WCML Preston-Carlisle: prospects for Monday

[TheManOnThe172]

I am helping an elderly person stuck in Edinburgh, trying to get home to Cumbria by train. She's had two extra nights (Sat and Sun) so far: the question is whether to extend her hotel booking for Monday night now (rates a bit cheaper before the day itself).

Could anybody who knows the extent of damage between Carlisle and Preston venture an opinion on whether there is a reasonable chance of trains on that section during Monday?

And if no trains, how much better does the weather need to get before the TOCs decide that they are safe/morally obliged to offer a viable coach replacement for that section?

Thanks

John

 

[PHILIPE]

I am helping an elderly person stuck in Edinburgh, trying to get home to Cumbria by train. She's had two extra nights (Sat and Sun) so far: the question is whether to extend her hotel booking for Monday night now (rates a bit cheaper before the day itself).

Could anybody who knows the extent of damage between Carlisle and Preston venture an opinion on whether there is a reasonable chance of trains on that section during Monday?

And if no trains, how much better does the weather need to get before the TOCs decide that they are safe/morally obliged to offer a viable coach replacement for that section?

Thanks

John

I'm afraid it may be in the lap of the Gods. Definitely not open before Monday. There has been trouble using busses due Road Closures.

 

[Adam0984]

I'd stay an extra night. Even if the line is open Monday its gonna be chaotic and trains will be ram jammed

 

[Darandio]

Bear in mind that part of the line at Carlisle is under several feet of water currently, with the peak not due to arrive for another hour.

 

[howittpie]

Have you thought about National Express they seem to be running ok with slight delays. There are a couple of direct coaches tomorrow morning to Carlisle with seats available.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And if no trains, how much better does the weather need to get before the TOCs decide that they are safe/morally obliged to offer a viable coach replacement for that section?

I do find it interesting that TOCs are much less willing these days to put buses on in cases of bad weather, even where National Express and Megabus continue to operate. The former said this morning no outright cancellations, just serious delays.

Why is this allowed to be the case?

Why, similarly, are VT not required to serve Lancaster in some form in situtions where fTPE seem able to do so?

FWIW, I find it interesting I read on Twitter the same unacceptable lack of information at Preston as last week - and that's with people kipping on the floor as well.

VT, and in particular Preston station staff based on experience last week, showing a very poor side here in my view.

 

[Elecman]

Are Virgin and TPE going to claim no responsibility for Delay Repay because of the severity of the weather?

 

[323235]

perhaps it is to do with the operational risk of turning round there? Are TPE using electric or diesel units?

 

[howittpie]

From looking at coach tracker I would say average delay 20 to 30 minutes on Nat Ex.

 

[amcluesent]

Not good, I'd say.

Flooded West Coast main line north of Carlisle (https://twitter.com/search?q=nationalrailenq)

 

[Robertj21a]

.
Book another night, or book a seat on the coaches.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not good, I'd say.

Flooded West Coast main line north of Carlisle (https://twitter.com/search?q=nationalrailenq)

Yes, I think it could easily be a week or so before trains run. But if the M6 is not closed, why are there not replacement buses? Not providing them with the slightest excuse seems a recent fad, as it is clearly safe to operate them on the main routes because Nat Ex and Megabus are operating. Why?
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perhaps it is to do with the operational risk of turning round there? Are TPE using electric or diesel units?

Diesel (Barrow services). If the wires are turned off that could be an issue for VT, but where are all those Voyagers when you need them? Perhaps not possible yesterday, but an overnight shuffle of them into place would be workable today.

 

[najaB]

I do find it interesting that TOCs are much less willing these days to put buses on in cases of bad weather, even where National Express and Megabus continue to operate. The former said this morning no outright cancellations, just serious delays.

Why is this allowed to be the case?

It could be as simple as NatEx and Megabus already have the vehicles and drivers and will be paying for them whether they run or not, where the TOCs have to find someone willing to call drivers in. If I was a driver asked to do overtime in weather like yesterday I'd probably say "Thanks, but I'll give it a miss."

 

[Bletchleyite]

It could be as simple as NatEx and Megabus already have the vehicles and drivers and will be paying for them whether they run or not, where the TOCs have to find someone willing to call drivers in. If I was a driver asked to do overtime in weather like yesterday I'd probably say "Thanks, but I'll give it a miss."

Then be honest with passengers that that is the reason (using a professional wording like "we cannot obtain enough replacement buses as coach companies are unable to provide them". They bandy about "safety reasons" almost as much as airlines and airports like using "security reasons" to justify things caused by nothing of the sort.

Mind you, at Preston last week, it would have been good to be told anything at all, and it sounds like this week was as bad. It was an embarrassment.

Now it's happened 2 weeks running, will VT get an effective written crisis communications plan in place? It will clearly happen again, and when it does they should know what to do straight away, and communicate accordingly.

 

[najaB]

Then be honest with passengers that that is the reason (using a professional wording like "we cannot obtain enough replacement buses as coach companies are unable to provide them". They bandy about "safety reasons" almost as much as airlines and airports like using "security reasons" to justify things caused by nothing of the sort.

I have seen them say something very similar in the past. Though, if they called the coach companies and the answer was "No, it's too bad out there mate." then they weren't lying about it being safety-related and also aren't ****ing on the coach companies they they're possibly going to be depending on for the next few days.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have seen them say something very similar in the past. Though, if they called the coach companies and the answer was "No, it's too bad out there mate." then they weren't lying about it being safety-related and also aren't ****ing on the coach companies they they're possibly going to be depending on for the next few days.

They are, however, ****ing on the passengers. They don't need to name the coach companies, so there will be no loss of reputation.

