Virgin confirm seeking approval for additional calls in Trent Valley

[AM9]

Although I'm finding this discussion quite interesting, I don't have the intimate knowledge of the times of several services running through the TV line and their connection, to contribute. I find time-distance graphs very revealing of how traffic on lines is managed, especially 4 track ones like the WCML. Unfortunately, if I want to see one I have to construct it from a published timetable and/or RTT data.
I would like to ask those who are tossing possible paths scenarios backwards and forwards, do you have access to published time-distance plots that show headways and junction timings, (either on paper or electronically) or are you just very close to the workings of tables 65 and 67 as well as how they work out on the ground? If the data is available, is access to it something that only comes with various roles in the industry?

 

[323235]

I always felt a bit sorry for Nuneaton passengers. They used to have an hourly Intercity service to London, then suffered months of disruption due to the upgrade to end up with an inferior service operated by an LM unit.

It is only 2 stops most of the time and the units are now 110MPH which is what the line speed was pre west coast-upgrade. I think there are worse places to be personally.

 

[6Gman]

I would just like to get to Leicester and the Eastern Counties without having to go via Stoke and call at every gatepost in the TV!

 

[323235]

Exactly! And it appears that the xx15 Manchester - Euston service has nothing following it fast line through the Trent for another 16 minutes (off-peak). So it could take a 4 minute penalty for a stop.

This is however one of the fast Stockport, Stoke, MKC only ones.



Could the Chesters not be a viable possibility for stops? Noting that it would seem more likely in the Northbound direction as there is space on the fast line following them.

All daytime Manchester services have 3 stops maximum , there is nothing special about the xx15, save for the fact the timetable might make that more beneficial to call at Nuneaton.

I also think Manchester services have more unfilled capacity Off Peak than the Chester's given what I have seen, unless the intended Chester service is a 10 car working.

 

[The Planner]

I would like to ask those who are tossing possible paths scenarios backwards and forwards, do you have access to published time-distance plots that show headways and junction timings, (either on paper or electronically) or are you just very close to the workings of tables 65 and 67 as well as how they work out on the ground? If the data is available, is access to it something that only comes with various roles in the industry?

You could arguably make a good stab at it from RealtimeTrains and the Timetable planning rules. Anything more detailed and you will need a timetable planning piece of software with all the associated data such as TPS (NR software) or VoyagerPlan (used by TOCs) which allows you to graph the timetable, both hideously expensive outside the industry (and that is if NR would allow TPS outside the industry)

 

[AM9]

You could arguably make a good stab at it from RealtimeTrains and the Timetable planning rules. Anything more detailed and you will need a timetable planning piece of software with all the associated data such as TPS (NR software) or VoyagerPlan (used by TOCs) which allows you to graph the timetable, both hideously expensive outside the industry (and that is if NR would allow TPS outside the industry)

Thanks for the reply. I just find it interesting.
I guessed that any ready-made stuff would be internal, I just wondered if someone who needs to get out more had written an Excel macro that imported RTT data and plotted the graphs (semi) automatically. Are charts still used to get an overview of the headways and reveal pinch points?

 

[The Planner]

It must be possible. You need some sort of graphical representation or it is just unwieldly and difficult. Pencil and graph paper is the original way of doing it.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

LM running slow line between Stafford & Crewe adds no time penalty since the slow line limit north of Norton Bridge was raised to 100 mph. Of course it would be better if Stafford to Norton Bridge could also be raised to 100 mph.

The slow lines will be 100mph throughout when Norton Bridge is finished.
In fact the Stafford end is already 100 (under the M6 bridge) but drops to 75 through Norton Bridge for the junction/flyover works.

 

[pt_mad]

The xx15 Manchester-Euston (arr zz23) is followed on minimum headway from Ledburn Jn by the yy25 Northampton-Euston LM service (normally diagrammed for 110mph units, but timed at 100mph.)

