OVChipkaart refund

[mrmartin]

Hi,

Just back from the netherlands and the OVChipkaart system is really annoying.

You need a €20 minimum balance on it to travel - which is pretty ludicrous as I only wanted it for the journey to and from the airport and a few local journeys in amsterdam. I can understand why they want to do this to avoid people burning loads of cards and doing long distance journeys with a big negative balance, but it seems a lot for tourists who are just going to be staying in one city.

Annoyingly you have to pay an extra 50c to use debit cards and the machines don't take notes - who has €28 in coins on them (to buy one and have enough credit to make a journey!).

Is there anyway to get a refund online or similar of the balance of the card?

 

[AlexNL]

You'll have to terminate your OV-chipkaart which means sending it in to Trans Link Systems, the remaining balance will then be refunded. Please note that the € 7,50 which you paid to get the card in the first place will not be refunded.

For information, see: https://www.ov-chipkaart.nl/customer-service/self-service/terminating-ovchipkaart.htm

 

[radamfi]

Just back from the netherlands and the OVChipkaart system is really annoying.

You need a €20 minimum balance on it to travel - which is pretty ludicrous as I only wanted it for the journey to and from the airport and a few local journeys in amsterdam. I can understand why they want to do this to avoid people burning loads of cards and doing long distance journeys with a big negative balance, but it seems a lot for tourists who are just going to be staying in one city.

Annoyingly you have to pay an extra 50c to use debit cards and the machines don't take notes - who has €28 in coins on them (to buy one and have enough credit to make a journey!).

You actually only need a €16 minimum balance. Yes, there is a €20 deposit, but you are allowed a -€4 balance after you touch in. Similarly, there is a belief you need a €4 balance when travelling by bus/tram/metro, but you are allowed to touch in with a zero balance (or maybe €0.01?)

Therefore it is cheaper to run your card into a negative balance then throw it away rather than get a refund.

The train ticket machines actually accept Maestro debit cards for free, but other debit cards and credit cards attract a fee. Obviously few British people have Maestro, but many other Europeans do. You can top up in cash at the ticket office for free, using euro banknotes.

The GVB ticket machines in Amsterdam accepted credit cards without fee the last time I looked.

Tourists can get a combined ticket for return train travel from the airport to the city centre and travel around the city, so avoiding the need for an OV-Chipkaart.

https://www.ns.nl/producten/en/overige-kaartjes/p/amsterdam-travel-ticket

 

[33Hz]

You can also buy a one time ticket from the machines, but there is a €1 surcharge.

You can also buy e-tickets from NS.nl with no surcharge but last time I checked you needed a dutch bank account.


Overall the most foreigner-unfriendly system I have traveled on. Compared to 10 years ago it has gone downhill. And don't get me started on the loss of "any dutch station" Eurostar tickets.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Yes, the Dutch ticketing system has become a real nightmare to use which is a shame because the network and service itself is very good. In NL, there is a general trend away from cash from small transactions so you will find very widespread use of debit cards for these (however, with no supplement!). There is an RTM ticket machine at Rotterdam Central where you can topup Chipkaarts without a credit card supplement for non-NL cards.
For refunds, I was warned by two NS ticket offices I asked about this during the summer not to even think about it. It seems that it is possible, but refunds can be late and/or erratic. The bit that really gets me is being charged EUR7.50 for an OV Chipkkart which only 'lasts' five years, having had two that have just expired. They obviously still work fine technically, but I have had to bin them. Feels a bit like being obliged to pay for the train wheels first, to offset NS's costs, before being allowed to buy tickets to travel on the train. As radamfi indicates, the best thing is to plan your top ups and take a last journey without checking out that exceeds the card cost....Most NS stations are open so if the last segment would have cost EUR20 then you are, I suppose, quids in!

 

[radamfi]

British people get annoyed with the little extras you pay, but it must be borne in mind that even if you are pay 1.50 extra for each trip (1.00 extra for a paper ticket and 0.50 for credit card use), you are still paying less than what you pay in most rich developed countries. Dutch train fares are absurdly low for longer distance, especially using a 40% off railcard, which many locals have. And if you buy a railcard, your minimum entry balance is only 6 euros and you get your OV-Chipkaart for free. Personally, I'm happy to pay 7.50 every 5 years to get low Dutch fares. I think most British people would rather have extortionate fares like in Britain as long as there are no surcharges.

