Plain Clothes Inspectors at Manchester Victoria

[Clip]

Oh dear. What do you do in an emergency then! How do you escape if the emergency exits are blocked off?

those metal boxes on the top of the doors will be magnetic and will de-energise when needed so that the doors can be opened. Or they should do.

 

[RPI]

Having read the first two pages of this thread I have lost the will to live, tapping someone on the shoulder really isn't unreasonable or excessive

 

[talltim]

Can I now start a new mountain by saying that people talking to me causes anxiety?
Just because a door says emergency exit, doesn't mean it can't be used as a normal exit. The main doors at Sheffield station have fire exit signs, if you couldn't use them there would be no way in or out.

 

[miami]

Some law on the subject of shoulder tapping

http://www.e-lawresources.co.uk/Donnelly-v-Jackman.php (1970)

A policeman tapped the defendant on the shoulder in order to gain his attention. The defendant then assaulted the policeman. He was charged with assaulting an officer in the course of his duty. The defendant contended the policeman's actions amounted to a battery.

Wiffin v Kincard (1807)

It was held by the Court of Common Pleas in 1807 that a touch by a constable’s staff on
the shoulder of a man who had climbed on a gentleman’s railing to gain a better view of
a mad ox, the touch being only to engage the man’s attention, did not amount to a
batter

In both cases it was referring to a constable rather than a member of the public or an officer of the railway, but it seems likely to apply to non-constables too.

Doesn't mean it's not rude, or could (like in 1970) lead to an escalation, and it would be far preferable to attract attention in another way.

 

[Bletchleyite]

but hve hte powers of designated staff under both railway specific legislation and other relevant any place legislation if applied for .

Yes, but not the full powers of the BTP, which was the question asked

 

[Antman]

Having read the first two pages of this thread I have lost the will to live, tapping someone on the shoulder really isn't unreasonable or excessive

However it is enough to startle somebody, how many more times?:roll:

 

[tony_mac]

So is talking to someone if they aren't expecting it. Or suddenly appearing in their eyeline. Or a PA announcement, or a fire alarm, or a door opening suddenly, or a door closing suddenly, or.....

You have to accept that you will occasionally be startled or you would never be able to go outside. It's not a big deal (to most people).

 

[Tetchytyke]

You have to accept that you will occasionally be startled or you would never be able to go outside. It's not a big deal (to most people).

Of course it's not a "big deal", nobody gets maimed.

But it IS rude and unnecessarily aggressive. When someone taps me on the shoulder as their first method of communication- as happens a lot at work with the little darlings I work with- it is really really irritating. I've taken to ignoring people who do it.

Sometimes you have to tap someone on the shoulder if speaking isn't practical or doesn't work- loud music, deafness, headphones- but as a routine starting point of a conversation it is bloody rude.

How many railway staff like it when passengers tap them on the shoulder or click their fingers at them? Well then. That's my point.

 

[tony_mac]

Of course it's not a "big deal", nobody gets maimed.

It seems to be a big enough deal for some people to consider an assault or make a complaint to the employer.
No, it's not ideal, but I don't put it above about 1.5 on the Universal Rudeness Scale. For comparison, sniffing on trains is at least a 2, and nobody threatens to report those people to their employers.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It seems to be a big enough deal for some people to consider an assault or make a complaint to the employer.
No, it's not ideal, but I don't put it above about 1.5 on the Universal Rudeness Scale. For comparison, sniffing on trains is at least a 2, and nobody threatens to report those people to their employers.

Sniffing, to the best of my knowledge, involves no type of physical contact with another person. Hence it should be lower on the Universal Rudeness Scale which is itself something I would like a link to, in order to view this matter.

 

[tony_mac]

Sniffing, to the best of my knowledge, involves no type of physical contact with another person. Hence it should be lower on the Universal Rudeness Scale which is itself something I would like a link to, in order to view this matter.

Physical contact is not, of itself, necessarily rude (e.g. a handshake, preventing somebody falling, when getting on a crowded tube). Hence, it does not follow that all physical contact rudeness is ruder than all non-physical rudeness.

