My idea - re-opening lines in Central England ?

[richieb1971]

I understand economics. I am not asking for Rome to be built in a day.

We are the 5th biggest economy and act like we are 105th. Just for my information where do we stand in the world rankings of miles of NEW track laid in the past decade? (as in, no track pre existed).

I think the only way my idea will happen is if London gets to be as big as the UK. They will expand the network then.

 

[HowardGWR]

I understand economics. I am not asking for Rome to be built in a day.

We are the 5th biggest economy and act like we are 105th. Just for my information where do we stand in the world rankings of miles of NEW track laid in the past decade? (as in, no track pre existed).

I think the only way my idea will happen is if London gets to be as big as the UK. They will expand the network then.

I can't understand the highlighted sentence.

 

[A0]

I can't understand the highlighted sentence.

I think, what he's trying to say, is London is getting rail investment due to its size, scale and demands - if the rest of the country was 'like London' you'd get the investment. He's probably right on that, but frankly the UK would be an uninhabitable hell-hole if that ever came to pass.
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And the problem with Conservatives is that they always run out of other people's things to sell off

If you look at the privatisations of the last 30 years - the vast majority were of organisations which the government had previously "nationalised" i.e. they weren't the government's organisations to begin with, instead the government 'seized' or wrested control from the previous owners.

If they were organisations which the government had set up originally, I might agree with your sentiment - but the vast majority weren't.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can't see it not quite frankly. On the one hand, you have Bedford, Bicester, Milton Keynes and Oxford, all important centres for employment and housing. On the other hand, you've got a major economic centre in Cambridge, Stanstead Airport and the rest of East Anglia. And inbetween that lot, you've got a small gap which means that everyone has to go via London and increase congestion on those services.

If they can't make a positive business case out of that lot, they've got their calculations wrong.

Cambridge isn't the pull everyone is making it out to be - it's relatively small (130k) and whilst it has some hi-tech industries these tend to be in specific sectors and closely linked to the University.

Stansted Airport is an irrelevance - people from the M1 corridor generally don't bother with it, as Luton, Birmingham and East Mids are all generally accessible for short / medium flights - Heathrow for longer distance.

 

[yorksrob]

If you look at the privatisations of the last 30 years - the vast majority were of organisations which the government had previously "nationalised" i.e. they weren't the government's organisations to begin with, instead the government 'seized' or wrested control from the previous owners.

If they were organisations which the government had set up originally, I might agree with your sentiment - but the vast majority weren't.
.

Post office - Set up by the Crown, i.e. the State
BT - set up by the Post office, i.e. the State
Gas and Electricity - set up by the municipalities, i.e. the State
Water - set up by the municipalities, i.e. the State
Railways - ok, I'll give you that one!

Cambridge isn't the pull everyone is making it out to be - it's relatively small (130k) and whilst it has some hi-tech industries these tend to be in specific sectors and closely linked to the University.

Stansted Airport is an irrelevance - people from the M1 corridor generally don't bother with it, as Luton, Birmingham and East Mids are all generally accessible for short / medium flights - Heathrow for longer distance.

130k is easily enough to be a major pull. And your point about most of the high-tec industries being linked to the University is true to an extent, but not the whole picture, as any self sustaining industry needs employees employed by the company, rather than just the University. They need to live somewhere near enough to commute.

And those 130k are just the hinterland. As I mentioned, Cambridge is the gateway to the rest of East Anglia.

As for Stanstead airport, I know plenty of people from here in Leeds who have used it, so I don't for one minute believe that people on the M1 corridor wouldn't use it with good transport links.

 

[A0]

Post office - Set up by the Crown, i.e. the State

Not quite that simple - if you read the history you will find extensive private involvement in it before it was 'corporatised'.

BT - set up by the Post office, i.e. the State

Sort of - mainly because the Post Office wanted to control ALL communications including broadcast.

Gas and Electricity - set up by the municipalities, i.e. the State

Wrong. Some Electricity companies were municipal, but there were also alot of Private ones - list here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pre-nationalisation_UK_electric_power_companies


Again - gas was largely private https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_Light_and_Coke_Company

Water - set up by the municipalities, i.e. the State

No - see this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_River_(England)#Construction

Railways - ok, I'll give you that one!

Well, that was the obvious one.

130k is easily enough to be a major pull. And your point about most of the high-tec industries being linked to the University is true to an extent, but not the whole picture, as any self sustaining industry needs employees employed by the company, rather than just the University. They need to live somewhere near enough to commute.

And those 130k are just the hinterland. As I mentioned, Cambridge is the gateway to the rest of East Anglia.

