those which are a double. 6tph is all well and good but AT300s will not do well with regard to dwell times, unless the door configuration is different to those on order already.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's great that Liverpool is now getting an hourly Edinburgh service and a new 3 a day to Glasgow however does that mean the NCL service is staying hourly? Wasn't that supposed to be going to 2tph? Does that mean Liverpool is keeping the SCA service? I know people in Warrington will be happy if that remains....

There's a new Manchester Airport-Newcastle service (2tph MCV-NCL).
Scarborough moving to Chat Moss and a Northern Connect Liverpool-Warrington-Airport instead.

 

[hwl]

78% of coaches will be new, so around 60 coaches retained of existing stock

So presumably circa 20x 185s retained and 37x 185s and the 350s surplus?

With Hull and Cleethorpes getting "fully refurbished trains" rather than the new stock.

 

[sprinterguy]

Which as I said is fine for those services which are currently a single 185, but not so much for those which are a double. 6tph is all well and good but AT300s will not do well with regard to dwell times, unless the door configuration is different to those on order already.

I have to say, that I think that a 6 x 20 metre class 395-esque version of the AT-300 might be more suitable for meeting the demands for higher density commuting through the North Transpennine core, than my suggested 5 x 26 metre version. Just have to see what happens, although seeing as First Group already have form in ordering large numbers of 125mph electro-diesel trains from Hitachi for both Great Western Railway and Hull Trains then I would be surprised if the TPE order was vastly different.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Several 185's were mooted to go to northern connect services. These will most likely be blackpool-scarborough, calder valley and the Liv-warrington-mia services. The 185's will pretty much be operating where they already are, but with split or even shared useage, much as the voyager fleet was split when WC and XC "de-merged"

I would expect tpe operated 185's will be retained on middlesbrough, scarborough, cleethorpes routes with the AT300 inspired derivatives concentrated on the ECML and WCML workings. The 350's will also most likely go to northern connect or may be transferred to London Midland.

This is putely my observation tho, no basis on fact.



AND NO MENTION OF 442's!!!

 

[sprinterguy]

I would expect tpe operated 185's will be retained on middlesbrough, scarborough, cleethorpes routes with the AT300 inspired derivatives concentrated on the ECML and WCML workings.

This seems sensible: 31 of the 44 new trains are destined for the "cross-border" services on the WCML and ECML, so what remains to be seen is what the remaining 13 trains will be allocated to: Newcastle to Manchester to maintain fleet commonality for scheduling, train crew and maintenance requirements at the northern end of the route, for one?

 

[daniel3982]

Looks like Sheffield - Manchester will remain a single 185 which will only run as a double in the peaks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am no great fan of First as people know, but this does sound like a good, solid improvement, and I agree the trains sound a bit like bi-mode IEP i.e. 5x26m with far less wasted space than 185s. Let's see how this pans out, I guess - but it seems to guarantee scrap for the 442s, which some won't like

 

[driver9000]

MIA will take 10 on 2 and 3 i think. Theres certainly space whan an 8 car 350 rolls in so 10x20m seemd feasable but dont think 10x23m will fit. Depends on the door configs and carriage length of the train.

Manchester Airport is 8 coaches maximum on all platforms.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Rumblings within the company still suggest the 442's will see short term use until the new trains arrive.

Mere speculation and rumour at this time!

 

[IanXC]

Several 185's were mooted to go to northern connect services. These will most likely be blackpool-scarborough, calder valley and the Liv-warrington-mia services. The 185's will pretty much be operating where they already are, but with split or even shared useage, much as the voyager fleet was split when WC and XC "de-merged"

I would expect tpe operated 185's will be retained on middlesbrough, scarborough, cleethorpes routes with the AT300 inspired derivatives concentrated on the ECML and WCML workings. The 350's will also most likely go to northern connect or may be transferred to London Midland.

This is putely my observation tho, no basis on fact.



AND NO MENTION OF 442's!!!