I don't think the Universal Rudeness Scale is available online; I've got a hard copy somewhere - I used to keep it with my 'Rules of Mornington Crescent' handbook.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Lay people do not have the same protection as police officers if they are mistaken, and it is for this reason that most lay people (e.g. security guards, RPIs) are encouraged by their employers not to attempt to detain people.

When Security Guards attend their course which is to train them fully in such matters, prior to them eventually passing the training requirements of knowledge of quite a varied amount of subject matters, how to deal with the public at large over a wide range of situations that may occur is one of these matters.

As you say, employers may well have their own policy in force, irrespective what the training of the Security Officer might have said.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Anyone can arrest a person. However the grounds they can do it on are different.

A police officer can arrest someone if they have a reasonable suspicion that an offence has taken place and they have a reasonable suspicion that the arrestee committed it, or if they have a reasonable suspicion that an offence is about to take place.

A lay person can arrest someone only where they know an offence has taken place and they have a reasonable suspicion that the arrestee has committed it. If they are mistaken about an offence having taken place then they do not have any legal protection from the person they have detained.

In this case an RPI could detain someone for fare evasion, but if it turns out (as in the OP's case) that they are not evading a fare then they are leaving themselves open to charges of assault or battery.

Lay people do not have the same protection as police officers if they are mistaken, and it is for this reason that most lay people (e.g. security guards, RPIs) are encouraged by their employers not to attempt to detain people.

This is all correct, but further to the powers accorded to laypeople by PACE 24a, there are powers of arrest specifically given to railway staff by the Victorian legislation

 

[miami]

This is all correct, but further to the powers accorded to laypeople by PACE 24a, there are powers of arrest specifically given to railway staff by the Victorian legislation

ArcticTroll already mentioned that

In this case an RPI could detain someone for fare evasion, but if it turns out (as in the OP's case) that they are not evading a fare then they are leaving themselves open to charges of assault or battery.

I wouldn't be assault or battery from a tap on the shoulder, however if it led to physically restraining and/or detaining someone who did have and show a ticket there would.

One would have to question where a railway officer's authority ends - at the gatline, at the edge of the railway station land, half a mile down the road? If someone with a valid ticket decides to run from the train, and is chased by an RPI and caught 200 yards down the lane, does the RPI or any railway officer have any powers other than that of a member of the public?

What offence is caused if someone leaves a station by means of an emergency exit?

 

[bramling]

Having read the first two pages of this thread I have lost the will to live, tapping someone on the shoulder really isn't unreasonable or excessive

Not the biggest deal in the world, however I find it highly unprofessional - especially happening out of the blue to someone with a valid ticket. Different if someone has deliberately walked past and ignored revenue staff, but it definitely shouldn't be the first method of approach.

If a revenue officer did this in parts of the London area, it probably wouldn't be long before they got smacked or worse.

It's also bad practice, for being knocked or jostled in a crowd is a method of distraction used by pickpockets. Railway staff shouldn't do it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have we got a north-south split here, perhaps? Down South where personal space is at such a premium, would this kind of thing bother people more than up North?

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Anyone can arrest a person. However the grounds they can do it on are different.

A police officer can arrest someone if they have a reasonable suspicion that an offence has taken place and they have a reasonable suspicion that the arrestee committed it, or if they have a reasonable suspicion that an offence is about to take place.

A lay person can arrest someone only where they know an offence has taken place and they have a reasonable suspicion that the arrestee has committed it. If they are mistaken about an offence having taken place then they do not have any legal protection from the person they have detained.

In this case an RPI could detain someone for fare evasion, but if it turns out (as in the OP's case) that they are not evading a fare then they are leaving themselves open to charges of assault or battery.

Lay people do not have the same protection as police officers if they are mistaken, and it is for this reason that most lay people (e.g. security guards, RPIs) are encouraged by their employers not to attempt to detain people.

answer the question
what piece of legislation makes it illegal for someone to touch another person without the mens rea to make it a battery ?

 

[ainsworth74]

I must admit I'm very surprised to discover that I was assaulted or battered by a member of staff at Euston a few months ago when they tapped me on the shoulder to get my attention! I just they were getting my attention now I discover I've been the victim of a crime...

 

[Aldaniti]

I must admit I'm very surprised to discover that I was assaulted or battered by a member of staff at Euston a few months ago when they tapped me on the shoulder to get my attention! I just they were getting my attention now I discover I've been the victim of a crime...