It's the corporate mushroom effect, and it's unacceptable. But quite apart from that, even if they were refusing, that was not being communicated. Nothing was. Crowds of passengers were being left around the station with no information, and the PA and PIS were not being used for anything other than the few operating services.

They didn't even think to tell people they could turn around and go back for free, say, even when there were still services back to Euston. Why not? Better than kipping on a station.

Also, again witness Twitter, people don't know how railway ticketing works. "You can use services tomorrow" to many means "you have to queue up and rebook for tomorrow" as airlines do. No attempt to tell people that.

It was utterly appalling. No other word for it.

 

[darloscott]

I know a company from Durham sent a handful of coaches over to Carlisle, but they had to withdraw them eventually to ensure that they were able to get home.

 

[JaJaWa]

Are Virgin and TPE going to claim no responsibility for Delay Repay because of the severity of the weather?

Virgin have been telling people to use taxis and send the receipts to them to pay so I wouldn't be sure of that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Virgin have been telling people to use taxis and send the receipts to them to pay so I wouldn't be sure of that.

Delay Repay is non-fault; I don't believe there is any get out for it. The simple fact of a delay causes it to apply.

Of course anyone not reaching the destination would be due a refund, not Delay Repay.

FWIW, I claimed it for last week due to the appalling handling of the incident. I usually don't claim it if the railway is not at fault even if I may be entitled to it, but I thought it was handled so badly that they deserved the hit.

 

[LowLevel]

To be fair to Virgin I told several of my passengers they weren't going to get anywhere near Scotland yesterday. Despite them having alternative places to stay nearby and being able to return and get a refund for free every single one still headed for Preston as they didn't seem to believe me when I said what was happening. More fool them if they had an alternative and chose not to take it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair to Virgin I told several of my passengers they weren't going to get anywhere near Scotland yesterday. Despite them having alternative places to stay nearby and being able to return and get a refund for free every single one still headed for Preston as they didn't seem to believe me when I said what was happening. More fool them if they had an alternative and chose not to take it.

Yes, good on you for informing them of that, and indeed their fault if they ignored it. However it seems you may have been in the minority.

 

[najaB]

Also, again witness Twitter, people don't know how railway ticketing works. "You can use services tomorrow" to many means "you have to queue up and rebook for tomorrow" as airlines do. No attempt to tell people that.

On NRE they have posted that tickets dated yesterday or today can be used any day up to the 14th. Pretty sure the Twitter team have been saying the same.

Edit: Ignore the above, that applies to Northern services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On NRE they have posted that tickets dated yesterday or today can be used any day up to the 14th. Pretty sure the Twitter team have been saying the same.

Yes, but passengers do not know that that means you can just get on the train. Not everyone knows the walk-up nature of our railway. They need to be more specific.

"Tickets may be used on board any train on Tuesday. You do not need to change your ticket; simply board the train and select any non-reserved seat".

It's one extra sentence, and it's absolutely vital to reassure occasional users.

 

[najaB]

Yes, but passengers do not know that that means you can just get on the train. Not everyone knows the walk-up nature of our railway. They need to be more specific.

"Tickets may be used on board any train on Tuesday. You do not need to change your ticket; simply board the train and select any non-reserved seat".

It's one extra sentence, and it's absolutely vital to reassure occasional users.

On NRE they say "Passengers with tickets for journeys starting or ending at stations north of Preston on Sunday 6 December are advised that their tickets will be valid for travel on Monday 7 December when a normal service is expected to resume."

Pretty clear to me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On NRE they say "Passengers with tickets for journeys starting or ending at stations north of Preston on Sunday 6 December are advised that their tickets will be valid for travel on Monday 7 December when a normal service is expected to resume."

Pretty clear to me.

Not if you're not a regular rail user.

 

[LowLevel]

Latest conference suggests the route through Carlisle will be closed until at least Wednesday.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Latest conference suggests the route through Carlisle will be closed until at least Wednesday.

There's a lot of signalling equipment damaged, but S&T know what's where, and will have been given a good indication of the sections that are underwater, what sections have been under water and any sections that may yet flood, so they can get the correct replacement parts organised today and tomorrow, hitting the ground running tomorrow and Tuesday.

Don't know what if any electrification equipment has been soaked, but that normally is switched out and alternative feeding arrangements put in place, hopefully there aren't feeding and sectioning equipment issues that can't be easily resolved.

Bridge inspections could be the problem - if diving contractors are involved but can't get into the water due to high flow rates, it might be that they're the limiting factor in re-opening routes. There's going to be a bit of reballasting and tamping needed too, with the usual TSRs to go with, but that's not an enormous issue.

The good news is coming up to Christmas, everybody has been stocking up on whatever they need for the Christmas and New Year works, so supply chain should have lots of stock and be able to get everything needed for re-opening on-site very quickly indeed, though it could mess up the Festive work plan slightly.

 

[najaB]

Not if you're not a regular rail user.

Now you are just being obtuse for arguments sake. Your proposed wording would actually introduce more problems - what if they have a VTWC only Advance? Is that valid 'on any train'? What if 'any train' doesn't stop where they want to go?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Now you are just being obtuse for arguments sake. Your proposed wording would actually introduce more problems - what if they have a VTWC only Advance? Is that valid 'on any train'? What if 'any train' doesn't stop where they want to go?

In that case they need to refer passengers to a more detailed explanation.

It just isn't good enough; people are still confused. See Twitter for an example of this.

I am being obtuse deliberately. I am acting like a first-time (and possibly last-time) passenger.

 

[matacaster]

Is there any further information on state of Settle Carlisle line?

Whilst Carlisle may be out of the question, could two services Leeds & Preston -> Armathwaite be offered with onward coach travel?

I realise that armathwaite is not exactly a large station, but a basic service is better than none when WCML is shut.

Paths ought to easy enough as few coal trains nowadays.