If the Manchester had 4 minutes put into it by adding a Nuneaton call, you'd have to put the LM in front at Ledburn instead. This is probably doable by departing Northampton earlier, as the unit already works through from Brum and stands for around 11 minutes or so.

Could be possible then as stopping just the 0915 Manchester - Euston at Nuneaton should only lead to a slight re-timing of 1 x Northampton - Euston Service.

This service would likely call at Nun at 1023 with a journey time to Euston of roughly 1 hour, maybe slightly less. But more importantly would give Nuneaton 1 x off-peak fast Virgin service per day for day trippers or late start business travellers. Virgin off-peak day returns from Nun would then become possible, as Nuneaton already has several off-peak evening services in the down direction.

It would also mean the arrival times at Euston for the first off peak services from Nun would be roughly 30 mins apart. I.e. arriving 1049(LM), 1120 (V.T. from Manchester) and 1149 (LM).

The Down xx20 Euston-Manchester could replicate this as it could just about call at Nuneaton and be away in front of the xx30 Euston-Glasgow (the xx23 Euston-Brum being between them as far as Rugby), before diving out of the way at Colwich.

It would be through Stoke about 3-4 minutes later which might cause problems *but* the Norton Bridge works could help by giving some flexibility in the XC paths on the corridor.

What about the down 1610 (1D90) Euston - Bangor service which passes Nuneaton at 1709? The next two Holyhead services stop at Nun, so surely this could work for a stop?


And the Saturday one I was questioning is 1F22 (1807 Euston - Liverpool) which passes Nuneaton at 1900 (1903 departure if it stopped).
Given the Liverpools an hour before and after stop at Nun, could this be possible? It would give Nun an hourly Saturday evening return service.



Again just speculating here by naming one or two possible worthwhile extra stops.

 

[gray1404]

Another stop or 2 to add to to already longer journey time on the Liverpool service! Great! Personally, I think they should omit Crewe again on the Liverpool services.

 

[The Ham]

I have need to use Nuneaton from time to time and I've always found it to be somewhere which could do with extra services. However, it could see a significant change over the next 10 years what with potential services to Lemington Spa and Birmingham (both potentially on a 30 minutes frequency) being suggested (the latter keying in with Camp Hill works).

 

[nuneatonmark]

As someone is travels every week from Nuneaton and have been part of the RUG campaigning for better services to all destinations but particularly so since the DfT robbed us of our fast off-peak services in 2008, these are are our thoughts based on some of the points raised.
The stats which the DfT used to justify cutting the off-peak services in 2008 were proved to be completely under-estimated and based on a period when usage was artificially suppressed due to years of upgrade work.
'Nuneaton has never had it so good'. Hmmm, In 2008 we lost the Nottingham service and we now have slower services to London and key North West destinations. Yes, we have the LM service which connects more stations, particularly along the Trent Valley but hardly 'Never had it so good'.
It would be far better to stop one of the Manchesters at Nuneaton, traditionally more people want to travel to Manchester than anywhere else in the North West from Nuneaton, particularly if the connections off the XCountry and Coventry services are good.
Why Nuneaton, not Tamworth or Lichfield. Two reasons, Nuneaton is much bigger than either of those two and together with the catchment area around, it's much bigger still. The second reason is connections. depending on the actual connection time, it would be much quicker going from either Coventry or Leicester (E Mids) to go via Nuneaton to Manchester and the North West.
Also, due to massive growth at Nuneaton, the LM services are busy all the time, we need more capacity and it makes sense to stop fast trains at Nuneaton off-peak to supplement the LM services.
If you were to start again, you could argue that the BEST service option off-peak was to have a 125mph service semi-fast to Nuneaton from the NorthWest, calling Lichfield, Tamworth and Nuneaton, then fast to London PLUS two LM slow services which are all stations between Stafford and Rugby, then Northampton, MKC and Watford Junction, joining with the Brum services at Northampton possibly or one going Northampton and one going via Weedon.

