Bristol to Ludlow via. Birmingham?

[ian13]

Bristol Parkway is part of the Bristol Group, and Ludlow's routeing points are Hereford and Craven Arms.

Using Hereford (i've no idea if one is expected to use the closest routeing point from the origin), maps are BD, CE, WR. (Craven Arms gives just map BD.)

Map CE appears to allow travel via Birmingham (using 2 specific lines in and out).

The Barnt Green line from Bristol to B'ham seems to be the mainline to New Street, and the Smethwick line from B'ham to Hereford seems to be an hourly direct service using London Midland. (Assuming the train doesn't have to actually call at these places.)

Does this strike anyone else as valid or invalid? And any ideas how to argue my case with train managers?

Cheers,

 

[dan_atki]

Bristol Parkway is part of the Bristol Group, and Ludlow's routeing points are Hereford and Craven Arms.

Using Hereford (i've no idea if one is expected to use the closest routeing point from the origin), maps are BD, CE, WR. (Craven Arms gives just map BD.)

Map CE appears to allow travel via Birmingham (using 2 specific lines in and out).

The Barnt Green line from Bristol to B'ham seems to be the mainline to New Street, and the Smethwick line from B'ham to Hereford seems to be an hourly direct service using London Midland. (Assuming the train doesn't have to actually call at these places.)

Does this strike anyone else as valid or invalid? And any ideas how to argue my case with train managers?

Cheers,

Selection of the appropriate routeing point is done through the fare-check rule. Applying the rule to this case renders the valid RP to be Hereford.

So travel must be completed either on map BD, CE, or WR.

Maps BD and WR are for travel via Newport. CE indeed allows travel via Birmingham (or more directly between Gloucester and Worcester).

If you do expect to have grief off of TMs either print out map CE and take it along with you or request they check their copy of the routeing guide to determine the route is, in fact, valid (provided you then take the shortest route from Hereford to Ludlow).

Something I can't explain, but maybe someone else can is that putting Bristol Parkway to Ludlow with no via station gives what would be the fare you'd pay, yet putting in via Birmingham New Street gives the multiple ticket symbol (for the above route) and a more expensive fare... Yet the routeing guide says the route is valid.

 

[devon_metro]

FGW Journey Plan fails attempting that routing

 

[John @ home]

Using Hereford (i've no idea if one is expected to use the closest routeing point from the origin), maps are BD, CE, WR.

The choice of Hereford as the destination routeing point is correct, but not for the reason given. It comes from the "Fares Rule":

from HOW TO USE THE NATIONAL ROUTEING GUIDE
" ... if you are not certain that a particular routeing point for the destination station is the correct one. Compare the fare from that routeing point to the origin station with the fare for the throughout journey - it is an appropriate routeing point only if that fare is the same or lower than the fare for the throughout journey from the origin station to the destination station."

Taking Saver Returns as an example, Bristol Parkway [BPW] - Hereford = £26.90, BPW - Ludlow = £28.10, BPW - Craven Arms = £32.20, so one must use Hereford not Craven Arms for this journey.

Map CE appears to allow travel via Birmingham ... Does this strike anyone else as valid or invalid?

Yes, that's a valid route.

any ideas how to argue my case with train managers?

My advice when using an unusual route is to print out the relevant pages from the current National Routeing Guide and take them with you on the journey.

John

 

[ian13]

The choice of Hereford as the destination routeing point is correct, but not for the reason given. It comes from the "Fares Rule":

from HOW TO USE THE NATIONAL ROUTEING GUIDE
" ... if you are not certain that a particular routeing point for the destination station is the correct one. Compare the fare from that routeing point to the origin station with the fare for the throughout journey - it is an appropriate routeing point only if that fare is the same or lower than the fare for the throughout journey from the origin station to the destination station."

Taking Saver Returns as an example, Bristol Parkway [BPW] - Hereford = £26.90, BPW - Ludlow = £28.10, BPW - Craven Arms = £32.20, so one must use Hereford not Craven Arms for this journey.

Ah cheers (although mention of the fares rule alone made me go and read section F, and get confused),

And I assume it's utterly irrelevant that a ticket for Bristol to Birmingham costs more?

 

[John @ home]

I assume it's utterly irrelevant that a ticket for Bristol to Birmingham costs more?

Utterly irrelevant.

 

[ian13]

Out of interest,

If one just wanted to travel Bristol to Birmingham return on a Ludlow return ticket, would that be valid?

 

[John @ home]

If one just wanted to travel Bristol to Birmingham return on a Ludlow return ticket, would that be valid?

from NATIONAL RAIL CONDITIONS OF CARRIAGE:
"C. USE OF TICKETS
16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket. However, these rights may not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the relevant Train Companies will make this clear in their notices and other publications.
If you start, break and resume, or end your journey at an intermediate station when you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to start, break and resume, or end your journey at that station on the service(s) you have used."

You would not be allowed to end or start your journey at Birmingham on an Advance ticket, because that would contravene Advance ticket conditions. But you would be very unlikely to obtain an Advance ticket for this route.

For singles and day returns, I am not aware of any restrictions and I think you could end or start your journey at Birmingham.

For Saver Returns until 7 September 2008, break of outward journey is not allowed, and it is a matter of debate whether ending the outward journey at Birmingham would count as a "break" for this purpose. I think that starting your return journey at Birmingham is allowed. It seems that this ban on breaking the outward journey will not apply to the replacement "off-peak" product after 7 September.

Open tickets are not sold for this journey.

John

 

[ian13]

It wouldn't be allowed for advance tickets:

"You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/advance_conditions.html

For off-peak tickets, it /may/ be allowed:
"Break of journey is allowed on Off-Peak tickets unless restricted for the journey you are making. If you intend to break your journey, please call 08457 48 49 50 to check if it is available on your specific journey."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/offpeak_conditions.html

- to me, the requirement to phone to find out seems to breach the NRCC "in which case the relevant Train Companies will make this clear in their notices and other publications."?

Thanks for all the help so far,

 

[samuel paul]

Hi

Just had a quick look on national rail enquires and its coming up as a two ticket route so i guess its not a valid route for one through ticket

 

[Mojo]

For singles and day returns, I am not aware of any restrictions and I think you could end or start your journey at Birmingham.

Whilst not technically allowed, if questioned by the barrier staff at Birmingham (unlikely), could you not claim to be using the station facilities (travel centre, cash machines, etc.)?

 

[ian13]

Whilst not technically allowed, if questioned by the barrier staff at Birmingham (unlikely), could you not claim to be using the station facilities (travel centre, cash machines, etc.)?

And if your claim doesn't include leaving the actual station, I don't think that's even a break in a journey.

Hi

Just had a quick look on national rail enquires and its coming up as a two ticket route so i guess its not a valid route for one through ticket

The routeing guide seems to suggest it's valid though, and that's the judge in such matters.