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deltic08

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There are people and Network Rail tonight missing the Workington-Cockermouth-Keswick-Penrith rail link.

The West Cumbrian line has washed away in two places between Maryport and Wigton earlier today cutting off rail services south of Wigton. How long and how much will it cost Network Rail in payments to Northern. Had Workington-Penrith still been open then services could have been diverted this way in the meantime.

This just reinforces my opinion of Beeching.
 

RichmondCommu

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There are people and Network Rail tonight missing the Workington-Cockermouth-Keswick-Penrith rail link.

The West Cumbrian line has washed away in two places between Maryport and Wigton earlier today cutting off rail services south of Wigton. How long and how much will it cost Network Rail in payments to Northern. Had Workington-Penrith still been open then services could have been diverted this way in the meantime.

This just reinforces my opinion of Beeching.

Could anyone justify keeping a line open for a "just in case"?
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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There are people and Network Rail tonight missing the Workington-Cockermouth-Keswick-Penrith rail link.

The West Cumbrian line has washed away in two places between Maryport and Wigton earlier today cutting off rail services south of Wigton. How long and how much will it cost Network Rail in payments to Northern. Had Workington-Penrith still been open then services could have been diverted this way in the meantime. This just reinforces my opinion of Beeching.

May I enquire if the tracks on the Workington to Penrith line section were ever subjected to infrastructural problems caused by excessive rainfall which is a known fact in this geographical area.
 

yorksrob

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Could anyone justify keeping a line open for a "just in case"?

It's not for 'just in case' though. It's primarily to cater for intermediate towns such as Keswick and Cockermouth. Diversions are the free bonus. It illustrates the clear stupidly of Beechings policy of closing secondary routes.
 

Bald Rick

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The West Cumbrian line has washed away in two places between Maryport and Wigton earlier today cutting off rail services south of Wigton. How long and how much will it cost Network Rail in payments to Northern.

I would be surprised if the total compensation cost is higher than £20k. Enough to build 20 metres of new track (but no earthworks, signalling, telecoms, land costs etc etc).
 

backontrack

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It's not for 'just in case' though. It's primarily to cater for intermediate towns such as Keswick and Cockermouth. Diversions are the free bonus. It illustrates the clear stupidly of Beechings policy of closing secondary routes.

Quibbling I know, but I wouldn't call it 'stupidity'. Beeching knew what he was doing and he enjoyed doing it. It was for the benefit of Marples and himself, in order to support the motoring industry.
 

yorksrob

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Quibbling I know, but I wouldn't call it 'stupidity'. Beeching knew what he was doing and he enjoyed doing it. It was for the benefit of Marples and himself, in order to support the motoring industry.

Stupidly in the wider strategic sense in that case.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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There are people and Network Rail tonight missing the Workington-Cockermouth-Keswick-Penrith rail link. Had the Workington-Penrith still been open then services could have been diverted this way in the meantime.

If you read what posting # 13 on the "Storm Desmond...Weekend 4th December" thread has to say about the WCML between Carlisle and Lancaster, you will see that any diversions to which you allude above are somewhat meaningless.

It is not just the Cumbrian coastal margins that are bearing the brunt of the severe weather conditions during this weekend.
 

yorksrob

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If you read what posting # 13 on the "Storm Desmond...Weekend 4th December" thread has to say about the WCML between Carlisle and Lancaster, you will see that any diversions to which you allude above are somewhat meaningless.

It is not just the Cumbrian coastal margins that are bearing the brunt of the severe weather conditions during this weekend.

But for Lancaster - Carlisle, there is always the route via Appleby (providing the TOC's deign to use it).
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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But for Lancaster - Carlisle, there is always the route via Appleby (providing the TOC's deign to use it).

My posting was made in response to an earlier posting that said the Workington to Penrith line could have been used as a diversionary route had it not been closed, so seeing as Penrith lies in the affected WCML section from Carlisle to Lancaster, that aspiration would be somewhat meaningless.

I fail to see how a Workington to Penrith route, even if open, could access the route via Appleby as you have stated, as the Eden Valley line that once connected Penrith to Appleby was mainly closed in 1962/3, with the bridges at Musgrave and Skygarth being removed.
 