Finally, there was ALWAYS been room in the timetable to stop additional off-peak services at Nuneaton, particularly the Chester service, but the DfT chose not to do anything about it and Virgin just blamed the DfT.

 

[Camden]

Another stop or 2 to add to to already longer journey time on the Liverpool service! Great! Personally, I think they should omit Crewe again on the Liverpool services.

If they make it longer now then it can be better promoted how much quicker your journeys will be with HS2.

Until the Crewe stop you were only going to get a 32 minute reduction on your London journey, now that's up to 36 minutes without spending a Pound. If they add Lichfield then it'll be 40 minutes. A few more stops in the home counties and soon HS2 will be "reducing" the journey time by an hour.

Think of it like not keeping your coat on indoors so you feel the benefit when you step outside...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What about the down 1610 (1D90) Euston - Bangor service which passes Nuneaton at 1709? The next two Holyhead services stop at Nun, so surely this could work for a stop?

That's only a 5-car Voyager and is a restricted peak train even to North Wales.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's only a 5-car Voyager and is a restricted peak train even to North Wales.

And as a result isn't full (I've used it from MKC where it does not[1] have a restriction). I don't really understand why this one is peak and the 1710 not.

[1] Actually it did at the time in the journey planners, but that was a wrong implementation and my Off Peak was accepted by the guard. VT are not permitted northbound evening peak restrictions from MKC.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you were to start again, you could argue that the BEST service option off-peak was to have a 125mph service semi-fast to Nuneaton from the NorthWest, calling Lichfield, Tamworth and Nuneaton, then fast to London PLUS two LM slow services which are all stations between Stafford and Rugby, then Northampton, MKC and Watford Junction, joining with the Brum services at Northampton possibly or one going Northampton and one going via Weedon.

I'm not sure why you think Nuneaton justified 3tph fast-ish to London but the other Trent Valley stations don't?

FWIW, the LM service would probably not be overcrowded if they increased it to 8-car. Going to 2tph will make it *busier* in my view as it will be more convenient. It certainly wouldn't if the cheapo LM-only fares were increased or removed.

 

[DarloRich]

As someone is travels every week from Nuneaton and have been part of the RUG campaigning for better services to all destinations but particularly so since the DfT robbed us of our fast off-peak services in 2008, these are are our thoughts based on some of the points raised.

Lets take the emotional guff out shall we. No one robbed you of anything. A decision was taken that it was best to serve the much larger market further north than the small market at Nuneaton.

The stats which the DfT used to justify cutting the off-peak services in 2008 were proved to be completely under-estimated and based on a period when usage was artificially suppressed due to years of upgrade work.

Perhaps - but what other stats should they have used? Selected ones that proved your point or actual usage statistics?

'Nuneaton has never had it so good'. Hmmm, In 2008 we lost the Nottingham service and we now have slower services to London and key North West destinations. Yes, we have the LM service which connects more stations, particularly along the Trent Valley but hardly 'Never had it so good'.

Good services to Birmingham and Leicester and an hourly fast service north and south offering good local connections? Seems pretty good to me.

It would be far better to stop one of the Manchesters at Nuneaton, traditionally more people want to travel to Manchester than anywhere else in the North West from Nuneaton, particularly if the connections off the XCountry and Coventry services are good.

But traditionally doesn't match the usage now. Most passengers in the peak want destinations south of Nuneaton or Birmingham or Coventry. The LM services meet that demand. For instance there is an increasing market for commuting to and from Milton Keynes from all stations south of Tamworth.

Why Nuneaton, not Tamworth or Lichfield. Two reasons, Nuneaton is much bigger than either of those two and together with the catchment area around, it's much bigger still. The second reason is connections. depending on the actual connection time, it would be much quicker going from either Coventry or Leicester (E Mids) to go via Nuneaton to Manchester and the North West.

Tamworth offers much better connections into the core XC network

Also, due to massive growth at Nuneaton, the LM services are busy all the time, we need more capacity and it makes sense to stop fast trains at Nuneaton off-peak to supplement the LM services.

