Possible increase in direct services Wrexham to London

[Phil from Mon]

Daily Post today reports that 3 local politicians, Ian Lucas (Wrexham), Susan Ellen Jones (Clwyd South) and Owen Patterson (North Shropshire) have had "constructive talks" with Virgin about extending the 2 Shrewsbury services to Wrexham, and hope this can be done by December 2016, although they recognise that it will be tight. The article also quotes Virgin as having said the Shrewsbury service has been an enormous success.

If unable to do this they will press for it to be included in the next West Coast franchise.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/number-direct-wrexham-london-rail-10545969

There is one daily direct return from Wrexham to the English capital, going via Chester, while there are two direct services running to and from Shrewsbury.

Wrexham MP Ian Lucas said it would be a “tight timescale” to get the extra services in place by December 2016, but all efforts would be made to achieve it.

He along with Clwyd South MP Susan Ellen Jones and North Shropshire MP Owen Paterson met with Virgin Rail representatives this week.

Mr Lucas told the Daily Post: “It would not only be helpful to businesses and travellers generally but for getting people to North Wales from London.

“It’s a tourist line. We’ve suggested this to Virgin and they’re investigating the matter further.

“The timetable could be changed by December 2016 but we would have to move very quickly and have proposals in by March.

“It’s a tight timescale but we can only try....

 

[thenorthern]

Wasn't there a direct London-Shresbury-Wrexham train until 2011 that as soon as it was introduced Virgin Trains started a London-Chester-Wrexham service?

Going via Shrewsbury is much slower than Chester to get to Wrexham but if Virgin Trains want to run it good luck to them.

 

[Howardh]

Wasn't there a direct London-Shresbury-Wrexham train until 2011 that as soon as it was introduced Virgin Trains started a London-Chester-Wrexham service?

Going via Shrewsbury is much slower than Chester to get to Wrexham but if Virgin Trains want to run it good luck to them.

In that case I would expect them to add a few direct trains London/Manchester/Bolton then!!

Good to see directed services to any town, but what specifically is the case for here?

 

[thealexweb]

In that case I would expect them to add a few direct trains London/Manchester/Bolton then!!

Good to see directed services to any town, but what specifically is the case for here?

VTWC's lack of interest in Bolton remains baffling. Does more passenger journeys, per annum, than stations VT already call at, e.g. Wigan North West, Stockport, Blackpool North, Bangor, etc. meaning nothing to them?

 

[Class 170101]

Surely it would be quicker to extend some of the Chester services to Wrexham instead?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The current morning train from Euston has 2.5 hours waiting at Shrewsbury (1251-1524), which is time to get to Wrexham (or even Chester) and back.
However the return would clash with an ATW Chester-Cardiff service which it would duplicate to Shrewsbury (it already duplicates at ATW Cambrian service to Birmingham).

The early Shrewsbury departure (0639) and late return (2055, 1833 from Euston) are not much use to Wrexham, and the evening service in particular duplicates the current direct service via Crewe (1810 from Euston and much faster to Wrexham).

Changing the times at Birmingham/Euston would not be easy because they have to join up with Voyager workings from further north.
But extending the mid-day service could be a useful tourist move.
I see the Daily Post got the train picture wrong (a Pendolino!).

 

[thenorthern]

In that case I would expect them to add a few direct trains London/Manchester/Bolton then!!

Good to see directed services to any town, but what specifically is the case for here?

VTWC's lack of interest in Bolton remains baffling. Does more passenger journeys, per annum, than stations VT already call at, e.g. Wigan North West, Stockport, Blackpool North, Bangor, etc. meaning nothing to them?

Availability of stock and capacity are the two biggest things. All London to Manchester services are operated by Pendolinos (granted with most of them carting fresh air about Voyager length trains would make more sense) but as Manchester to Bolton is not (yet) electrified Voyagers would need to be used. Also between Piccadilly and Deansgate there are severe capacity restrictions meaning it would be very hard to introduce more services.

 

[dk1]

VTWC's lack of interest in Bolton remains baffling. Does more passenger journeys, per annum, than stations VT already call at, e.g. Wigan North West, Stockport, Blackpool North, Bangor, etc. meaning nothing to them?

You need wires up first. No spare Voyagers to be had.

 

[Phil from Mon]

The early Shrewsbury departure (0639) and late return (2055, 1833 from Euston) are not much use to Wrexham, and the evening service in particular duplicates the current direct service via Crewe (1810 from Euston and much faster to Wrexham).

We have direct trains from Bangor to Euston at 0515 and 0618, so not sure why the 0639 ex Shrewsbury would not be much use for Wrexham?

