How Airlines handle problems with mTickets vs the Railway

[Realfish]

Mod Note: Split from this thread.

Ah, I did wonder that. Perhaps this sort of problem could be avoided by the activation not being allowed until the day of validity (assuming it isn't already like that) - it's rather unlikely you'll be faffing about reinstalling things on the way to the station.

I think mTickets could work for me (I do still use the Arriva bus ones despite it being a little clunky), but they are still a little rough round the edges.

Anyway, a bit OT so I'll leave it there.

Not totally OT. A month ago, flying to Prague, I had downloaded my boarding pass to my phone. I was able to drop my bags and pass through security at Heathrow, but then airside my phone froze (it transpired that I had plugged into my car's USB and through something called 'Mirror Link', the car had hi-jacked the phone's settings. All was OK until I tried to access the airport wifi when the phone locked itself). I was left airside without a boarding pass. Luckily BA came to the rescue, gave me a paper pass and I was able to travel.

I'm reminded of a thread on here a number of moons ago on the dissonance between customer service in the new railway and enforcement. In my case BA recognised the difficulty that I had encountered and used their judgement, this doesn't seem to be the case for the OP - many TOCS (and their prosecutors) don't seem to be able differentiate between an honest customer in difficulty and a fare dodger. Where the railway is selling its product using new technology there needs to be some understanding that passengers / customers might encounter new difficulties - the landscape has changed.

As far as the OP is concerned, I think that it is entirely plausible that (s)he believed she had permission to proceed and was allowed through the gate line - we know from other threads, how 'on the ball' they are in Cardiff.

The only other thing that I do wonder is whether the OP might have ignored or overlooked or had not received or responded to some earlier correspondence.

 

[najaB]

...many TOCS (and their prosecutors) don't seem to be able differentiate between an honest customer in difficulty and a fare dodger...

Just to point out (again) that we wouldn't be likely to hear of the cases where they have done exactly that and the passenger was 'given the benefit of the doubt', 'shown discretion' or 'treated like they had made an honest mistake'.

 

[Realfish]

Just to point out (again) that we wouldn't be likely to hear of the cases where they have done exactly that and the passenger was 'given the benefit of the doubt', 'shown discretion' or 'treated like they had made an honest mistake'.

Fair point.

But there have also been many instances on here where we have seen 'customers' badly or improperly treated and have often unfairly faced the prospect of prosecution.

 

[miami]

The difference with Ba is the boarding pass isn't a ticket. They can look up your ticket by checking your ID against their database, which returns the ticket. Your ticket is used when you board the plane, nobody else would be able to use a copy of your boarding pass anywhere else, or use your ticket to get a flight on another plane.

I've had new boarding passes printed several times, including once when I left my phone at security - couldn't find it, handed over a passport, got new boarding pass , eng I to lounge, phoned phone, noticed bags and coats weren't ringing, went back to security and reclaimed it. Turns out they'd taken my phone out of the tray before I had a chance to collect it. For "safe keeping".

Only 2 months ago I was in Copenhagen, airside, with no boarding pass for my next flight. Asked around and found I couldn't get one until the plane boarded 3 hours later. The lounge guy let me in based on my word and BAEC card though so that was ok.

A boarding pass is like a train reservation, not a train ticket. You rarely see a plane ticket nowadays.

 

[fandroid]

My experience with boarding passes is similar. I have checked in online and then failed, for one reason or another, to get any actual boarding pass before arriving at the airport. The difference with the railways is that the ticket/pass is always linked with some form of id, and you are booked onto a particular flight. The railways don't demand id except for photocard railcards, the tickets are rarely linked to a particular person, and many tickets are not linked to individual train services. What I find slightly surprising is the universal use (in all European airports I have used) of bar-code readers for those boarding passes. How did such a disparate load of organisations manage to implement a common standard. A lesson for TOCs?

 

[najaB]

How did such a disparate load of organisations manage to implement a common standard. A lesson for TOCs?

IATA. As an airline you are free to ignore IATA standards, but don't expect to be in business for long.

 

[Bletchleyite]

IATA. As an airline you are free to ignore IATA standards, but don't expect to be in business for long.

Interestingly Ryanair, according to a quick Google, isn't a member. They also used to use (pre-online checkin) a paper-based manual check-in system in order not to have to pay to use the airport IT systems. easyJet in some places used to use their own IT system for similar reasons.

Back to the topic, the key difference between an airline ticket (in 2015) and a railway ticket (in 2015) is that the former is a record in a database and the latter is an actual physical or electronic item served to you that in itself has value and can be verified without reference to a database.

On the other hand, with mobile coverage increasing its spread, I do see a time within maybe 10 years when the railway could move to that approach, where the ticket is a record in a database, and the barrier, or a hand-held device on the train, would simply read whatever reference you had to it (e.g. a printed barcode, a RFID card, NFC on a mobile phone, anything you like, even just giving your name or booking code), look it up and allow travel on that basis. Once we got there, a reprint could easily be offered if needed, just like a boarding card, possibly for a fee (per Ryanair) or free (per everyone[1] else).