As for Stanstead airport, I know plenty of people from here in Leeds who have used it, so I don't for one minute believe that people on the M1 corridor wouldn't use it with good transport links.

Cambridge already has direct links to Birmingham (Britain's second city) and that is, as another poster has pointed out, is currently an hourly service using a Turbostar.

As for Cambridge being the 'hinterland' fine - Norwich is little bigger (140,000) and Ipswich is about the same (133,000). Again, they might be important regional centres, but they aren't 'pulls' from the M1 corridor.

As for Stansted - I'd be interested to know WHY people from Leeds chose to use it - I'm guessing it was either price or a route they specifically wanted.

Having lived in Herts for over 20 years and then Northants for over 10 years I can truthfully say I've flown from Stansted once - and that was because of a specific destination. Most people I speak to routinely look to Birmingham or Luton for the 'package holiday' type routes and Heathrow for long distance. Stansted just doesn't figure in most people's conversations - because it tends not to offer the routes people want and is less convenient to get to (i.e. Luton's 5 mins from the M1, Birmingham's 10 minutes from the M6). Improving the train links is unlikely to change that for most people.

 

[MarkRedon]

Cambridge already has direct links to Birmingham (Britain's second city) and that is, as another poster has pointed out, is currently an hourly service using a Turbostar.

As for Cambridge being the 'hinterland' fine - Norwich is little bigger (140,000) and Ipswich is about the same (133,000). Again, they might be important regional centres, but they aren't 'pulls' from the M1 corridor.

As for Stansted - I'd be interested to know WHY people from Leeds chose to use it - I'm guessing it was either price or a route they specifically wanted.

I think that you are guilty of grossly underestimating the significance of Stansted airport. This is the hub airport for "low-cost" (I prefer, dynamic pricing) flights and the most obvious airport to use if you live in East Anglia (given that Norwich has only a very limited range of destinations, none of them served by larger airlines). When I was commuting on a weekly basis between Brittany and West Yorkshire, I depended on the hourly Stansted to Peterborough trains as part of my onward journey to and from Stansted. Although Stansted has not been highlighted in the most recent south-eastern runways planning, it has developed a specific profile as a not-quite-London airport favoured in particular by the dynamic pricing airlines. The reasons that people from Leeds or elsewhere on what you call the M1 corridor choose to travel from Stansted include the range of European destinations and the substantially lower fares which are frequently available. I am annoyed that the owners of Stansted airport are only seeking better links towards London and seem to make no reference to the need for improvements on the unattractive services north to Cambridge and, I hope one day, East-West links to ECML, MML, WCML and even GWML.

 

[A0]

I think that you are guilty of grossly underestimating the significance of Stansted airport. This is the hub airport for "low-cost" (I prefer, dynamic pricing) flights and the most obvious airport to use if you live in East Anglia (given that Norwich has only a very limited range of destinations, none of them served by larger airlines). When I was commuting on a weekly basis between Brittany and West Yorkshire, I depended on the hourly Stansted to Peterborough trains as part of my onward journey to and from Stansted. Although Stansted has not been highlighted in the most recent south-eastern runways planning, it has developed a specific profile as a not-quite-London airport favoured in particular by the dynamic pricing airlines. The reasons that people from Leeds or elsewhere on what you call the M1 corridor choose to travel from Stansted include the range of European destinations and the substantially lower fares which are frequently available. I am annoyed that the owners of Stansted airport are only seeking better links towards London and seem to make no reference to the need for improvements on the unattractive services north to Cambridge and, I hope one day, East-West links to ECML, MML, WCML and even GWML.

No, I don't think I have. Standsted is the preferred option for people who live in Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex, Cambs and East Herts.

After that, Stansted's key competitors are Gatwick and Luton - all three are about the same distance out of London, all three have fast train links to London, because that's where the primary traffic flow is.

Stansted already has links to the ECML (at Peterborough), MML (Leicester), WCML (Nuneaton and Birmingham New St) - there is probably no justification for it to need links to the GWML - because traffic from the M4 corridor will either use Heathrow, Gatwick or at a push Birmingham. And there are direct trains to Gatwick from Reading - so at a key interchange on the GWML.

 

[MarkRedon]

No, I don't think I have. Standsted is the preferred option for people who live in Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex, Cambs and East Herts.

After that, Stansted's key competitors are Gatwick and Luton - all three are about the same distance out of London, all three have fast train links to London, because that's where the primary traffic flow is.