3141

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Quibbling I know, but I wouldn't call it 'stupidity'. Beeching knew what he was doing and he enjoyed doing it. It was for the benefit of Marples and himself, in order to support the motoring industry.

I reckon that’s one of these myths that develop and get spread by people who weren’t there at the time and haven’t looked at the facts.

Fact 1: The railways had been facing problems from road vehicles ever since something better than the horse was invented. Local steam-hauled services in cities suffered competition from electric trams. After the First World War competition from motor buses and lorries increased. There was a period during and after the Second World War when that increase in competition was slowed down, by fuel rationing, restrictions on the manufacture of motor vehicles and their high prices, but during the 1950s fuel restrictions were lifted and more and more cars and lorries became available. So the competition facing the rail industry intensified.

Fact 2: Rail closures were taking place throughout the twentieth century before Beeching. Certainly, Beeching proposed closures on a larger scale than had happened previously, but why? Because the railways were losing money and the losses were having to be met by the government from taxation, and it wasn’t a situation that could just be left to drift. The solution adopted at the time may not have been ideal, we can now see, but there was undeniably a problem.

Fact 3: There was a public demand for more and better roads, not just around the time of Beeching but for decades before that. The Ministry of Transport was planning and building new roads to accommodate the growing amounts of traffic in the 1920s and 1930s – examples are the East Lancs Road, the Southend Arterial Road, the North Circular Road. The Institution of Highways Engineers and the County Surveyors’ Society both produced plans for a motorway network during the 1930s.

Fact 4: As road traffic began to increase during the 1950s there was a growing public demand for a revival and expansion of the road-building programme. We knew that in Germany they had Autobahnen, autoroutes in France and autostrada in Italy. We didn’t. Some locations became notorious for traffic jams. Staines was an example, where the abutments of the bridge over the Thames that was to be part of the new by-pass had been built before World War 2 started. I remember travelling on holiday from Waterloo to Sidmouth in 1957 and seeing the queue of cars waiting to get through Honiton. The opening of the first British motorway, the Preston by-pass, in December 1958 was really exciting, and so was travelling by train between London and Manchester in 1959 and seeing the new M1 being built. People wanted cars, and they wanted new and better roads. These things weren’t forced on them by the motor industry or the road-building industry or Marples or Beeching.

As always happens, things went too far, and a few lines closed by Beeching should probably have been retained – or so we can see today with the benefit of hindsight and in the light of the way things actually are now, which not many would have foreseen over fifty years ago. If you disagree with that just tell us how things are going to be 2067. But in the context of the situation in the early 1960s I think Beeching was largely right, regrettable though it may seem in many respects, and blaming individuals or vested interests just confuses the facts.

(I suspect we may be going to need a new thread about this!)
 

ivanhoe

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I reckon that’s one of these myths that develop and get spread by people who weren’t there at the time and haven’t looked at the facts.

Fact 1: The railways had been facing problems from road vehicles ever since something better than the horse was invented. Local steam-hauled services in cities suffered competition from electric trams. After the First World War competition from motor buses and lorries increased. There was a period during and after the Second World War when that increase in competition was slowed down, by fuel rationing, restrictions on the manufacture of motor vehicles and their high prices, but during the 1950s fuel restrictions were lifted and more and more cars and lorries became available. So the competition facing the rail industry intensified.

Fact 2: Rail closures were taking place throughout the twentieth century before Beeching. Certainly, Beeching proposed closures on a larger scale than had happened previously, but why? Because the railways were losing money and the losses were having to be met by the government from taxation, and it wasn’t a situation that could just be left to drift. The solution adopted at the time may not have been ideal, we can now see, but there was undeniably a problem.

Fact 3: There was a public demand for more and better roads, not just around the time of Beeching but for decades before that. The Ministry of Transport was planning and building new roads to accommodate the growing amounts of traffic in the 1920s and 1930s – examples are the East Lancs Road, the Southend Arterial Road, the North Circular Road. The Institution of Highways Engineers and the County Surveyors’ Society both produced plans for a motorway network during the 1930s.