Agreed capacity is needed. The LM Crewe services have been fantastically popular - perhaps because they have created much better and more frequent journey opportunities along the line and between the TV stations in particular while offering decent prices.

I don't agree that off peak Virgin calls is the best way to offer that capacity.

If you were to start again, you could argue that the BEST service option off-peak was to have a 125mph service semi-fast to Nuneaton from the NorthWest, calling Lichfield, Tamworth and Nuneaton, then fast to London PLUS two LM slow services which are all stations between Stafford and Rugby, then Northampton, MKC and Watford Junction, joining with the Brum services at Northampton possibly or one going Northampton and one going via Weedon.

BETS for whom? You or the majority? Fast to Euston from Nuneaton seems a waste of precious capacity but no doubt serves the needs of a few. I realsie you are passionate about Nuneaton and that you don't like getting the LM services but do you HONESTLY think Nuneaton needs a regular off peak Intercity service?

Finally, there was ALWAYS been room in the timetable to stop additional off-peak services at Nuneaton, particularly the Chester service, but the DfT chose not to do anything about it and Virgin just blamed the DfT.

According to the planning experts it isn't quite that simple. I will leave the planning to them rather than the armchairists. Anyway these proposed calls seem to be peak hours only.

 

[nuneatonmark]

Lets take the emotional guff out shall we. No one robbed you of anything. A decision was taken that it was best to serve the much larger market further north than the small market at Nuneaton.

Completely wrong, it's not a small market town at all. Nuneaton and the nearby areas have the population of over 200000, Nuneaton and Bedworth is over 100000, the SAME size as Darlington!

Perhaps - but what other stats should they have used? Selected ones that proved your point or actual usage statistics?

That's the trouble, they didn't use the most recent actual usage which gave a very false impression as to the rise in usage following the upgrade.

Good services to Birmingham and Leicester and an hourly fast service north and south offering good local connections? Seems pretty good to me.

Well maybe it does to you but compared to many similar sized towns, it's not

But traditionally doesn't match the usage now. Most passengers in the peak want destinations south of Nuneaton or Birmingham or Coventry. The LM services meet that demand. For instance there is an increasing market for commuting to and from Milton Keynes from all stations south of Tamworth.

Agree with your last sentance but the first part is just simply stupid, you could apply that to Stafford, Rugby or even MKC, doesn't mean a thing

Tamworth offers much better connections into the core XC network

It does, but not to destinations that you can't get to quicker by other routes, whereas from the East Midlands and East Anglia, it is far better via Nuneaton, also to Coventry

Agreed capacity is needed. The LM Crewe services have been fantastically popular - perhaps because they have created much better and more frequent journey opportunities along the line and between the TV stations in particular while offering decent prices.

I don't agree that off peak Virgin calls is the best way to offer that capacity.

Fair enough that you don't agree but we do, just compare the services towns like Grantham, Market Harborough, Warwick etc get to London to Nuneaton, , usage at Nuneaton has increased more than most WCML stations, there is the demand


BETS for whom? You or the majority? Fast to Euston from Nuneaton seems a waste of precious capacity but no doubt serves the needs of a few. I realsie you are passionate about Nuneaton and that you don't like getting the LM services but do you HONESTLY think Nuneaton needs a regular off peak Intercity service?

Absolutely it does, the usage figures stack up, the demand is there. We like the LM services but they should never have been the prime long distance trains for the Trent Valley. It's one of the reasons why Alliance want to stop at Nuneaton

According to the planning experts it isn't quite that simple. I will leave the planning to them rather than the armchairists. Anyway these proposed calls seem to be peak hours only.

It never is, but we pay planning experts to come up with solutions not excuses. Perhaps if the DfT decided to speed up journeys to Newcastle by a few mins by omitting the 'small market town of Darlington' you might feel differently!

