The value of a trade union

[Agent_c]

£50k pa and I wouldn't be able to afford legal advice ?

What 50kpa? You just lost that job, that's why you need legal advice.

You also need to eat and pay the mortgage.

You're going to need £250 to file a claim, and another £950 for a hearing, and that's before you've even talked to someone who understands employment law.

It's £350 if you want the tribunal to reconsider and £1600 to repeat the process of you want to appeal.

I can assure you the solicitor is going to be a lot more than that.

 

[ComUtoR]

You also need to eat and pay the mortgage.

Assuming I have a mortgage. Also assuming that I am incapable of finding other employment. Also assuming that I need that £50k pa. I'm not the highest paid earner amongst my friends and neither am I the lowest. I also came from a job where I was paid less than half of what I do now. Have you lost sight of the fact that many many people survive on minimum wage.

You're going to need £250 to file a claim, and another £950 for a hearing,

Pretty sure my savings could cover that. Are you assuming that everyone lives hand to mouth on the edge of the bread line ?

and that's before you've even talked to someone who understands employment law.

ACAS, Citizens Advice

It's £350 if you want the tribunal to reconsider and £1600 to repeat the process of you want to appeal.

Again you are making an assumption that everyone lives with nothing in the bank.

I can assure you the solicitor is going to be a lot more than that.

Probably and I am not stating that there is no significant cost but it is relative to the individual. I also have a family friend who is a barrister.

Tribunals etc are not common and employers do not simply break employment laws (yes, I know) Whilst I do admit that we are in a highly litigious environment and are at risk from the public the risk from the TOC sacking you without justification is minimal. Yes it can happen but it is a rare occurrence.

Again, to reiterate. If you are at the point in which you need legal representation then there is something that has occurred to trigger it.

 

[GB]

So basically you're alright jack and blow everyone else?

Not everyone is in the apparently rosey situation your in so you shouldn't judge them or their reasons.

 

[DarloRich]

Of course those figures for Employment Tribunals are simply the costs of bringing the action. They don't reflect the much larger cost of paying for representation.

Savings may well pay for some of the costs. I know how quickly savings run out when trying to fund a private case.

 

[BestWestern]

Assuming I have a mortgage. Also assuming that I am incapable of finding other employment. Also assuming that I need that £50k pa. I'm not the highest paid earner amongst my friends and neither am I the lowest. I also came from a job where I was paid less than half of what I do now. Have you lost sight of the fact that many many people survive on minimum wage.



Pretty sure my savings could cover that. Are you assuming that everyone lives hand to mouth on the edge of the bread line ?



ACAS, Citizens Advice


Again you are making an assumption that everyone lives with nothing in the bank.



Probably and I am not stating that there is no significant cost but it is relative to the individual. I also have a family friend who is a barrister.

Tribunals etc are not common and employers do not simply break employment laws (yes, I know) Whilst I do admit that we are in a highly litigious environment and are at risk from the public the risk from the TOC sacking you without justification is minimal. Yes it can happen but it is a rare occurrence.

Again, to reiterate. If you are at the point in which you need legal representation then there is something that has occurred to trigger it.

Oh for heaven's sake :roll:

Firmly in stupid territory now

 

[455driver]

Unfortunately, the union presence at most bus depots is little more than token gesture; they tend to achieve little. Companies still treat their driving staff abysmally, and will dismiss people at will with complete impunity. It's a world away from what unions achieve on the railway.

When i was on the buses the standard career move was branch secretary to depot manager!

 

[bramling]

They don't have a choice. Its all done under collective bargaining agreements.

What about the terms and conditions that are forced on those who do not wish them ? It's just as rich to negotiate for those who do not want a change to their terms.

Again, it is sad that people choose that kind of arguement rather than state the benefit of being part fo the union and having a say in the negotiations and being part of the discussion to help create the new deals.

It is any wonder that outsiders and many on this forum have such a negative view of how we operate the union.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I've been in the job for quite some time and been a very active member of the union. I'm also quite a regular at branch. Should I really need to defend myself or is it usual for that arguement to be used when views are challenged.

We are well paid and I like to belive people are capable of paying for legal advice rather than fearmongering. We all have different financial positions but treating people like their paupers and using it as a scare tactic does not represent the union that I am a member of.