Now that Dutch ticket machines accept Visa/Mastercard, the hassle factor of having to have coins no longer exists. British people "suffer" because their banks have chosen to not to adopt Maestro or V-Pay (from Visa) for debit cards because there is not as much money in it for them, but that's a fault of British banks, not Dutch railways. Some other European countries do use Maestro and/or V-Pay.

Before long, I wouldn't be surprised if you are able to use contactless bank cards on Dutch Railways and/or use mobile apps. Their ticket gates are already equipped with barcode readers so international mobile tickets that use barcodes can be read.

http://www.metronieuws.nl/binnenlan...-bankpas-ov-chippen-en-geeft-automaten-update

Klanten van ABN Amro kunnen straks als eerste met hun bankpas in- en uitchecken. NS begint binnenkort een proef met contactloos betalen voor het reizen met de trein. Als deze nieuwe manier van reizen op saldo wordt geïntroduceerd, zullen vermoedelijk snel passen van andere banken volgen. Mogelijk is dan geen aparte ov-chipkaart meer nodig.

(18 August 2014)

(Customers of ABN Amro are the first to be able to touch in and out with their bank card. NS is starting a trial with contactless payment for train travel. If this new manner of travel on credit is introduced, other banks would follow suit quickly. Then it is possible there would be no need for a separate OV-Chipkaart.)

As radamfi indicates, the best thing is to plan your top ups and take a last journey without checking out that exceeds the card cost....Most NS stations are open so if the last segment would have cost EUR20 then you are, I suppose, quids in!

Whether the station has gates is irrelevant. You can touch out with any balance. It is not like Oyster where, whilst it does allow a negative balance, you are supposed to have enough money for your whole trip at the start. You just can't touch in again until your balance is 16 euros. It is easier to use bus/tram/metro for your last few trips because you can touch in with a zero balance. Although if you make a train trip with the maximum fare of 25.70, then if you had a 16.00 balance at the start, you would more than recoup the 7.50 card charge.

Because of the possibility of a minus 4.00 balance, if they gave you the 7.50 deposit back when you cashed in your OV-Chipkaart, then you could simply buy the card, hop on a tram and then cash your card in. Then you would have got a free tram trip.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Now that Dutch ticket machines accept Visa/Mastercard, the hassle factor of having to have coins no longer exists. British people "suffer" because their banks have chosen to not to adopt Maestro or V-Pay (from Visa) for debit cards because there is not as much money in it for them, but that's a fault of British banks, not Dutch railways. Some other European countries do use Maestro and/or V-Pay.

Sorry, unusually I'm going to have to disagree with you here. British banks have long used the globally accepted Visa system for both credit and debit cards, and this is vastly superior to having two separate systems, because you know that wherever you see the Visa sign (possibly some cheapo supermarkets excepted, as well as the ludicrous situation surrounding the old Electron cards) you can use *any* Visa credit or debit card. Why would I want a system that was less compatible?

It's the Dutch who have been being picky and insisting on not accepting the globally accepted system that everyone else accepts, in the face of clear demand for it.

Because of the possibility of a minus 4.00 balance, if they gave you the 7.50 deposit back when you cashed in your OV-Chipkaart, then you could simply buy the card, hop on a tram and then cash your card in. Then you would have got a free tram trip.

Why would it be hard to check that there was not a negative balance before allowing it to be cashed in, as London does?

I assume the 5 year thing isn't for money but is to allow a rolling technology update, but it is, I agree, wasteful if the card still works and a technology change hasn't occurred.

As for the Dutch rail system, it is at best average. I'd rather ours, though they do have some features we could do well to adopt.

 

[radamfi]

British banks have long used the globally accepted Visa system for both credit and debit cards, and this is vastly superior to having two separate systems, because you know that wherever you see the Visa sign (possibly some cheapo supermarkets excepted, as well as the ludicrous situation surrounding the old Electron cards) you can use *any* Visa credit or debit card. Why would I want a system that was less compatible?

Visa and Mastercard are globally accepted, but they are also expensive, or at least were until the recent ruling on interchange fees. Maestro is also globally accepted, although not has universally accepted as Visa/Mastercard. I had a Maestro card before I had a Visa/Mastercard and I could use that anywhere I went, even in America. Probably as time has gone on, Visa and Mastercard became more dominant so Maestro acceptance wasn't considered so important. Even so, Maestro is still widely accepted, even in the UK.

Why would it be hard to check that there was not a negative balance before allowing it to be cashed in, as London does?

If your Oyster card has a negative balance then you probably wouldn't bother to cash it in either unless you wanted your deposit back and the negative balance wasn't higher than the deposit.