 

[asylumxl]

It never is, but we pay planning experts to come up with solutions not excuses. Perhaps if the DfT decided to speed up journeys to Newcastle by a few mins by omitting the 'small market town of Darlington' you might feel differently!

I don't think he would be massively fussed, I believe he lives in Fenny Stratford.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It never is, but we pay planning experts to come up with solutions not excuses. Perhaps if the DfT decided to speed up journeys to Newcastle by a few mins by omitting the 'small market town of Darlington' you might feel differently!

With regard to Bedworth it makes little sense to include that as it is connected to (and near to by car) Coventry, from which there is a vastly better service which is also available to them.

 

[nuneatonmark]

With regard to Bedworth it makes little sense to include that as it is connected to (and near to by car) Coventry, from which there is a vastly better service which is also available to them.

You clearly know nothing about the area. Nuneaton station is far more accessible from Bedworth than Coventry is, in fact some areas of north Coventry, it's easier to get to Nuneaton station. We KNOW lots of people travel from Hartshiil, Exhall, Hinckley, Market Bosworth, Bedworth etc to Nuneaton station.

Also, re the other response, it says on Darlorich's profile he lives in Darlington and works in Fenny Stratford.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You clearly know nothing about the area. Nuneaton station is far more accessible from Bedworth than Coventry is, in fact some areas of north Coventry, it's easier to get to Nuneaton station. We KNOW lots of people travel from Hartshiil, Exhall, Hinckley, Market Bosworth, Bedworth etc to Nuneaton station.

I am capable of reading a map, and Bedworth is reasonably close to both places, certainly to the extent that it will make any difference when travelling by car (though I accept there will be some traffic issues). Therefore it is uneconomic and not sensible to provide an increased service at Nuneaton for the benefit of passengers from Bedworth when they have the option of three trains per hour from each of LM and VT from Coventry as well as an hourly rail service to reach Coventry if they don't wish to drive.

Hinckley I'll give you but I do not agree it justifies such an increased service. Hartshill appears to be quite small. Exhall is nearer to Coventry.

 

[DarloRich]

I will respond to the rest later as my link timed out but:

It never is, but we pay planning experts to come up with solutions not excuses. Perhaps if the DfT decided to speed up journeys to Newcastle by a few mins by omitting the 'small market town of Darlington' you might feel differently!

They have come up with a solution for their customers. Odd that because that solution omits your town they become excuses. Read some of the "excuses" above and try and understand the issues.

As for the other stuff :roll:

BTW read again what i said about the market at Nuneaton. Nothing about market towns.

 

[pt_mad]

I am capable of reading a map, and Bedworth is reasonably close to both places, certainly to the extent that it will make any difference when travelling by car (though I accept there will be some traffic issues). Therefore it is uneconomic and not sensible to provide an increased service at Nuneaton for the benefit of passengers from Bedworth when they have the option of three trains per hour from each of LM and VT from Coventry as well as an hourly rail service to reach Coventry if they don't wish to drive.

Hinckley I'll give you but I do not agree it justifies such an increased service. Hartshill appears to be quite small. Exhall is nearer to Coventry.

The thing is, Bedworth is actually in the same borough as Nuneaton - 'Nuneaton and Bedworth'. The two towns today are near enough joined give or take about a mile if that. Hinckley's nearest mainline station (disregarding its own?) is Nuneaton.

As for other towns of similar size and ones with a similar (not identical) distance from London and that are situated on a mainline railway - most enjoy an excellent off-peak Intercity service. Examples include most of those on the East Coast Mainline, Great Western Mainline, stations on South West Trains route, Chiltern Route or the Cotswold line.
...some of which are not used for connections.


But anyway all this is splitting hairs as Virgin have already confirmed they are seeking extra stops in the Trent. We don't have to argue or debate for the one or two stops as they want them, so presumably demand is there.


Although the LM bargain fares must play a part in the popularity of the Crewe - Euston service, the matter remains that there will likely still be business travelers and those travelling with unrestricted anytime, off-peak or season tickets that simply turn up to the likes of Nuneaton for the next train to London, and WOULD board a Virgin fast service should one be available.

