Standing whilst an attachment takes place

[HarleyDavidson]

The jolt of attaching trains is no worse, unless it's being done by someone who's heavy handed, than the general movement of a train travelling at speed over pointwork etc. The idea of needing a safety announcement just invents a theoretical 'hazard' where one clearly doesn't exist. It's nonsense.
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Surely continuity can only be checked by releasing the brakes? Or are we talking stock with traction interlock rather than brake interlock?

On Sprinter stock the procedure with our lot is attach & pull, brake test then undertaken by by releasing down through the steps, ideally with somebody on the other set to confirm the same is happening next door.

Still do it as far as I'm aware.

 

[topydre]

On the Cambrian, it's quite normal for two 158s with passengers to couple up at Machynlleth. Ex-Aberystwyth portion full of people joins up with the Ex-Pwllheli unit full of people; they couple; the doors open to let people off/on. I've stood in the vestibules waiting to get off at Machynlleth several times, and it's never been a problem.

 

[MichaelAMW]

I chatted to an EMT guard about this once upon a time, in connection with the coupling up of Norwich - Liverpool trains. She said that they keep people off the empty waiting unit, which is the one that is moved, to avoid the albeit pretty small risk to passengers if it's coupled with a bit of a thump. In my usual awkward way I then asked why people are not emptied out when already on the train being coupled and she said that the risk, I guess she means the statistics, of a load of people crossing the gap between the train and the platform was higher and therefore it was safer to leave people where they were if already on board.

 

[Taunton]

Makes you wonder how we used to split and attach "back in the day" on the Southern with all those lethal CEPS/BEPS/CIG/BIG/VEPS. I had to wait on platform 1 at Cambridge a few years ago whilst the portion from Lynn came up. We couldn't wait on the train because of, the young lady five minute manager explained "health and safety". The same reason was given at Northampton last year when I and several dozen more punters were told to detrain whilst another set was attached at the rear. "It's for your safety mate".
Worlds gone mad.

You also wonder how the railway of old managed with all those locomotives being changed without the slightest difficulty as they buffered up, all the doors open and everyone still getting in. Or how things might have been at Bromsgrove on a packed northbound summer Saturday express. "Everybody out on the platform, the banker's got to come on the back".

 

[Bookd]

Or even the slip coach system, when the back coach or two were just uncoupled on the move and stopped by the guard on the handbrake!

 

[FordFocus]

Times change. We live in the times of 'chain of care', 'HSE' and 'No Win - No Fee'.

 

[Taunton]

Or even the slip coach system, when the back coach or two were just uncoupled on the move and stopped by the guard on the handbrake!

Actually they were stopped on the vacuum brake! The slip coaches had extra brake cylinders underneath to hold the vacuum, and special brake pipe shut-off valves by the slip coupling which came apart sealed on both ends when the detachment was made. Sometimes there would be a second, normal coach attached behind the slip vehicle. The slip guards were experts at then stopping them precisely - the one detached at Taunton from the Cornish Riviera apparently was always stopped with the front door right alongside the subway steps.

THEN they put the handbrake on.

You needed the vacuum brake because if the brake pipe on the main train didn't seal properly it's brakes would come hard on, and the slip needed to then pull up extremely swiftly behind it. Happened very occasionally. The locomotive meanwhile would put full steam on against the brakes to keep as far ahead as possible. But even a King couldn't keep going against the GWR higher-vacuum brake.

Back to the present Century!

 

[infobleep]

Or even the slip coach system, when the back coach or two were just uncoupled on the move and stopped by the guard on the handbrake!

I would love to have travelled on a slip coach. I never will of course.

 

[PHILIPE]

On the Cambrian, it's quite normal for two 158s with passengers to couple up at Machynlleth. Ex-Aberystwyth portion full of people joins up with the Ex-Pwllheli unit full of people; they couple; the doors open to let people off/on. I've stood in the vestibules waiting to get off at Machynlleth several times, and it's never been a problem.

At Cardiff on the Valley platforms, the doors are often opened on arrival to allow detraining passengers to get away without delaying them. After closure and attaching, they are re-opened to allow any other passengers to board.

 

[jon0844]

Shouldn't the driver just shout 'Brace Brace!' as loudly and panicky as possible to get everyone to hold on to something?

 

[BestWestern]

I chatted to an EMT guard about this once upon a time, in connection with the coupling up of Norwich - Liverpool trains. She said that they keep people off the empty waiting unit, which is the one that is moved, to avoid the albeit pretty small risk to passengers if it's coupled with a bit of a thump. In my usual awkward way I then asked why people are not emptied out when already on the train being coupled and she said that the risk, I guess she means the statistics, of a load of people crossing the gap between the train and the platform was higher and therefore it was safer to leave people where they were if already on board.

Oh for God's sake... :roll: :roll: :roll:

Shouldn't the driver just shout 'Brace Brace!' as loudly and panicky as possible to get everyone to hold on to something?

Brilliant!!