The difference in London is that, you are supposed to know what your fare is before you travel, and if you travel with less credit, officially you are fare dodging, and there is potential for enforcement at exit barriers. Also, Oyster won't let you travel if you haven't got enough credit for the minimum fare. So if you tried to get on a bus with £1 credit where the fare is £1.50, you wouldn't be allowed on.

Because the Dutch minimum fare where you don't need to pay the "boarding fee" (because you last alighted less than 35 minutes ago) is only the distance to the first stop, that would probably less than 10p, so there is no minimum fare that can practically be enforced. Enforcement is entirely on entry. Exit enforcement is not practical on buses or trams and train ticket barriers are supposed to work unmanned, although they sometimes have staff for customer reasons.

As for the Dutch rail system, it is at best average. I'd rather ours, though they do have some features we could do well to adopt.

I prefer the Dutch system. Why? Apart from cheap fares, services are well integrated with each other and with other transport, even bikes. Trains are timed to connect with each other and still often wait for connections, not as much as they used to, although the connections at places like Amersfoort are generally well observed.

Local trains typically get looped at the next main station, making connections between local trains and fast trains very easy. Where that has been tried recently in Britain, they have given up, for example when Midland Mainline did that at Leicester and London Midland/Virgin did that at Rugby.

For example, there is a "next service" board at Schiphol airport, where it shows you the next service to places across the country. But they don't give you the next "direct" service, they assume you will make connections. Whereas the similar displays at places in Britain assume you will go on direct services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If your Oyster card has a negative balance then you probably wouldn't bother to cash it in either unless you wanted your deposit back and the negative balance wasn't higher than the deposit.

The difference in London is that, you are supposed to know what your fare is before you travel, and if you travel with less credit, officially you are fare dodging, and there is potential for enforcement at exit barriers. Also, Oyster won't let you travel if you haven't got enough credit for the minimum fare. So if you tried to get on a bus with £1 credit where the fare is £1.50, you wouldn't be allowed on.

Because the Dutch minimum fare where you don't need to pay the "boarding fee" (because you last alighted less than 35 minutes ago) is only the distance to the first stop, that would probably less than 10p, so there is no minimum fare that can practically be enforced. Enforcement is entirely on entry. Exit enforcement is not practical on buses or trams and train ticket barriers are supposed to work unmanned, although they sometimes have staff for customer reasons.

All valid points, but none of them detract from the idea that when cashing in a card, they could do a quick check to see if you were in debit, as indeed they do when cashing in an Oyster.

Local trains typically get looped at the next main station, making connections between local trains and fast trains very easy. Where that has been tried recently in Britain, they have given up, for example when Midland Mainline did that at Leicester and London Midland/Virgin did that at Rugby.

I'm not sure it was ever official at Rugby. I do agree over Leicester, though. There are other odd examples for operational convenience, and when they exist they are popular, though - over 100 Bletchley passengers change from the 1816 fast at Leighton Buzzard onto the Southern service. We'd all rather the 1816 stopped at Bletchley, but as it doesn't, the connection is reliable (there is a strong operational reason to hold the Southern service to allow the fast ahead of it even if delayed, and even if they don't, which I think has happened to me once, there's the 1805 off Euston behind it) so we use it.

For example, there is a "next service" board at Schiphol airport, where it shows you the next service to places across the country. But they don't give you the next "direct" service, they assume you will make connections. Whereas the similar displays at places in Britain assume you will go on direct services.

That might be a sign of their simpler network - go to a ticket desk in the UK and they'll print you that, but for most journeys there simply isn't an obvious connection. Though in some stations where those old style departures posters still exist, they have connections on those.

But on other points - the trains are basic and often uncomfortable, the staffing level is very low, the ticket machines (while having a very good UI) limited in the payments they take (and there are no on board sales full stop), punctuality isn't what it was... I'll give you that I'd probably take SBB over the UK system, having as it does most or all of the advantages of the Dutch system but without some of the disadvantages, but I would still rather the UK's system over NS.

 

[radamfi]

All valid points, but none of them detract from the idea that when cashing in a card, they could do a quick check to see if you were in debit, as indeed they do when cashing in an Oyster.

I think I'm missing your point here. I'm guessing you are objecting to the non-refundability of the 7.50 deposit? The primary reason given by the authorities is as you suspected - there is assumption that wear and tear will mean 5 years is a reasonable life of a smartcard (probably an underestimate). But even if the real reason is that they make profit out of it, then I can live with that given it is only 1.50 a year and probably goes towards running the system. IMO that's a small price to pay given the convenience you get from not having to queue for tickets ever, on any form of transport, and if you have automatic top-up, you never need to do anything in 5 years. If they did refund the deposit then I'm sure they could deduct any negative balance from it.