This would relieve some of the capacity from the LM services as anyone without a (LM only) ticket may well choose to board the Virgin Service if it departed sooner or arrived quicker. Leaving more space on the TV services for those with the bargain LM only tickets.

Presumably these are some of the reasons Virgin are seeking to stop a few extras.

 

[DarloRich]

Although the LM bargain fares must play a part in the popularity of the Crewe - Euston service, the matter remains that there will likely still be business travelers and those travelling with unrestricted anytime, off-peak or season tickets that simply turn up to the likes of Nuneaton for the next train to London, and WOULD board a Virgin fast service should one be available.

This would relieve some of the capacity from the LM services as anyone without a (LM only) ticket may well choose to board the Virgin Service if it departed sooner or arrived quicker. Leaving more space on the TV services for those with the bargain LM only tickets.

Presumably these are some of the reasons Virgin are seeking to stop a few extras.

Virgin want to stop there as they have seen that people will commute to Euston and Milton Keynes and they want a part of that. I am quite happy to accept there is peak time demand, certainly as far as MK.

They also want to head off any potential loss from Alliance and "queer the pitch" before they start running.


I do not agree there is the kind of demand, off peak, that posters suggest.

 

[jimm]

I am capable of reading a map, and Bedworth is reasonably close to both places, certainly to the extent that it will make any difference when travelling by car (though I accept there will be some traffic issues). Therefore it is uneconomic and not sensible to provide an increased service at Nuneaton for the benefit of passengers from Bedworth when they have the option of three trains per hour from each of LM and VT from Coventry as well as an hourly rail service to reach Coventry if they don't wish to drive.

Hinckley I'll give you but I do not agree it justifies such an increased service. Hartshill appears to be quite small. Exhall is nearer to Coventry.

Since when has looking at a map been a clue to traffic conditions on the roads it shows?

'Some traffic issues'... that's one way of putting it. Have you ever tried driving in/through/around Coventry at busy times of the day?

According the the AA route planner, in average road conditions, it takes twice as long to get from Bedworth to Coventry station as against Nuneaton station (and much the same can be said about several places north-east of the M6 like Exhall). Virgin trains between Nuneaton or Coventry and London take about an hour. So which station do you think people will favour when you factor in driving time/hassle? Even using an LM service to Nuneaton compares pretty well with using Coventry in overall door-to-door journey time.

As things stand, it is perfectly reasonable to argue that both Nuneaton (not forgetting the same number of people again combined in Bedworth and Hinckley) and Tamworth get a pretty raw deal in terms of fast and long-distance trains compared with similar-sized Rugby, a place which offers zero cross-country connection opportunities.

We will just have to see whether what Virgin is proposing amounts to a genuine attempt to improve services overall or a spot of cherry-picking.

 

[pt_mad]

Virgin want to stop there as they have seen that people will commute to Euston and Milton Keynes and they want a part of that. I am quite happy to accept there is peak time demand, certainly as far as MK.

They also want to head off any potential loss from Alliance and "queer the pitch" before they start running.


I do not agree there is the kind of demand, off peak, that posters suggest.

Well there must be a decent demand off-peak as it is widely reported the LM services are running full.

Begs the question what actually happens if someone turns up to Euston with an anytime ticket (not LM only) and boards the LM service as its the middle of the day and thats all there is. Do Virgin get the money rather than LM? As I presume the anytime return day ticket priced at (around £150 ish) goes to Virgin, but if returning during the day the customer would board the LM.
There must be a market of business people who just have open returns or those with season tickets whose tickets are valid on the VT services but they can't be used on those services in the off-peak as they don't stop.

Also I believe there is an off-peak ticket in the Trent Valley marked 'Direct'. Priced somewhere around £50? for a day return, which entitles you to board any off-peak LM service to London, and any off-peak service back whether VT or LM. By stopping just ONE off-peak Euston Virgin service in the Trent after 0930, this ticket could surely then be used to do the full return on Virgin Trains?



