Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[LDECRexile]

Interesting discussion, but does anyone know if 319s will be doing the biz soon?

 

[PDG1949]

Thank you for asking.

Northern Electrics Class 319s now use and pass through Liverpool South Parkway and pass through West Allerton as a direct result of the Liverpool-Manchester electrification scheme, as shown in stills and films in this set and several earlier sets focused on South Parkway.

I usually try to add colour and context to photo sets, for example by showing diesel stock, Kestrels hunting, quirky signs and so on. Never having set foot on West Allerton before I may have included too much salad and too little meat, given the striking variety passing through. If so, I hope you'll be able to grit your teeth and ignore the incidentals.

Looking over the material shared over the last couple of years I don't think I overdo the peripheral stuff, but maybe that's just a judgement call and I'm biased.

You may have seen that quite a lot of people chip in, all amateurs doing it for fun. Have you anything you'd like to contribute? Given your user name maybe you have some local angles or history which we haven't seen before.

If so, please send me a Private Message and I'll suggest easy ways to share your material.

All the best

Dave

I was sorry to see criticism of Dave (LDECRexile)'s photographic endeavours. Whilst in print it may say 'Liverpool-Manchester Electrification', that is a Forum definition and not an official one. Officially, Phase 1 = Manchester (Castlefield Junction) to WCML (Newton-le-Willows / Lowton Junction). Phase 2 = Liverpool (Edge Hill) to Earlestown, Huyton to Wigan, and Ordsall Lane Junction to Manchester Victoria. As can be seen the Huyton to Wigan electrification provides a link to the WCML at Ince Moss Junct. and therefore a fully electrified path now exists between Preston and Liverpool Sth. Parkway (i.e. Liverpool John Lennon Airport) which Northern have used to implement a electric service using 319s - plus the 319s can now access their recently electrified Depot at Allerton in the same area. So I think it perfectly validly qualifies under the thread title.

I wonder how many people are aware of the tremendous amount of work Dave has put in over the last, nearly 2 years creating a photographic record record of the NW electrification process, which he has made available to all?
Not only is there a comprehensive record of the Liverpool - Manchester scheme, but also an on-going photo record of the Manchester - Blackpool scheme. This involves several trips during the week from home, most of the time by car, to record progress at different locations.

We also have several individual contributors. Dave welcomes these and any others who wish to contribute, setting up their own pages for them as well as including their work in the main photographic record. These records have gained the respect of rail and engineering industries, who have also given permission to include their pictures and on occasions taken worksite photos for us using our cameras. A mark of esteem was the recent invitation to the Network Rail presentation on the Farnworth Tunnel project, which they made available for Forum members.

I think our coverage of NW Electrification would be much the poorer were it not for Dave's efforts

 

[deltic08]

Thank you for asking.

Northern Electrics Class 319s now use and pass through Liverpool South Parkway and pass through West Allerton as a direct result of the Liverpool-Manchester electrification scheme, as shown in stills and films in this set and several earlier sets focused on South Parkway.

I usually try to add colour and context to photo sets, for example by showing diesel stock, Kestrels hunting, quirky signs and so on. Never having set foot on West Allerton before I may have included too much salad and too little meat, given the striking variety passing through. If so, I hope you'll be able to grit your teeth and ignore the incidentals.

Looking over the material shared over the last couple of years I don't think I overdo the peripheral stuff, but maybe that's just a judgement call and I'm biased.

You may have seen that quite a lot of people chip in, all amateurs doing it for fun. Have you anything you'd like to contribute? Given your user name maybe you have some local angles or history which we haven't seen before.

If so, please send me a Private Message and I'll suggest easy ways to share your material.

All the best

Dave

I have no criticism of your work for the forum. Please continue doing what you are doing.

Best wishes.

 

[156441]

The plan is to introduce 319's to the Warrington BQ service from December and also to use Electrics on the 2 additional peak LIV-MCV's in the morning and evening.

This will require a slight timetable reshuffle but essentially the idea is to have no diesal running on fully electrified routes.
The xx:14 MAN-MIA shuttle is also due to go 319 from December.

Finally due to the speed increase and problems with regulation, the LPY-PRE services will become 'class 1' from December with hopes of giving them a better chance of keeping time in and around Preston.

 

[LDECRexile]

1. Thank you Paul and others.

2.

The plan is to introduce 319's to the Warrington BQ service from December and also to use Electrics on the 2 additional peak LIV-MCV's in the morning and evening.

This will require a slight timetable reshuffle but essentially the idea is to have no diesal running on fully electrified routes.
The xx:14 MAN-MIA shuttle is also due to go 319 from December.

Finally due to the speed increase and problems with regulation, the LPY-PRE services will become 'class 1' from December with hopes of giving them a better chance of keeping time in and around Preston.

Excellent!, thank you. Just to put the tin hat on it, are we talking Monday 7th December?

 

[johnmoly]

Thank you for your kindness and encouragement.