 

[infobleep]

Shouldn't the driver just shout 'Brace Brace!' as loudly and panicky as possible to get everyone to hold on to something?

I'd love to hear that. No doubt there would be a sense of humour failure from someone and the driver reprimanded.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

At Cardiff on the Valley platforms, the doors are often opened on arrival to allow detraining passengers to get away without delaying them. After closure and attaching, they are re-opened to allow any other passengers to board.

I've experienced this as a passenger and as a spectator at Cardiff Queen Street and Cardiff Central respectively.

In the former case, the second train (which I was on) drew up to the rear of the first train, the doors were opened and those people who were getting off were allowed to. The doors were then closed and the train joined the first one, the doors were reopened and those who wanted to get in were allowed to. An announcement was made asking passengers to sit down or keep a good hold whilst the two units coupled.

In the second case, it was often an empty train that was joining an "occupied" train. The people who wanted to leave the first train were allowed to do so, and people were allowed to join if the second train wasn't immediately behind it. Once the second train had arrived, no-one was allowed to get on or off until the coupling process had been completed. A similar announcement was made in the first train as above.

Both systems seemed to work, although they don't seem to do much of it now - I don't think that I've seen it happen for quite a while.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

SWTs at Bournemouth (at least last time I was on a train through there), keep the doors shut on the unit with passengers. When it's approaching the station an on-train announcement plays that there will be short delay whilst another unit is attached. Once joined the doors are released. I think normally the unit being joined to it, is an empty from the carriage sidings

 

[jon0844]

I'd love to hear that. No doubt there would be a sense of humour failure from someone and the driver reprimanded.

Well, it would guarantee an appearance in the Daily Mail.

 

[Phil.]

Speaking of Bournemouth...
Imagine the scene assessment now. TC+TC+REP arrives from London. REP is detached off the back, 33/1 attached to the front. All this whilst punters are boarding/alighting.
Dark dangerous days they were.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Originally Posted by MichaelAMW
I chatted to an EMT guard about this once upon a time, in connection with the coupling up of Norwich - Liverpool trains. She said that they keep people off the empty waiting unit, which is the one that is moved, to avoid the albeit pretty small risk to passengers if it's coupled with a bit of a thump. In my usual awkward way I then asked why people are not emptied out when already on the train being coupled and she said that the risk, I guess she means the statistics, of a load of people crossing the gap between the train and the platform was higher and therefore it was safer to leave people where they were if already on board.

Oh for God's sake... :roll: :roll: :roll:

Can you elaborate on your reaction here? I'm not (even) sure if you're exasperated at me or at the tale I have related.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Speaking of Bournemouth...
Imagine the scene assessment now. TC+TC+REP arrives from London. REP is detached off the back, 33/1 attached to the front. All this whilst punters are boarding/alighting.
Dark dangerous days they were.

Elf & Safety would have a fit if we did that nowadays!

Like I said it's all about protecting one's backside now from money grabbing lawyers.

 

[fairysdad]

SWTs at Bournemouth (at least last time I was on a train through there), keep the doors shut on the unit with passengers. When it's approaching the station an on-train announcement plays that there will be short delay whilst another unit is attached. Once joined the doors are released. I think normally the unit being joined to it, is an empty from the carriage sidings

The 158s/159s at Salisbury have a similar announcement and procedure when joining. (I also seem to recall it on arrival at Waterloo, but that might just be my imagination!)

I know that at Bournemouth, the empty from the sidings stays closed until the incoming train is attached. Once I did witness the empty being open for passengers as soon as it arrived in the platform; as the ex-Weymouth approached, the doors closed causing some passengers assuming that they'd missed their train. At least one was running down the steps of the footbridge, saw it lock, stop, and turn around again only to run back down again when they heard it open up again once attached! (I was waiting for an XC service, so watched with amusement, musing on how unusual it was for the empty to open up before attaching!)

 

[BestWestern]

Can you elaborate on your reaction here? I'm not (even) sure if you're exasperated at me or at the tale I have related.

Not you, no!

More the ludicrous 'weighing up' of supposed hazards in what is in actual fact an entirely low risk situation. Utter nonsense and a sign of what a depressing society we now all inhabit!

 

[MichaelAMW]

Not you, no!

More the ludicrous 'weighing up' of supposed hazards in what is in actual fact an entirely low risk situation. Utter nonsense and a sign of what a depressing society we now all inhabit!

Jolly good. I try not too offend... Yes, it did strike me that the whole thing seems pretty safe however you look at it. Whilst I suppose there is not a whole lot wrong with the method in use, since it's just a matter of when people are allowed on, the fact that the process is considered acceptably safe with people on board *sometimes* makes you wonder whether it wouldn't therefore be OK *always*. Of course, I have no idea whether this was a written down TOC policy or just the way it was usually done.

 

[Parallel]

I have never had any issues when on a train that's joining/splitting units.