[1] easyJet claim to be online-checkin-only, but they can and do reprint if you are nice to them and don't charge for doing so at present.

 

[najaB]

Interestingly Ryanair, according to a quick Google, isn't a member.

That's because they operate as their own little island - meaning that you can't through ticket with any other airline, nor will they be able to book you onto other carriers if they have technical difficulties.

Edit: Okay, it was an exaggeration to say that not being an IATA member will condemn an airline to a short life, but it does leave you out on your own and you won't be able to code-share or join alliances and all the nice things that airlines do these days. Non-IATA members tend to use the same format for tickets and boarding passes since they want to be able to use the same gate equipment rather than having to invest in their own.

 

[sheff1]

Interestingly Ryanair, according to a quick Google, isn't a member.

Easyjet are not members of IATA either. So 2 of the top 5 (by passenger numbers) European airlines seem to be doing fine without joining.

 

[najaB]

Easyjet are not members of IATA either. So 2 of the top 5 (by passenger numbers) European airlines seem to be doing fine without joining.

But not by revenue. Nor by geographic reach.

 

[Clip]

I'm reminded of a thread on here a number of moons ago on the dissonance between customer service in the new railway and enforcement. In my case BA recognised the difficulty that I had encountered and used their judgement, this doesn't seem to be the case for the OP - many TOCS (and their prosecutors) don't seem to be able differentiate between an honest customer in difficulty and a fare dodger. Where the railway is selling its product using new technology there needs to be some understanding that passengers / customers might encounter new difficulties - the landscape has changed.

.

I'm assuming you had other ID on you like a passport and possibly driving licence and debit/credit card which would've confirmed who you are compared to the database for that flight yes?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm assuming you had other ID on you like a passport and possibly driving licence and debit/credit card which would've confirmed who you are compared to the database for that flight yes?

Because of how airline operations work, it isn't actually essential that ID is shown to protect revenue in and of itself (though it is used to prevent touting and for some security purposes mainly involving checked bags[1]). And indeed, if you check in online and don't have any hold luggage, you won't show ID until you get to the gate.

Essentially, as long as a given "ticket" is only used once at each stage, it makes no odds as to who uses it, other than for the above purposes.

Railway walk-up tickets are of course a little more complicated than that; as such if ID wasn't used checks would be more "woolly", but if all checkers were online (as I don't think is infeasible within the next 10 years) a human checker could see a list of when the ticket was used/checked (in great detail, potentially, more so than a current style biro scribble) and would probably be able to see obvious misuse e.g. double use.

You could also have safeguards like that a particular station's automatic barrier would not be able to be used twice in the same direction by a given ticket, or on a given route, requiring a manual check of the history if used a second time. And passing the barriers, where fitted, at the printed destination, would mark a ticket as deactivated, just like the barrier retaining it now.

This sort of thing isn't feasible now, but the idea of there being blanket 4G coverage (or better) at all stations and on all sections of line within 10 years does not to me seem far-fetched. (This being why I similarly see on-train wifi as being a short-term service - it simply won't be needed).

Edit: [1] That security purpose being to ensure that the person who checked the bag in is the same person who is flying. It doesn't matter who they are, it just matters that those two actions are carried out by the same person.

 

[najaB]

This being why I similarly see on-train wifi as being a short-term service - it simply won't be needed.

Battery capacity may improve over time but Wi-Fi will always be more power efficient than 4G/5G/... since the distances are shorter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Battery capacity may improve over time but Wi-Fi will always be more power efficient than 4G/5G/... since the distances are shorter.

True, but few will turn off the cellular connection on their phone because they wouldn't be able to receive phone calls/texts if they did, and with a tablet the battery can be much bigger so tends to have much better life, making that less of an issue.

 

[najaB]

True, but few will turn off the cellular connection on their phone because they wouldn't be able to receive phone calls/texts if they did, and with a tablet the battery can be much bigger so tends to have much better life, making that less of an issue.

Most phones consume significantly less power when on WiFi simply because they aren't constantly sending data back and forth over 3G/4G. Using my phone as an example, if it's on idle the battery will easily last 36 hours while connected to WiFi but only just over 12 hours if on 3G due to email/apps sync.

 

[richw]

Ryanair charge £70 per passenger if they need to reprint your boarding card for you at the airport. (Or at least they used to)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ryanair charge £70 per passenger if they need to reprint your boarding card for you at the airport. (Or at least they used to)

Yes, but that is Ryanair, a business whose business model is basically built around charging people extra fees for things that are avoidable but only by being meticulous about your travel plans. There is no reason why the railway would need to act in such a manner, nor any particular evidence to suggest that they would do so.