Fact 4: As road traffic began to increase during the 1950s there was a growing public demand for a revival and expansion of the road-building programme. We knew that in Germany they had Autobahnen, autoroutes in France and autostrada in Italy. We didn’t. Some locations became notorious for traffic jams. Staines was an example, where the abutments of the bridge over the Thames that was to be part of the new by-pass had been built before World War 2 started. I remember travelling on holiday from Waterloo to Sidmouth in 1957 and seeing the queue of cars waiting to get through Honiton. The opening of the first British motorway, the Preston by-pass, in December 1958 was really exciting, and so was travelling by train between London and Manchester in 1959 and seeing the new M1 being built. People wanted cars, and they wanted new and better roads. These things weren’t forced on them by the motor industry or the road-building industry or Marples or Beeching.

As always happens, things went too far, and a few lines closed by Beeching should probably have been retained – or so we can see today with the benefit of hindsight and in the light of the way things actually are now, which not many would have foreseen over fifty years ago. If you disagree with that just tell us how things are going to be 2067. But in the context of the situation in the early 1960s I think Beeching was largely right, regrettable though it may seem in many respects, and blaming individuals or vested interests just confuses the facts.

(I suspect we may be going to need a new thread about this!)

Good summary. Can't really disagree with any of this.
 

RichmondCommu

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I fail to see how a Workington to Penrith route, even if open, could access the route via Appleby as you have stated, as the Eden Valley line that once connected Penrith to Appleby was mainly closed in 1962/3, with the bridges at Musgrave and Skygarth being removed.

I think Rob was suggesting that trains could run along the S & C via Appleby instead. However I cannot see how this would help the situation if you then were unable to run down the WCML to Penrith and then on to Keswick etc.

For what its worth I'm inclined to agree with Rob that when the WCML is blocked Virgin should be looking to divert trains via the S & C but its seems that there are not enough loco's to haul the Pendolinos and perhaps more importantly that its quicker to bus passengers up the M6.
 
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deltic08

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It's not for 'just in case' though. It's primarily to cater for intermediate towns such as Keswick and Cockermouth. Diversions are the free bonus. It illustrates the clear stupidly of Beechings policy of closing secondary routes.

I was about to respond almost word for word. We share the same sentiments of how rural railways were slaughtered in the 1960s. It ruined my teenage years with unhappiness.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
May I enquire if the tracks on the Workington to Penrith line section were ever subjected to infrastructural problems caused by excessive rainfall which is a known fact in this geographical area.

The lowest part of the line was west of Brigham where it followed and criss-crossed the River Derwent flood plain all the way to Workington. I have no recollection of closure due to flooding between 1950 and closure in 1966 during my visits six times annually but records may contradict me. Similarly with landslips in cuttings during heavy rainfall.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Beeching knew what he was doing and he enjoyed doing it. It was for the benefit of Marples and himself, in order to support the motoring industry.

Sadly I have to agree with you but he was devious in closing through routes that were marginally profitable by cooking the books but ignorant of what we now call contributory revenue causing the closure of many lines to holiday resorts by only looking at their booking office takings which would be low because holidaymakers bought their return tickets mainly in conurbations. As I have said before, this revenue was lost to rail after resort closures as alternate road only modes were used. This amounted to £millions lost annually.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think Rob was suggesting that trains could run along the S & C via Appleby instead. However I cannot see how this would help the situation if you then were unable to run down the WCML to Penrith and then on to Keswick etc.

For what its worth I'm inclined to agree with Rob that when the WCML is blocked Virgin should be looking to divert trains via the S & C but its seems that there are not enough loco's to haul the Pendolinos and perhaps more importantly that its quicker to bus passengers up the M6.

That is the disadvantage of electric only Pendo's or the fault of successive Governments not to wire up diversion routes more quickly where electric only trains operate.
 

backontrack

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I reckon that’s one of these myths that develop and get spread by people who weren’t there at the time and haven’t looked at the facts.

Fact 1: The railways had been facing problems from road vehicles ever since something better than the horse was invented. Local steam-hauled services in cities suffered competition from electric trams. After the First World War competition from motor buses and lorries increased. There was a period during and after the Second World War when that increase in competition was slowed down, by fuel rationing, restrictions on the manufacture of motor vehicles and their high prices, but during the 1950s fuel restrictions were lifted and more and more cars and lorries became available. So the competition facing the rail industry intensified.