This seems sensible: 31 of the 44 new trains are destined for the "cross-border" services on the WCML and ECML, so what remains to be seen is what the remaining 13 trains will be allocated to: Newcastle to Manchester to maintain fleet commonality for scheduling, train crew and maintenance requirements at the northern end of the route, for one?

Scarborough seems to be in for the new stock...

Scarborough
The benefits are:

longer, new-build trains on direct services to Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool
station improvements including:
passenger awareness CCTV monitors
seven-day a week service - major uplift in Sunday services 9am to 7pm
brand new 125 mph trains, with
more reliable services
improved comfort for long-distance passengers
free Wi-Fi
access to power sockets from every seat
on-board cycle storage
entertainment and real-time journey information to smartphones and tablets
hearing loops

http://maps.dft.gov.uk/transpennine-express/index.html

 

[sprinterguy]

Scarborough seems to be in for the new stock...

So it is; and Middlesbrough, too: In fact, of the North Transpennine destinations, only Hull is set to receive "fully refurbished trains" rather than new 125mph ones.

 

[northwichcat]

So it is; and Middlesbrough, too: In fact, of the North Transpennine destinations, only Hull is set to receive "fully refurbished trains" rather than new 125mph ones.

Hull won't like it but the Hull service is set to be one of the 'semi-fast' services via Guide Bridge which will include calls at smaller stations between Manchester and Leeds.

The fasts will be:
Manchester Airport to Newcastle
Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough
Liverpool to Edinburgh via Chat Moss & York
Liverpool to Scarborough via Chat Moss

 

[cuccir]

It will be interesting to see the calling patterns of the TPE services in the North-East. Surely the new service has to include improvements for Chester-le-Street (every 2 hours at the moment) - the Newcastle-Manchester Airport trains calling there would improve this to hourly.

Hopefully the new TPE trains will improve connections in Northumberland/Borders as well. At the moment from 08:00-18:00 there are 0 trains Alnmouth-Morpeth, 1 each way Berwick-Morpeth, 1 southbound and 4 northbound Berwick-Alnmouth and 3 each way Dunbar-Berwick (as well as a 2-3 Dunbar-Alnmouth/Morpeth, though there is less demand for these).

In each case, changing adds around 60 minutes to journeys of between 20-30 minutes, so this could really improve local connections and boost rail commuting, shopping and other leisure in the region.

 

[Iskra]

One of the stated benefits for Dewsbury is New 5-car 125mph trains on the DFT's interactive map. Is this an error? Considering it's only the more local TPE services that call at Dewsbury, which as far as I can tell won't be receiving the 125mph stock anyway.

Overall, I'm very happy with these new franchises.

TPE is stepping up to have two seperate tiers of service, one intercity and one regional which should solve some of its problems.

Also, there isn't much mention of electrification on the TPE core..

 

[DaiGog]

One of the stated benefits for Dewsbury is New 5-car 125mph trains on the DFT's interactive map. Is this an error? Considering it's only the more local TPE services that call at Dewsbury, which as far as I can tell won't be receiving the 125mph stock anyway.

Overall, I'm very happy with these new franchises.

TPE is stepping up to have two seperate tiers of service, one intercity and one regional which should solve some of its problems.

Dewsbury is going to 3 an hour isn't it - or have I got the wrong end of the stick? Then one of the three would have to be new stock? It could do with its Airport service back, it was a mistake when they were withdrawn.

 

[IanXC]

Hull won't like it but the Hull service is set to be one of the 'semi-fast' services via Guide Bridge which will include calls at smaller stations between Manchester and Leeds.

The fasts will be:
Manchester Airport to Newcastle
Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough
Liverpool to Edinburgh via Chat Moss & York
Liverpool to Scarborough via Chat Moss

I'm cautiously optimistic that the Manchester Piccadilly - Leeds service shown in First's maps will at least provide some of the stopping service.

 

[Iskra]

I'm cautiously optimistic that the Manchester Piccadilly - Leeds service shown in First's maps will at least provide some of the stopping service.