Does anyone know if the Lime St-Warrington Bank Quay stoppers are all set to go electric at the December timetable change? I believe that's been the plan for months, but I haven't seen owt recently.

Talking to the wife of a guy who works at Allerton recently, she believes they are due to start in December on the Warrington BQ route but doesn't know the date. There were five 319 sets parked up at Allerton depot yesterday so assume they have the means.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I was sorry to see criticism of Dave (LDECRexile)'s photographic endeavours.

I wonder how many people are aware of the tremendous amount of work Dave has put in over the last, nearly 2 years creating a photographic record record of the NW electrification process, which he has made available to all?

I think our coverage of NW Electrification would be much the poorer were it not for Dave's efforts

I too was sorry to see criticism. I have met Dave and had a pie and pint with him last December when we had a great day out on the NW scheme. Outstanding work Dave - please keep up the great work. We need a "Dave" on the GW scheme.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I too was sorry to see criticism. I have met Dave and had a pie and pint with him last December when we had a great day out on the NW scheme. Outstanding work Dave - please keep up the great work. We need a "Dave" on the GW scheme.

Here here.

Without the excellent British Transport Film Unit and a proper photographic unit within Network Rail, it's wholly dependent on enthusiasts to document a permanent change in the railway network of this country. It is, despite appearances, as massive a change as First Generation DMUs replacing those Pannier steam trains on local services, it just doesn't feel that way because a Class 150 and a Class 319 are non identical twins.

There's a lot Network Rail as an entity should be photographing, not just from a social history aspect, but to help learn lessons for the next electrification projects - silly things like fencing contractors doing one job, the vegetation clearance coming along and revealing more fences being needed. Photos stop people dying in conferences and lectures.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

There's a lot Network Rail as an entity should be photographing, not just from a social history aspect, but to help learn lessons for the next electrification projects - silly things like fencing contractors doing one job, the vegetation clearance coming along and revealing more fences being needed. Photos stop people dying in conferences and lectures.

I had not thought of that excellent points.

 

[Rail Bus]

They are busy out to Earlestown, then pretty empty on to Warrington.
But the Victoria stopper is not busy either beyond Earlestown/Newton le Willows.
The fare system will have something to do with it - Merseytravel zonal fares don't apply.
To Huyton, they are just as busy as the Wigan trains, forming part of the 4tph.
Peak services form a second train to Victoria instead of Warrington.

I thought the plan was to divert all the Warrington Bank Quay stoppers to Manchester anyway?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I thought the plan was to divert all the Warrington Bank Quay stoppers to Manchester anyway?

That's just a rumour, not confirmed by the stopping patterns in the ITT.
The ITT suggests the Victoria stopper will go to the Airport (instead of the current semi-fast).
We'll soon find out.

 

[Class 170101]

I have no criticism of your work for the forum. Please continue doing what you are doing.

Best wishes.

seconded but may ask questions.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Interesting discussion, but does anyone know if 319s will be doing the biz soon?

Just to add to other responses the 319s will be needed on Warrington trains as the DMUs will be wanted elsewhere for capacity improvement.

 

[LDECRexile]

Thank you to all for kind remarks.

Questions always welcome.

Hope to see you around Christmas Graham.

The December timetable change will take place on Sunday 13th Dec 2015, so Farnworth and Warrington BQ should make Monday 14th quite a day!

I found it surprisingly difficult to get a fix on this, doubtless I looked in the wrong places, the attached document gives the bigger picture and the key dates.

 

[Class 170101]

I think Farnworth is closed on the Sunday for final commissioning so don't go Monday and I wouldn't rush out of bed to see it in case of over run.

 

[Bevan Price]

The plan is to introduce 319's to the Warrington BQ service from December and also to use Electrics on the 2 additional peak LIV-MCV's in the morning and evening.

This will require a slight timetable reshuffle but essentially the idea is to have no diesal running on fully electrified routes.
The xx:14 MAN-MIA shuttle is also due to go 319 from December.

Finally due to the speed increase and problems with regulation, the LPY-PRE services will become 'class 1' from December with hopes of giving them a better chance of keeping time in and around Preston.

Not sure that that will make a lot of difference. The main problems I have encountered on northbound journeys are:

1. Getting held at Springs Branch Jn because of late running TP or WCML services.

2. Getting stuck behind late running Manchester - Preston /Blackpool services north of Euxton Jn.

Plus delays to other services using Preston Platforms 1 & 2 can also affect Liverpool / Preston services.

With only 4 minute turnrounds at Preston, any delays to Liverpool - Preston services can mean late departures from Preston on the return service to Liverpool.

One improvement to reduce platform congestion at Preston might be for the former parcels platforms (the original platforms 1 & 2) to revert to passenger use.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Plus delays to other services using Preston Platforms 1 & 2 can also affect Liverpool / Preston services.
With only 4 minute turnrounds at Preston, any delays to Liverpool - Preston services can mean late departures from Preston on the return service to Liverpool.

Odd that they don't reverse out of the way in the infamous bay platforms 3c/4c.
Delays at Balshaw Lane Jn southbound are common, too.