I have been at Grantham (and Newark come to think of it) many a time in the middle of the day. One of the two hourly East Coast services pulls in for London, and there might be say 15/20 people waiting. I have been through the Trent Valley and the service has flooded with people at places like Lichfield, Tamworth and Nuneaton during the daytime.
If we are looking at how many Customers justify actually stopping a fast service at a town station en route, and say cut any service stopping where there's less than 45, we would probably lose half the stops on the MML and East Coast Mainline.

Reminds me of the situation that existed on the Midland Mainline some years ago, where the 170 Turbostar trains operated the semi-fast London/Derby service. However Wellingborough and Market Harborough still retained the Intercity stops as well.

 

[nuneatonmark]

Well there must be a decent demand off-peak as it is widely reported the LM services are running full.

Begs the question what actually happens if someone turns up to Euston with an anytime ticket (not LM only) and boards the LM service as its the middle of the day and thats all there is. Do Virgin get the money rather than LM? As I presume the anytime return day ticket priced at (around £150 ish) goes to Virgin, but if returning during the day the customer would board the LM.
There must be a market of business people who just have open returns or those with season tickets whose tickets are valid on the VT services but they can't be used on those services in the off-peak as they don't stop.

Also I believe there is an off-peak ticket in the Trent Valley marked 'Direct'. Priced somewhere around £50? for a day return, which entitles you to board any off-peak LM service to London, and any off-peak service back whether VT or LM. By stopping just ONE off-peak Euston Virgin service in the Trent after 0930, this ticket could surely then be used to do the full return on Virgin Trains?



I have been at Grantham (and Newark come to think of it) many a time in the middle of the day. One of the two hourly East Coast services pulls in for London, and there might be say 15/20 people waiting. I have been through the Trent Valley and the service has flooded with people at places like Lichfield, Tamworth and Nuneaton during the daytime.
If we are looking at how many Customers justify actually stopping a fast service at a town station en route, and say cut any service stopping where there's less than 45, we would probably lose half the stops on the MML and East Coast Mainline.

Reminds me of the situation that existed on the Midland Mainline some years ago, where the 170 Turbostar trains operated the semi-fast London/Derby service. However Wellingborough and Market Harborough still retained the Intercity stops as well.

Spot on PT_mad. All of the TV stations get a raw deal compared to towns on the ECML, MML and GWML. The off-peak LM services are very busy, I use them all the time.

 

[DarloRich]

Spot on PT_mad. All of the TV stations get a raw deal compared to towns on the ECML, MML and GWML. The off-peak LM services are very busy, I use them all the time.

spot on if it agrees with your analysis eh?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well there must be a decent demand off-peak as it is widely reported the LM services are running full.

They are full as they pick up right along the route but in my experience the majority board at MK. Hold on MK has Virgin services...............

Begs the question what actually happens if someone turns up to Euston with an anytime ticket (not LM only) and boards the LM service as its the middle of the day and thats all there is. Do Virgin get the money rather than LM? As I presume the anytime return day ticket priced at (around £150 ish) goes to Virgin, but if returning during the day the customer would board the LM.

Do they not get told to change at Rugby?

There must be a market of business people who just have open returns or those with season tickets whose tickets are valid on the VT services but they can't be used on those services in the off-peak as they don't stop.

Also I believe there is an off-peak ticket in the Trent Valley marked 'Direct'. Priced somewhere around £50? for a day return, which entitles you to board any off-peak LM service to London, and any off-peak service back whether VT or LM. By stopping just ONE off-peak Euston Virgin service in the Trent after 0930, this ticket could surely then be used to do the full return on Virgin Trains?

perhaps - but are all the people going to London? In my experience many people are travelling to MK. I fully understand that Virgin is nicer and has a higher cachet than LM but would it improve the service on that section.