That's what I'm expecting too.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm cautiously optimistic that the Manchester Piccadilly - Leeds service shown in First's maps will at least provide some of the stopping service.

The plan for 6tph on North TPE has been for 2 services to run as 'semi-fasts' and 4 to run as express, so it's likely the Manchester-Leeds will only do Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Dewsbury and half the other stations, with the Hull service expected to do Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Dewsbury and the other half.

 

[sprinterguy]

Also, there isn't much mention of electrification on the TPE core..

The Transpennine franchise runs to March 2023, and, based on the restarted schedule, Transpennine north electrification is only due to be completed "by the end of 2022", so even if it is completed on schedule the new TPE franchise will barely get a look in.

 

[Haydn1971]

Hmmm... Whilst the new five car units sound like a improvement, will these end up replacing the crowded six car units in peak ?

 

[northwichcat]

Dewsbury is going to 3 an hour isn't it - or have I got the wrong end of the stick? Then one of the three would have to be new stock?

Dewsbury was expected to just get the semi-fast services stopping there but the ITT did mention an additional service which would require one of the express services to stop there as well.

 

[Iskra]

The Transpennine franchise runs to March 2023, and, based on the restarted schedule, Transpennine north electrification is only due to be completed "by the end of 2022", so even if it is completed on schedule the new TPE franchise will barely get a look in.

Fair point.

Hmmm... Whilst the new five car units sound like a improvement, will these end up replacing the crowded six car units in peak ?

They could easily have a similar or even better capacity than 2x3 car units, due to less cab space, only one accessible toilet, one first class section and an overall more efficient carriage design.

Dewsbury was expected to just get the semi-fast services stopping there but the ITT did mention an additional service which would require one of the express services to stop there as well.

As it stands, it looks like Dewsbury is getting 3 semi-fasts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hmmm... Whilst the new five car units sound like a improvement, will these end up replacing the crowded six car units in peak ?

Even if they do, if that's 5x26m with the IEP layout that's been shown so far, that will be a substantial capacity increase.

Though I have a feeling they may regret not going for 6.

 

[Camden]

Two per hour to Newcastle, seems to be made up of a Liverpool to Edinburgh via Newcastle, plus a Manchester Airport to Newcastle. The Liverpool to Scarborough appears to remain as is, save for its planned rerouting away from Warrington.

Appears where? I'm dismissing the maps as above, as I suspect they may be wrong. Can you provide a document stating this?

 

[159220]

Question. Why can the new trains not be the Siemens Desiro Verve as launched (some could say to good timing) earlier this year:

http://www.globalrailnews.com/2015/05/13/siemens-reveals-125mph-emu-for-uk/

Would match the Class 185 in terms for suitability for usage but would be a 125 EMU - perhaps bi-mode?

TPE have been a loyal Siemens customer, which Siemens investing in maintenance depots across the TPE network.....

I just do not think an AT300 is suitable - an AT200 perhaps yes....

 

[185143]

Worst news in the world that the incompetent worst group have won it again!:mad:

 

[Camden]

People do adjust their travel habits to make their journeys more comfortable. A wedged-out 3 car train at 1710 will see some people choose to catch a 6 car at 1720, for example, even if it is marginally less convenient time-wise. In the new world, if 5 car trains depart at 1705, 1720 and 1735, then the load will spread better between them. Furthermore, if the 5-car 1705 becomes overly stuffed, some will gravitate to the 5-car 1720 (or even 1650 if it suits them) if there is usually more room.

Which mystery places have these frequencies in the north? I assume Leeds and Manchester, yes they do have good frequencies. However many places have just one or two transpennine trains an hour, and it is obviously these people I am talking about who don't have the luxury of skipping a train and getting one 10 minutes later.

I would say though that even with Manchester to Leeds, if passenger growth is aimed for the use of five carriages instead of the whole platform length may be regretted in future, if (like the tube) you know that the one 10 minutes behind is going to be just as full.

 

[HH]

Worst news in the world that the incompetent worst group have won it again!:mad:

Obviously not that incompetent then...