 

[Rail Bus]

That's just a rumour, not confirmed by the stopping patterns in the ITT.
The ITT suggests the Victoria stopper will go to the Airport (instead of the current semi-fast).
We'll soon find out.

ok, I thought the Airport service was moving to via Warrington Central, to maintain 2 fast, 2 stopper on both Liverpool to Manchester routes?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

ok, I thought the Airport service was moving to via Warrington Central, to maintain 2 fast, 2 stopper on both Liverpool to Manchester routes?

There's some uncertainty.
To cover the swap of the TPE Scarborough to the Chat Moss line a Northern semi fast will run via the CLC to Manchester, but it's unclear where it will go (if anywhere).
The Airport service seems to be the current Victoria stopper.

 

[Rail Bus]

There's some uncertainty.
To cover the swap of the TPE Scarborough to the Chat Moss line a Northern semi fast will run via the CLC to Manchester, but it's unclear where it will go (if anywhere).
The Airport service seems to be the current Victoria stopper.

would seem to make sense to run the other CLC semi fast through to Sheffield, taking pressure off the Airport to Cleethorpes service. Always seems to be plenty of through Liverpool to Sheffield passengers on the EMT Norwich service as well

 

[Bevan Price]

Odd that they don't reverse out of the way in the infamous bay platforms 3c/4c.
Delays at Balshaw Lane Jn southbound are common, too.

Using bays 3c/4c would require trains to cross the down fast line, which can also be busy.

And are the bays long enough for a Class 319 ? - I have not seen anything longer than a Class 185 use the bays in recent years.

 

[Rail Bus]

Using bays 3c/4c would require trains to cross the down fast line, which can also be busy.

And are the bays long enough for a Class 319 ? - I have not seen anything longer than a Class 185 use the bays in recent years.

Also arent those bays going to be used for Manchester Vic via Bolton electric service?

 

[Loop & Link]

The plan is to introduce 319's to the Warrington BQ service from December and also to use Electrics on the 2 additional peak LIV-MCV's in the morning and evening.

This will require a slight timetable reshuffle but essentially the idea is to have no diesal running on fully electrified routes.
The xx:14 MAN-MIA shuttle is also due to go 319 from December.

Finally due to the speed increase and problems with regulation, the LPY-PRE services will become 'class 1' from December with hopes of giving them a better chance of keeping time in and around Preston.

The 319's will be going to Bank Quay Mon-Fri only.

There will be one or two DMU workings - 1903 Wigan-Lime St will remain a DMU and the unit and crew come off the 18xx Man Vic-Wigan.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

And are the bays long enough for a Class 319 ? - I have not seen anything longer than a Class 185 use the bays in recent years.

Quail says the bays are 4x20m length.
But the SA says 75m/76m respectively, so a bit short.

 

[LDECRexile]

I think Farnworth is closed on the Sunday for final commissioning so don't go Monday and I wouldn't rush out of bed to see it in case of over run.

Northern have publicly billed closing Farnworth tunnel Sat & Sun 12th and 13th, opening - tadaaaaa - Monday 14th. Overrunning will be mega egg on face, but thanks for the warning.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

One improvement to reduce platform congestion at Preston might be for the former parcels platforms (the original platforms 1 & 2) to revert to passenger use.

Amen to that.

 

[Elecman]

The Preston PCD issue is being currently looked at.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Northern have publicly billed closing Farnworth tunnel Sat & Sun 12th and 13th, opening - tadaaaaa - Monday 14th. Overrunning will be mega egg on face, but thanks for the warning.

Everybody knows what they're doing - the signalling has already been reconfigured at least twice, from the two tunnels down to one, then when the single track was switched in (and the single track has been swapped round too) and with that, the track and associated S&C have been moved around too.

The track itself is all new, new ballast, sleepers and rail, so there really should be nothing unexpected to catch out the engineers and workers on the ground with this one.

In short, there's really, really no reason for things over-running.

But if something comes up that wasn't expected.

 

[childwallblues]

Some people are very picky.
The electrification scheme includes wiring and extending Allerton depot for 319s.
319s also work from South Parkway to Preston.
When the Lime St-Weaver Jn upgrade starts we can have a new thread for the area (which can include the Halton Curve).

OK I accept all the comments. My point was that Edge Hill to Allerton Junction was part of the 1961 electrification.

 

[Dixie]

Went past Allerton Depot this afternoon on a train from Central to Hunts Cross and saw that there was a overhead line gang with a wagon connecting some of the new posts to the existing wiring. A few have previously been connected, particularly towards the end of the headshunt.

 

[edwin_m]

Went past Allerton Depot this afternoon on a train from Central to Hunts Cross and saw that there was a overhead line gang with a wagon connecting some of the new posts to the existing wiring. A few have previously been connected, particularly towards the end of the headshunt.

The wires were apparently down at Hunts Cross yesterday, something of an achievement for a station with no overhead electrification. Could this have been some of the repairs rather than to do with the wiring of the depot?