I do remember two rough occasions though. One was at Machynlleth - I was alighting the ex-Aberystwyth portion and it was coupling to the ex-Pwllheli portion. They tried to couple it a few times, and one of the units wasn't having any of it. They did eventually couple, after about 5 attempts but they were getting more forceful with each one! Interesting to note that one of the units was working alone on Cambrian Coast services the next day and when it came to Machynlleth, the passengers got kicked off and the unit went to the siding and the 2-car ex-Aberysytwyth portion continued to Birmingham Intl alone, and the next incoming service didn't divide at Machynlleth and all four coaches continued to Aberystwyth, with the other 158 coming back out from the siding, returning to Pwllheli. Maybe there was a coupling issue with this train.

The other rough experience was in Devon a few weeks ago. A 153 was coupled to a full and standing Barnstaple pacer - There was more force than I thought, nearly fell over!

At Exeter and Bristol, they tend to do what ATW do at Cardiff. Open doors, passengers off/on. Close doors, couple another train. Re-open doors.

 

[plymothian]

I have never had any issues when on a train that's joining/splitting units.

I do remember two rough occasions though. One was at Machynlleth - I was alighting the ex-Aberystwyth portion and it was coupling to the ex-Pwllheli portion. They tried to couple it a few times, and one of the units wasn't having any of it. They did eventually couple, after about 5 attempts but they were getting more forceful with each one! Interesting to note that one of the units was working alone on Cambrian Coast services the next day and when it came to Machynlleth, the passengers got kicked off and the unit went to the siding and the 2-car ex-Aberysytwyth portion continued to Birmingham Intl alone, and the next incoming service didn't divide at Machynlleth and all four coaches continued to Aberystwyth, with the other 158 coming back out from the siding, returning to Pwllheli. Maybe there was a coupling issue with this train.

The other rough experience was in Devon a few weeks ago. A 153 was coupled to a full and standing Barnstaple pacer - There was more force than I thought, nearly fell over!

At Exeter and Bristol, they tend to do what ATW do at Cardiff. Open doors, passengers off/on. Close doors, couple another train. Re-open doors.

Ex-Barnstaple trains will couple first, ex-Exeter Central trains won't. This is because Exeter St David's is not permissive for trains originating from from EXC.

 

[BestWestern]

The official coupling procedure for GWR/FGW (at Bristol, Westbury, Gloucester etc anyhow) is to perform the attachment first, and then release the doors.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Are there any services anywhere that have more then one attachment/detachment?

 

[jimm]

The official coupling procedure for GWR/FGW (at Bristol, Westbury, Gloucester etc anyhow) is to perform the attachment first, and then release the doors.

Same rule also applies to Turbo operations at Oxford. If a train is dividing there, the rear set is the one that is shunted backwards before doors are released.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

On my return from Lincoln recently, I got a multiple 158 train that was destined for Beverley. When we got to Hull, the rear unit was uncoupled from the leading two units and finished the trip - doing the decoupling with passengers onboard both portions and whilst deboarding

 

[sarahj]

I know nothing much can be done about the following and I'm not expecting it to be but I thought it was interesting.

The guard or driver of the delayed 6.59 Haywards Heath to London Bridge service has asked that everyone remain seated whilst an attachment takes place.

Of course there are a number of people standing in the aisles because there are no seats spare and I was in the 8th carriage, which was the last one before the attachment took place. I so no spare seats in the other carriages either!

I'm fairly certain that on these services at least it's not a problem standing when they make the attachment. May be it would be if one moved. Not tried that. I just stayed where I was.

If one wanted to be pedantic you could say that perhaps they should announce please don't move whilst the attachment takes place. However it's a minor point as if it really was dangerous we wouldn't be on the train when they made the attachment. Still I thought it interesting.

Our delay was a passenger pulling an alarm at Burgess Hill on the 6.40 from there which has lead to 16 minute delays to trains behind it. Hopefully all is OK with the passengers on that train.

Basic answer is if it was the guard, then they did a slight boo-boo on the announcement. When its quiet, you say, 'remain seated'. When its busy you say 'take extra care'. Simples. I will say, 'please take extra care as sometimes there is a slight jolt'.

Then of course the driver has to say their bit as well, and they have no idea if there is one person on the train or 1000, so they might just say the standard 'remain seated' buff. If it came through just before the procedure, then that's the driver, it it was said on approach, that's the guard/conductor.
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Are there any services anywhere that have more then one attachment/detachment?

Yes. My service from Ore to Victoria yesterday. Left Ore as a 4 car. Joined to 4 more at Eastbourne, joined to 4 more at Haywards Heath. Sometimes this practice is reversed. (with one a day splitting at the Heath and then Lewes (for Seaford).

 

[theironroad]

Are there any services anywhere that have more then one attachment/detachment?

I think there is a double detachment at Salisbury with a 9 car 159. Comes from London, 3 to to Exeter,3 to Bristol and 3 come out of service.not sure if it with every Waterloo to Bristol or if it happens in reverse direction.

 

[snowball]

Are there any services anywhere that have more then one attachment/detachment?

In loco-hauled days there used to be trains with Liverpool-Glasgow, Manchester-Glasgow and Manchester-Edinburgh portions.