But on other points - the trains are basic and often uncomfortable, the staffing level is very low, the ticket machines (while having a very good UI) limited in the payments they take (and there are no on board sales full stop), punctuality isn't what it was... I'll give you that I'd probably take SBB over the UK system, having as it does most or all of the advantages of the Dutch system but without some of the disadvantages, but I would still rather the UK's system over NS.

I would say SBB is as good as it gets. You could argue train comfort is down to personal preference to an extent. Leg room isn't that great on some Dutch trains where you have facing seats. But windows are normally matched with the seating which you don't even always get on Eurostar or TGV trains, even in First Class. I could also mention that 2+3 seating doesn't exist on Dutch railways, even though they enjoy the wider European loading gauge. I think the single deck Intercity trains are *too* comfortable as I always fall asleep on them! Also the ride is usually extremely smooth. I'm guessing that is primarily due to good track maintenance. Obviously there is a higher proportion of electrification in NL too, so you don't have underfloor diesel noise on mainlines, which some people consider to be a factor in train comfort. Arriva NL's DMUs have the motor in the middle so you don't have underfloor noise there either.

All NS trains have a conductor. You are more likely to get your ticket checked there than in Britain. In main stations there are usually plenty of people to ask for information and of course they all speak good English. They have a lot of unstaffed stations but so does everywhere in western Europe.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think I'm missing your point here. I'm guessing you are objecting to the non-refundability of the 7.50 deposit? The primary reason given by the authorities is as you suspected - there is assumption that wear and tear will mean 5 years is a reasonable life of a smartcard (probably an underestimate). But even if the real reason is that they make profit out of it, then I can live with that given it is only 1.50 a year and probably goes towards running the system. IMO that's a small price to pay given the convenience you get from not having to queue for tickets ever, on any form of transport, and if you have automatic top-up, you never need to do anything in 5 years. If they did refund the deposit then I'm sure they could deduct any negative balance from it.

I don't have to pay for any tickets ever in London, and that's because I can just use my credit card

But yes I was referring to deposit refund in reply to another poster.

I would say SBB is as good as it gets. You could argue train comfort is down to personal preference to an extent. Leg room isn't that great on some Dutch trains where you have facing seats. But windows are normally matched with the seating which you don't even always get on Eurostar or TGV trains, even in First Class.

TGVs are very poorly designed trains in general, really. They go fast but passenger comfort was largely ignored. The ICE is a much better high speed train (albeit still not fully window aligned).

I could also mention that 2+3 seating doesn't exist on Dutch railways, even though they enjoy the wider European loading gauge. I think the single deck Intercity trains are *too* comfortable as I always fall asleep on them! Also the ride is usually extremely smooth. I'm guessing that is primarily due to good track maintenance. Obviously there is a higher proportion of electrification in NL too, so you don't have underfloor diesel noise on mainlines, which some people consider to be a factor in train comfort. Arriva NL's DMUs have the motor in the middle so you don't have underfloor noise there either.

That's the Stadler GTW (Gelenktriebwagen - articulated multiple unit), a very nicely designed unit that would be very welcome here. I believe Stadler have more than a passing interest in entering the UK market, so it will be interesting to see if they bid for the Northern new-builds - a bi-mode based on the GTW or later Flirt would be excellent.

Swiss designed and built, so no great surprise they're of good quality!

As regards DOO, are the Sprinters/Stoptreinen not DOO? Surprising if not.

 

[radamfi]

As regards DOO, are the Sprinters/Stoptreinen not DOO? Surprising if not.

Sprinters have conductors too. It's more obvious on Sprinters as you are more likely to see the conductor closing the doors and checking tickets because the trains can be shorter and less crowded. I now think Arriva and the other non-NS companies are like Scotland where you have someone who checks tickets but doesn't close the doors, so they would be classed as DOO in British terminology. So I've corrected my earlier post.

 

[AlexNL]

All trains operated by NS have a driver and a guard, there are no DOO services. For non-NS services the presence of a guard depends on the contract. If the contract does not stipulate the presence of a guard or other form of service personnel, there is none and ticket checks are performed at random.

 

[33Hz]

I disagree that Dutch fares are good value. I've paid €2.20 for 2.5 km many times this year.


And the anti-foreign card thing doesn't just end with NS. Try using one in an Albert Heijn and see how far you get.