Clearly for the Nuneaton commuter it would but what about the 100's others on the train delayed to serve the needs of at most 50

I have been at Grantham (and Newark come to think of it) many a time in the middle of the day. One of the two hourly East Coast services pulls in for London, and there might be say 15/20 people waiting. I have been through the Trent Valley and the service has flooded with people at places like Lichfield, Tamworth and Nuneaton during the daytime.
If we are looking at how many Customers justify actually stopping a fast service at a town station en route, and say cut any service stopping where there's less than 45, we would probably lose half the stops on the MML and East Coast Mainline.

I still maintain many of the passengers are moving between Trent Valley stations and that stopping a Virgin service, off peak, for these people would simply offer an intercity train on a stopper. it would cease to be a fast train and defeat the purpose.

 

[The Ham]

They are full as they pick up right along the route but in my experience the majority board at MK. Hold on MK has Virgin services...............

Conversely my experian is that although there are a fair number of people who get on/off at MK, the train loading is broadly the same.

Do they not get told to change at Rugby?

The Crew train is about xx:45 from Euston, unless there is Virgin train at about that time then most people will just the LM train as it is quicker.

perhaps - but are all the people going to London? In my experience many people are travelling to MK. I fully understand that Virgin is nicer and has a higher cachet than LM but would it improve the service on that section.

Given that the LM trains to/from Nuneaton generally have two stops (Rugby & MK) it is not surprising that there are a number of people who use those stations.

Clearly for the Nuneaton commuter it would but what about the 100's others on the train delayed to serve the needs of at most 50

Yes there is a balance to be had, which is why Virgin appear to be talking about some extra stops at Nuneaton. As I have said before Nuneaton would appear to be somewhere that would benefit from some extra services. How that looks is clearly up to the TOC's. However I don't think that the benefit would be enough to justify 2tph every hour unless a new service could be run.

Although there is also the possibility of people making connections at Nuneaton to travel elsewhere. For instance (depending on when it is due to stop at Nuneaton and which services it is) it could become quicker (or at least only a bit slower so that it is still quicker than waiting for the next existing service) for passengers to travel from Leicester to places north along the WCML rather than via Birmingham, Derby or Sheffield.

I still maintain many of the passengers are moving between Trent Valley stations and that stopping a Virgin service, off peak, for these people would simply offer an intercity train on a stopper. it would cease to be a fast train and defeat the purpose.

It depends on how many services are stopped at Nuneaton. If it's one train every 3 hours then it's not going to impact many people. If however it's 3tph then you risk upsetting a lot of people.

 

[DarloRich]

The Crew train is about xx:45 from Euston, unless there is Virgin train at about that time then most people will just the LM train as it is quicker.

Given that the LM trains to/from Nuneaton generally have two stops (Rugby & MK) it is not surprising that there are a number of people who use those stations.

of course. The fast LM runs via Weedon not Northampton. No point changing. Two stops to london isn't bad though!

Yes there is a balance to be had, which is why Virgin appear to be talking about some extra stops at Nuneaton. As I have said before Nuneaton would appear to be somewhere that would benefit from some extra services. How that looks is clearly up to the TOC's. However I don't think that the benefit would be enough to justify 2tph every hour unless a new service could be run.

Although there is also the possibility of people making connections at Nuneaton to travel elsewhere. For instance (depending on when it is due to stop at Nuneaton and which services it is) it could become quicker (or at least only a bit slower so that it is still quicker than waiting for the next existing service) for passengers to travel from Leicester to places north along the WCML rather than via Birmingham, Derby or Sheffield.

It depends on how many services are stopped at Nuneaton. If it's one train every 3 hours then it's not going to impact many people. If however it's 3tph then you risk upsetting a lot of people.

I agree. I don't think there is off peak demand such to justify lots of stopping trains.Peak time Virgin and enhanced LM services would do the job in my mind.

I also maintain that to really benefit financially AND draw customers form LM Virgin would need to stop at Nuneaton ( + other TV stations) & MK