I have had cause to seek advice in previous employments and have sought advice whilst being a Driver. ACAS are just one body who can offer that advice and I didn't pay a penny.

As mentioned, IF you are are in such a position where you need serious legal advice then you really need to consider how you got there. It's also worth mentioning that if its got that far then its very much too late. The unions are there to help prevent it getting to that point.

Some interesting points there. One thing I would say is one shouldn't see the union as a vehicle for getting out of trouble if one does something wrong, and then being a ****taker with a feeling of being untouchable. This isn't what the union is there for, and in any case the union can only enforce company policies. Certainly some people seem to think their rep is there to get them out of trouble. They are, but that facility is not there to be abused.

The flip side of the coin is that it *is* possible to end up in the **** by a genuine error, or (heavn forbid!) a manager making an error in interpreting something. Some drivers are fine fighting their own corner, but if you get into the realms of legel matters then the legal cover is invaluable. Like any insurance policy, it's for the individual to weigh up whether the union subs are a price worth paying.

 

[Agent_c]

Assuming I have a mortgage. Also assuming that I am incapable of finding other employment. Also assuming that I need that £50k pa. I'm not the highest paid earner amongst my friends and neither am I the lowest. I also came from a job where I was paid less than half of what I do now. Have you lost sight of the fact that many many people survive on minimum wage.

Fine, rent instead of mortgage if you're not paying the mortgage. Of course that hardly makes your case as rent is likely higher.

Yes, many people do live on minimum wage, living in small places that they're currently paying for. You're probably not living on that kind of place if you've until yesterday been living on 50k. Since you're a renter you've got 1-5 months to run on your lease, and you'll need to find free cash for a deposit, first months rent and, presuming you do not live in Scotland, a heck load of agency fees to boot.

I would be surprised if you could be fired from a 50kpa driving job and expect to the next day, or even the next week, start in a job that would let you live a comparable lifestyle.

Pretty sure my savings could cover that. Are you assuming that everyone lives hand to mouth on the edge of the bread line ?

Not many people have that kind of cash to throw around, especially if they have more immediate shelter/food concerns.

ACAS, Citizens Advice

ACAS are a conciliatory service, they won't take anything to an employment tribunal.

Not all CABs are in a position to offer employment advice, and not all of those who can offer advice can offer an advocacy service.

And neither is going to give you £1200 to get your claim started.

Again you are making an assumption that everyone lives with nothing in the bank.

The average UK household has 10k in unsecured debt. I'm confident that having the kind of free cash to gamble on an employment tribunal when faced with immediate pressing needs is the exception, not the rule.

Tribunals etc are not common and employers do not simply break employment laws (yes, I know) Whilst I do admit that we are in a highly litigious environment and are at risk from the public the risk from the TOC sacking you without justification is minimal. Yes it can happen but it is a rare occurrence.

25k cases in Q2 2015.

Before the government made it unaffordable, there was 75k a quarter.
I guess 300k pa is rare for you....

 

[ComUtoR]

So basically you're alright jack and blow everyone else?

Not everyone is in the apparently rosey situation your in so you shouldn't judge them or their reasons.

How am I saying blow everyone else ? Neither am I "rosey" Telling people they cant afford legal action is making the same judgements.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

How am I saying blow everyone else ? Neither am I "rosey" Telling people they cant afford legal action is making the same judgements.

Telling people legal representation is eye wateringly expensive is realism - I've dealt with people where them asking how the weather is during a conference call adds £50 onto the bill.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I would be surprised if you could be fired from a 50kpa driving job and expect to the next day, or even the next week, start in a job that would let you live a comparable lifestyle.

Outside of the UK rail industry, how many UK-based transport-based jobs are there that pay the "50k p.a." salary to which you refer to in this extract above from your posting response?

 

[ComUtoR]

Telling people legal representation is eye wateringly expensive is realism

I have not denied the expense or that people are motivated to join by that insurance plan.

Treating everyone like they can't afford it and using it as a fear tactic doesn't sit well with me.

When someone asks what is the value of my union then I will "sell it" on its good qualities and what I believe that the union and its members represents. So many threads on this forum raise the subject of what the union is doing for their respective grades. Is it wrong of me to support my union in that way ?

For anyone who doesn't believe that I can raise other people motivations to join as an issue I suggest they read the hand book.