Fact 2: Rail closures were taking place throughout the twentieth century before Beeching. Certainly, Beeching proposed closures on a larger scale than had happened previously, but why? Because the railways were losing money and the losses were having to be met by the government from taxation, and it wasn’t a situation that could just be left to drift. The solution adopted at the time may not have been ideal, we can now see, but there was undeniably a problem.

Fact 3: There was a public demand for more and better roads, not just around the time of Beeching but for decades before that. The Ministry of Transport was planning and building new roads to accommodate the growing amounts of traffic in the 1920s and 1930s – examples are the East Lancs Road, the Southend Arterial Road, the North Circular Road. The Institution of Highways Engineers and the County Surveyors’ Society both produced plans for a motorway network during the 1930s.

Fact 4: As road traffic began to increase during the 1950s there was a growing public demand for a revival and expansion of the road-building programme. We knew that in Germany they had Autobahnen, autoroutes in France and autostrada in Italy. We didn’t. Some locations became notorious for traffic jams. Staines was an example, where the abutments of the bridge over the Thames that was to be part of the new by-pass had been built before World War 2 started. I remember travelling on holiday from Waterloo to Sidmouth in 1957 and seeing the queue of cars waiting to get through Honiton. The opening of the first British motorway, the Preston by-pass, in December 1958 was really exciting, and so was travelling by train between London and Manchester in 1959 and seeing the new M1 being built. People wanted cars, and they wanted new and better roads. These things weren’t forced on them by the motor industry or the road-building industry or Marples or Beeching.

As always happens, things went too far, and a few lines closed by Beeching should probably have been retained – or so we can see today with the benefit of hindsight and in the light of the way things actually are now, which not many would have foreseen over fifty years ago. If you disagree with that just tell us how things are going to be 2067. But in the context of the situation in the early 1960s I think Beeching was largely right, regrettable though it may seem in many respects, and blaming individuals or vested interests just confuses the facts.

(I suspect we may be going to need a new thread about this!)

So? Why did people turn out en masse to fight the closures? Why did so many of our citizens protest the closures of the railways? People cared. And they always have.

I don't believe that we should have kept all our lines open, not by any stretch of the imagination. But I believe we needed to keep our lines to Ashington, to St Andrews, to Caernarfon, to Woodhead, to Levenmouth, to Hawick, to Kilmacolm, to Beverley from York, to Colne from Skipton, to Bakewell from Matlock, to Fleetwood, to Washington, to Skelmersdale, to Fawley, to Dudley, to Wisbech, to Thornaby from Durham and from Edinburgh to Perth via Kinross.
And I believe we should have kept our line to Keswick.
 
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yorksrob

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So? Why did people turn out en masse to fight the closures? Why did so many of our citizens protest the closures of the railways? People cared. And they always have.

I don't believe that we should have kept all our lines open, not by any stretch of the imagination. But I believe we needed to keep our lines to Ashington, to St Andrews, to Caernarfon, to Woodhead, to Levenmouth, to Hawick, to Kilmacolm, to Beverley from York, to Colne from Skipton, to Bakewell from Matlock, to Fleetwood, to Washington, to Skelmersdale, to Fawley, to Dudley, to Wisbech and from Edinburgh to Perth via Kinross.
And I believe we should have kept our line to Keswick.

Yes, it's amazing how people are still prepared to believe whatever the Establishment throws at them.

As you say, people were prepared to fight for their routes, but the Governments of the day left them with only the barest means to contest any closures.
 

simonw

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So? Why did people turn out en masse to fight the closures? Why did so many of our citizens protest the closures of the railways? People cared. And they always have.

I don't believe that we should have kept all our lines open, not by any stretch of the imagination. But I believe we needed to keep our lines to Ashington, to St Andrews, to Caernarfon, to Woodhead, to Levenmouth, to Hawick, to Kilmacolm, to Beverley from York, to Colne from Skipton, to Bakewell from Matlock, to Fleetwood, to Washington, to Skelmersdale, to Fawley, to Dudley, to Wisbech and from Edinburgh to Perth via Kinross.
And I believe we should have kept our line to Keswick.