Wrexham to Shrewsbury is I think about 40 minutes, so the new service would leave Wrexham about 6. The current 0604 from Wrexham gets in to London at 0854 with 2 changes at Chester and Crewe, and the 0700 direct via Chester at 0941. It will all depend on whether people want a longer direct journey, or a shorter one with changes, I know what I prefer when I am working.

Extending current Chester services to Wrexham would involve capacity issues on the single line bit I imagine.

 

[driver_m]

VTWC's lack of interest in Bolton remains baffling. Does more passenger journeys, per annum, than stations VT already call at, e.g. Wigan North West, Stockport, Blackpool North, Bangor, etc. meaning nothing to them?

Many of Manchester's drivers and the rest of the onboard staff don't sign Bolton or 221s. The ones that do have their hands full already with the existing work. Its not just a case of sending a 221 through vice a pendo.

 

[thenorthern]

First West Coast were planning through trains to Bolton although they didn't win the franchise oh wait........

Through trains from Bolton to London are unlikely to happen until the next West Coast Franchise gets underway. Had the Manchester - Scotland trains gone from Virgin Cross Country to Virgin West Coast instead of First TransPennine Express in 2007 I think that we would have had London to Manchester to Scotland via Bolton trains by now.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

We have direct trains from Bangor to Euston at 0515 and 0618, so not sure why the 0639 ex Shrewsbury would not be much use for Wrexham?

Wrexham to Shrewsbury is I think about 40 minutes, so the new service would leave Wrexham about 6. The current 0604 from Wrexham gets in to London at 0854 with 2 changes at Chester and Crewe, and the 0700 direct via Chester at 0941. It will all depend on whether people want a longer direct journey, or a shorter one with changes, I know what I prefer when I am working.

Extending current Chester services to Wrexham would involve capacity issues on the single line bit I imagine.

There is at least one current Chester terminator (I think it is the 1110 from Euston) which waits there over an hour to double up the 1435 back.
That train could fit in a trip to Wrexham and back and still continue its diagram.
But it would clash with an ATW service.

The 0639 from Shrewsbury comes ECS from Central Rivers and could I suppose go via Chester to start from Wrexham.
There's another ECS from Central Rivers to Chester to form the 1135.
That could also be extended to start from Wrexham (but not via Salop).
All easier to operate with the shorter single line (next year!).

 

[jimm]

The current morning train from Euston has 2.5 hours waiting at Shrewsbury (1251-1524), which is time to get to Wrexham (or even Chester) and back.
However the return would clash with an ATW Chester-Cardiff service which it would duplicate to Shrewsbury (it already duplicates at ATW Cambrian service to Birmingham).

The early Shrewsbury departure (0639) and late return (2055, 1833 from Euston) are not much use to Wrexham, and the evening service in particular duplicates the current direct service via Crewe (1810 from Euston and much faster to Wrexham).

Changing the times at Birmingham/Euston would not be easy because they have to join up with Voyager workings from further north.
But extending the mid-day service could be a useful tourist move.
I see the Daily Post got the train picture wrong (a Pendolino!).

Running close to an ATW service is not necessarily an issue. Several of Wrexham & Shropshire's services ran about 15-20 minutes behind or ahead of ATW services between Wrexham, Shrewsbury and Wolverhampton while they were operating in 2008-11.

And i wouldn't be so sure about the 18.23 from Euston not being a popular service for stations beyond Shrewsbury, on some days of the week at least, even if not all the way to Wrexham.

For many years under BR the 17.40 Euston-Shrewsbury was extended from Shrewsbury to Chester on a Friday evening and was a popular way to get to Gobowen, Chirk and Ruabon for the weekend, even if reaching Wrexham was faster via Chester.

A departure north out of Shrewsbury just before 21.00 would slot in neatly between the 20.24 and 21.39 ATW departures, so even if they can't make it a week-round operation, extending the 18.23 to Wrexham on Friday and Saturday nights for weekenders and people returning from a Saturday out in London could be a way to test the water.

Plus the journey from London up the WCML is much faster than W&S could ever manage, with their 18.33 from Marylebone not getting to Shewsbury until 21.46 and Wrexham at 22.36.

An extended 18.23 could be at Gobowen by 21.15 and Wrexham before 21.40, maybe earlier given the acceleration of a 221 compared to ATW's units, so certainly not unattractive if someone wants to do a full day's work in London and be at, say, Oswestry in time for a late dinner to start the weekend.

 

[Phil from Mon]

All easier to operate with the shorter single line (next year!).

It will probably all be washed away this weekend and they'll have to start again

 

[TDK]

An extended 18.23 could be at Gobowen by 21.15 and Wrexham before 21.40, maybe earlier given the acceleration of a 221 compared to ATW's units, so certainly not unattractive if someone wants to do a full day's work in London and be at, say, Oswestry in time for a late dinner to start the weekend.

The acceleration would be negligible due to the station stops, maybe 2 minutes gain at most.