For the record, we did have Maestro for many years but it's been phased out.

 

[radamfi]

I disagree that Dutch fares are good value. I've paid €2.20 for 2.5 km many times this year.


And the anti-foreign card thing doesn't just end with NS. Try using one in an Albert Heijn and see how far you get.

For the record, we did have Maestro for many years but it's been phased out.

You are focussing on the very worst case scenario as they have a minimum fare where €2.20 is the lowest full fare they have and applies for up to 8 km

http://www.ns.nl/binaries/content/a...reizen-reizen-op-saldo-reizen-op-rekening.pdf

So that's €1.30 (92p) for up to 5 miles with a 40% off railcard. A 2.5 km trip in the Netherlands would typically be carried out by bike.

Yes, Albert Heijn don't accept Visa/Mastercard (other than a few outlets such as at Schiphol airport) and the same goes for other shops, particularly cheaper ones. Visa/Mastercard charge much higher fees than Maestro (or at least did until the recent interchange fee ruling) so Dutch retailers made the decision to keep prices lower rather than passing on the Visa/Mastercard charge onto the consumer like in Britain.

I pointed out earlier I had a Maestro card before I had a Visa card and Mastercard. When I opened my first bank account with NatWest as a student in 1991 I had a Switch/Maestro card. That caused problems even in Britain as British Rail International at Victoria only accepted Visa and Mastercard at the time. You could argue it is Britain who "left" Maestro.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But why inconvenience people by not taking the cards? Why not simply charge an extra fee?

 

[radamfi]

But why inconvenience people by not taking the cards? Why not simply charge an extra fee?

Why didn't Marks & Spencer and John Lewis accept Visa/Mastercard for so long, even with a surcharge? Maybe there is a substantial extra fixed cost associated with taking Visa/Mastercard. So if Dutch people are not that bothered about using Visa/Mastercard themselves, it won't be worth upgrading the system to take those cards for the few foreigners who don't have Maestro, and in any case they will probably have cash anyway. Where there are tourists, like in Amsterdam or Schiphol airport, a lot more shops accept Visa/Mastercard, and without surcharge. Dutch business is pretty savvy so if there was more money to be made by accepting Visa/Mastercard, with or without a surcharge, they would have done so by now.

Most Dutch people don't like credit card debt so won't have a credit card except for going abroad and aren't interested in using the card in domestic shops. So there's no real demand from locals to accept credit cards. Unlike in Britain where Marks & Spencer's non-acceptance of credit cards was not appreciated by the public.

Maybe surcharging in itself involves some kind of cost and/or administrative headache and it is easier/cheaper to not have a surcharge if you do actually accept Visa/Mastercard. So where Albert Heijn do accept credit cards, like at the airport, they don't have a surcharge. It is probably easier for an independent corner shop to impose card surcharges than a major retailer, so that is maybe why Marks & Spencer didn't go down the surcharge route.

You might say, "if there is a cost for upgrading the system to accept credit cards, then surely Albert Heijn are incurring it already because they accept it at some outlets but not others?" Maybe that cost is incurred for each outlet.

 

[anme]

But on other points - the trains are basic and often uncomfortable, the staffing level is very low, the ticket machines (while having a very good UI) limited in the payments they take (and there are no on board sales full stop), punctuality isn't what it was... I'll give you that I'd probably take SBB over the UK system, having as it does most or all of the advantages of the Dutch system but without some of the disadvantages, but I would still rather the UK's system over NS.

Have to say that I disagree with you, for reasons stated by others and more. But the most important thing is that Dutch public transport system is fully integrated and designed to get you from A to B where A and B are not stations but the places you actually want to travel to and from. So bus and tram stations are generally next railway stations, timetables are frequent and coordinated, bike parking and hire is easily available, etc. It's simply not comparable with the British system outside of London.

 

[radamfi]

From the new timetable, Schiphol railway station will be renamed to "Schiphol Airport". They care about tourists so much that they rename the station in English.

 

[HowardGWR]

From the new timetable, Schiphol railway station will be renamed to "Schiphol Airport". They care about tourists so much that they rename the station in English.

Worse than that, the airport announcer pronounced it 'Shipoll' in her English announcements, the last time I passed through. A big fault with the Dutch, being so willing to abandon their language and even their names for others (Col Parker, Elvis' manager), - but it did enable them to become spies - see "Mata Hari" and "George Blake".

I have a OVjaarkaart for visits but it's 'anonym'. You have to load it with minimum €20 for use on rail, so I typically give them free credit for 6 months between visits. It does not save anything on fares either.