If a TVM will sell a ticket costing under £1, it would be hard to justify a reprint of your barcode for your journey costing much more than that. If there was a huge cost to TVMs printing tickets, there'd be a minimum rail fare of £5 or whatever. At absolute worst it could be the £10 admin fee, but I don't think that is justified.

 

[Airline Man]

Passengers lose their boarding passes ALL the time. It happens all the time. Either they physically lose the hard copy of the pass or the battery dies on the phone. Many people panic as they think they will be denied boarding or will be charged a fortune to reissue a new one at the airport. Not so, At BA if someone loses their pass we just ask for a form of identification ie. passport to prove the passenger is who they say they are. Then pull up their flight details in the check in system. That will tell us if a boarding pass has been issued and we then just print off a new one. It might only take ten seconds! Of course down at the gate we check the passport against the name on the boarding pass and off they go.

On the boarding pass all the passengers details are stored in the bar code.

In short - no problem.

 

[miami]

As has been pointed out, a boarding pass is not a ticket. It's a seat reservation. The ticket is almost always an entry in a database.

To do the same thing with trains, every ticket would need to be linked to a database. You buy a ticket at a TVM, it makes an entry in a database, it prints out your ticket with a unique ticket ID.

When the ticket is checked - at barriers, manually or automatically, or on trains - it has to be checked with the database, and the ticket usage is marked in the database.

If you produce that unique ticket ID you can have a reprint, but chances are you won't have that unique ID - because even if you enter your email address chances are your phone will be flat when you need it.

This happens at airports because the boarding pass scanner is linked to the ticket. If there are flags on the ticket (say you're using the coupons out of turn) it will show up). Tickets are not checked on board planes (they may check your reservation and their own local list of reserved seats in case of discrepancy), so the lack of a real-time connection doesn't matter.

With trains, if you board at Altnabraec and travel to Georgemass Junction, when will your ticket be entered into the system, how will it be checked by the RPIs at either station, or by the guard on the train?

 

[Clip]

Because of how airline operations work, it isn't actually essential that ID is shown to protect revenue in and of itself (though it is used to prevent touting and for some security purposes mainly involving checked bags[1]).
.

Oddly enough Neil I do know how airlines work you know. I have been on one of them metal things that fly. More than once even. Go me.

I didn't say they did to protect revenue or anything else I merely stated that they would've checked the OPs ID to confirm that they were to be on that flight and could then reprint their boarding pass.

And indeed, if you check in online and don't have any hold luggage, you won't show ID until you get to the gate.

Exactly and without a boarding pass you are still not getting on until you reprint one(with that ID I mentioned in my post)

 

[richw]

And indeed, if you check in online and don't have any hold luggage, you won't show ID until you get to the gate.

Having done this last month my passport was checked by the hand luggage scanning people.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At which airport? this is not normal UK practice.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As has been pointed out, a boarding pass is not a ticket. It's a seat reservation. The ticket is almost always an entry in a database.

To do the same thing with trains, every ticket would need to be linked to a database. You buy a ticket at a TVM, it makes an entry in a database, it prints out your ticket with a unique ticket ID.

Yes, that is my proposal.

When the ticket is checked - at barriers, manually or automatically, or on trains - it has to be checked with the database, and the ticket usage is marked in the database.

Again, yes.

If you produce that unique ticket ID you can have a reprint, but chances are you won't have that unique ID - because even if you enter your email address chances are your phone will be flat when you need it.

There are other ways to obtain it. OK, if you pay cash, you're going to have a problem. But relatively few people pay cash for long-distance fares, this will only decline further, and it's those where the problem is more significant. If you have purchased a ticket on your mobile phone, for example, you have an account which contains some of your credit card number against that booking, and your e-mail address. So you could, for example, obtain a reprint from your credit card details, perhaps confirmed by entering your PIN. (The railway does not use the PIN for collection of pre-paid items, but some other organisations do e.g. Screwfix Direct, so it is possible to check it for a zero value "transaction").

This happens at airports because the boarding pass scanner is linked to the ticket. If there are flags on the ticket (say you're using the coupons out of turn) it will show up). Tickets are not checked on board planes (they may check your reservation and their own local list of reserved seats in case of discrepancy), so the lack of a real-time connection doesn't matter.

With trains, if you board at Altnabraec and travel to Georgemass Junction, when will your ticket be entered into the system, how will it be checked by the RPIs at either station, or by the guard on the train?

Using a real-time connection. I wouldn't propose this to be feasible now (though I do think a version of it would be on many lines, certainly around the big cities, with some kind of background processing). But I would say it is certain that there will be blanket mobile Internet coverage of the UK within 10 years. Yes, even Georgemas.

 

[najaB]

At which airport? this is not normal UK practice.

Depends on the airport and the threat level. Pretty sure they always ask for your ID and boarding pass in Belfast.

 

[Realfish]

I'm assuming you had other ID on you like a passport and possibly driving licence and debit/credit card which would've confirmed who you are compared to the database for that flight yes?

Yes, indeed.