Many of those people who turned out to protest or board the last train hadn't been on the railway in years

What happened in Britain during the 60s to the railways occurred at various times and to various timescales in all developed countries. The difference in Britain was that we had a system that had not been centrally planned and had lots of duplication and that there was a report issued by the Government which concentrated a number of the closures into a small timescale.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The difference in Britain was that we had a system that had not been centrally planned and had lots of duplication.

Look back to the time of the "Coming of Railways" and the time period involved. Those early railways were financed by private subscription and were launched to achieve the aims that were stated in the prospectus.

Then look at what Bills were before the Houses of Commons and the House of Lords in those early decades of the 19th century, such as the early stages of the Corn Laws, which had far more importance in the national view. There was no governmental co-ordination of rail transport, let alone any of the central planning to which you allude, nor for one solitary moment would that matter have entered the thoughts of the Honourable Members.
 

simonw

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Look back to the time of the "Coming of Railways" and the time period involved. Those early railways were financed by private subscription and were launched to achieve the aims that were stated in the prospectus.

Then look at what Bills were before the Houses of Commons and the House of Lords in those early decades of the 19th century, such as the early stages of the Corn Laws, which had far more importance in the national view. There was no governmental co-ordination of rail transport, let alone any of the central planning to which you allude, nor for one solitary moment would that matter have entered the thoughts of the Honourable Members.

I'm not sure what point you make. All I was saying was that in European countries there was generally more central planning and therefore less duplication.
As a result they suffered a lower number of closures.
 

miami

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There are people and Network Rail tonight missing the Workington-Cockermouth-Keswick-Penrith rail link.

The West Cumbrian line has washed away in two places between Maryport and Wigton earlier today cutting off rail services south of Wigton. How long and how much will it cost Network Rail in payments to Northern. Had Workington-Penrith still been open then services could have been diverted this way in the meantime.

This just reinforces my opinion of Beeching.

You really think that Keswick would have still been open? Di you hav eany idea what's just happened in the lakes?

From Facebook:
"Ever cycled or walked from Threlkeld to Keswick? The bridge on the railway footpath has gone."
wIqorlj.jpg



Pooley Bridge, which has been around since the 18th century, isn't any more.


From the BBC:
Mayor of Keswick, Paul Titley, says 200 homes have been evacuated there.

He says: "We'd rather have a 1 in 100 year flood every 100 years, not every six - we were a bit surprised to get another one so soon.

"I think the [flood defences] did work, but they were completely overwhelmed by the amount of rainwater we had.

"The river was 5.4m above ground - in 2009 it was 4.6m."

The line would not be open
 

simonw

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I was making reference to the plethora of British railway lines that were already in existence by 1845.
I know why there were so many lines. The fact that were so many duplicate lines was one reason, as I stated, why the Beetching cuts were so widespread.
 

backontrack

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You really think that Keswick would have still been open? Di you hav eany idea what's just happened in the lakes?

From Facebook:
"Ever cycled or walked from Threlkeld to Keswick? The bridge on the railway footpath has gone."
wIqorlj.jpg



Pooley Bridge, which has been around since the 18th century, isn't any more.


From the BBC:


The line would not be open

Absolutely terrible.

Thoughts go out to everyone affected by the disastrous flooding. Christmas coming soon too. :(
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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You really think that Keswick would have still been open? Di you hav eany idea what's just happened in the lakes?

From Facebook:
"Ever cycled or walked from Threlkeld to Keswick? The bridge on the railway footpath has gone."
wIqorlj.jpg



Pooley Bridge, which has been around since the 18th century, isn't any more...The line would not be open

Nothing like an actual dose of realism to shoot down aspirational posting desires/threads.
 

TBY-Paul

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Nothing like an actual dose of realism to shoot down aspirational posting desires/threads.

Just out of interest, would a former railway bridge, converted to a footbridge, receive the same level of maintenance as an in-use railway bridge?
 
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quantinghome

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Just out of interest, would a former railway bridge, converted to a footbridge, receive the same level of maintenance as an in-use railway bridge?

Almost certainly less. Would it have made any difference? Probably not.
 
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backontrack

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Nothing like an actual dose of realism to shoot down aspirational posting desires/threads.

And nothing like a desire to quash all well-meaning suggestions.

Also, how old is that bridge? Would a new structure, built to withstand floods, fall straight away?
 
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