Quick, ring Lawyers for Them, Shami Chakrabarti, Channel 4.....

 

[Robertj21a]

Have we got a north-south split here, perhaps? Down South where personal space is at such a premium, would this kind of thing bother people more than up North?

I'm still struggling to see what all the fuss is about. As my father would have said, 'a load of twaddle'.

 

[kevconnor]

Quick, ring Lawyers for Them, Shami Chakrabarti, Channel 4.....

I think this is one of those situations that Sue, Grabbit and Runne specialise in.

 

[JaJaWa]

Should the doors not have either a "push bar to open" system or another gateline installed? The station is surely worthy of two gatelines, many local stations have two (even if the smaller one is operated by video link for those with ticketing issues).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm still struggling to see what all the fuss is about. As my father would have said, 'a load of twaddle'.

If that's what he'd say, I figure him to be on the Northern side of the debate. Any Cockneys care to comment

 

[Robertj21a]

If that's what he'd say, I figure him to be on the Northern side of the debate. Any Cockneys care to comment

He was a Londoner.......

 

[185]

The issues here are identical in essence to Sheffield, where EMT tried barricade the bridge - it was a through route for non-revenue footfall.

The solutions I considered..
1) Construct a second footbridge or
2) Segregation with glass screens of the current, narrow bridge or
3) Open up the subways again for passenger use.

Don't think it was well thought out during construction.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

RubyOnRails, I understand your point about continuous staffing of station exists. The truth is that it is a very labour-intensive policy, and with the vast changes in passenger numbers throught the day, there would be the need for large numbers of staff to cope with, say 1000 arrivals within 5 minutes, who would be under-employed for a few hours of a typical shift.

In practice, it can be almost as effective in terms of revenue protection to operate teams of personnel whose patterns vary unpredictably, but who will be deployed to areas where there are known or suspected high numbers of fare evaders on an occasional basis.

As for the shoulder tap. It's clear from the argument between other forum members in response to your issue that this divides opinion. I often feel I travel on a different railway from the ones others on here report. I guess I have physical contact with rail staff about once a week. It's usually a warm hand shake or a kiss to the cheeks with an embrace of the arms. When I'm tapped on the shoulder, I usually turn with a smile and say 'Hi'. It's usually a friendly contact with a friendly purpose. But we're all different. I wouldn't try to make anything of it.

 

[Starmill]

Ah well there we go, case closed - you know how to respond the next time someone from STM Security taps you on the shoulder: with a warm kiss on the cheek!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Don't think it was well thought out during construction.

I think it was in the context of when it was built - a much quieter railway where on-board revenue protection was viable, and one when a decrease, not a substantial increase, in demand was expected.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As for the shoulder tap. It's clear from the argument between other forum members in response to your issue that this divides opinion. I often feel I travel on a different railway from the ones others on here report. I guess I have physical contact with rail staff about once a week. It's usually a warm hand shake or a kiss to the cheeks with an embrace of the arms. When I'm tapped on the shoulder, I usually turn with a smile and say 'Hi'. It's usually a friendly contact with a friendly purpose. But we're all different. I wouldn't try to make anything of it.

Different strokes for different folks, I think - I don't think I have ever had physical contact of any kind with any member of rail staff, ever, that I can think of, and I would consider it slightly odd for me to do so.

 

[miami]

Ah well there we go, case closed - you know how to respond the next time someone from STM Security taps you on the shoulder: with a warm kiss on the cheek!

Just not in Glasgow!

 

[Tetchytyke]

answer the question
what piece of legislation makes it illegal for someone to touch another person without the mens rea to make it a battery ?

Battery is defined by common law, not statute, as the deliberate or reckless application of unwanted unlawful physical force. Physical force does not have to be excessive. Stroking someone can be a battery, as you will see in some sexual assault cases.

The act of deliberately tapping someone on the shoulder would be the mens rea.

Clearly nobody in their right mind would ever actually prosecute it, but that doesn't make it lawful.

My previous post was in response to discussion of arrest; an arrest involves detaining someone with physical force.

As for tapping on the shoulder, I find it rude and objectionable when "customers" at work do it. It's not the biggest thing ever, but it's enough to irritate me.