Stansted already has links to the ECML (at Peterborough), MML (Leicester), WCML (Nuneaton and Birmingham New St) - there is probably no justification for it to need links to the GWML - because traffic from the M4 corridor will either use Heathrow, Gatwick or at a push Birmingham. And there are direct trains to Gatwick from Reading - so at a key interchange on the GWML.

I agree with much of what you say. When I have the choice, I will often prefer Gatwick over Stansted not least because of its good onward rail connections. Nevertheless, I stick with my primary point which is that Stansted has the widest range of low-cost (dynamic pricing) flights to European destinations available to people from a large part of the United Kingdom. When I plan my travel, I look at the total costs involved (and for me, my time has relatively low value). I assure you that it has many times been cheaper for me to use Stansted than to use Bristol or East Midlands / Nottingham or Luton – even when making a Bristol or Leeds to Brittany journey. I almost never fly from Heathrow because I very rarely make long haul flights; unless and until a third runway is built at Heathrow it is almost irrelevant to reasonable-cost European travel.

Generalising, there is a case for good rail links to Stansted including but not exclusively London. London and the south-east still represent a minority of the United Kingdom population.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Getting back to he the core of the recent theme of this thread, there is clearly significant business potential in East Anglia, whether Cambridge, Norwich, Ipswich, Stansted or elsewhere.

The real question is whether East-West rail will be able to offer a substantial improvement in journey times or convenience through connections from various parts of the country. There are currently alternative routes from the North West, Yorkshire, the East and West Midlands via Nottingham, Leicester, Peterborough, Nuneaton, etc.

Only the South Midlands and western areas really lack alternatives to going via London. It is not yet clear that there will be (say) Bristol-Swindon-Oxford-Cambridge services (no doubt with other calls) to provide strategic connectivity.

If the re-created central section really only functions as another commuter route into Cambridge for those who can find cheaper housing elsewhere it will be hard to justify the construction costs of a substantially new alignment.

We have heard quite a lot about ideas for services on the western sections, e.g. Cross Country via Milton Keynes or the Midland Main Line; and the Electric Spine. Can any contributors flesh out what is envisaged for the central section?

 

[yorksrob]

Not quite that simple - if you read the history you will find extensive private involvement in it before it was 'corporatised'.

Sort of - mainly because the Post Office wanted to control ALL communications including broadcast.

Wrong. Some Electricity companies were municipal, but there were also alot of Private ones - list here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pre-nationalisation_UK_electric_power_companies


Again - gas was largely private https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_Light_and_Coke_Company


No - see this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_River_(England)#Construction

Electricity was largely municipal (as your linked page illustrates), gas less so.

Water was municipal:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in_England_and_Wales

Cambridge already has direct links to Birmingham (Britain's second city) and that is, as another poster has pointed out, is currently an hourly service using a Turbostar.

As for Cambridge being the 'hinterland' fine - Norwich is little bigger (140,000) and Ipswich is about the same (133,000). Again, they might be important regional centres, but they aren't 'pulls' from the M1 corridor.

As for Stansted - I'd be interested to know WHY people from Leeds chose to use it - I'm guessing it was either price or a route they specifically wanted.

Having lived in Herts for over 20 years and then Northants for over 10 years I can truthfully say I've flown from Stansted once - and that was because of a specific destination. Most people I speak to routinely look to Birmingham or Luton for the 'package holiday' type routes and Heathrow for long distance. Stansted just doesn't figure in most people's conversations - because it tends not to offer the routes people want and is less convenient to get to (i.e. Luton's 5 mins from the M1, Birmingham's 10 minutes from the M6). Improving the train links is unlikely to change that for most people.

The M1 corridor and Cambridge/East Anglia are both major housing/employment/tertiary education centres. They will generate a sizeable traffic flow between them.

As for Stanstead Airport, from what I gather, it's a case of there being the right deal for where people want to go at a given time. The way the air travel market seems to work, this can be one of any range of airports, Stanstead included. This seems to be the way a lot of the people I know travel (otherwise the preferred choice would likely Leeds/Bradford or Manchester)

 

[muddythefish]

Right: For the 9 millionth and final time. If i was in charge i would be happy reopen lines IF you can could provide two simple things.

You need something called a business case (I saved of looking for what that is you a job as you cant seem to find details on the web https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_case) clearly showing the costs , benefits and financial payback period and an identified source of funding.

Business cases are too narrow because they only look at potential farebox revenues and ignore the social and other benefits of railways. The cases put forward for the Beeching closures also failed to do this.

 

[muddythefish]

Right - first things first - just because rail usage has gone up by 50% it doesn't mean someone's profiteering. The fact that usage has hit the highest level since 1948 YET there has not been a growth in the physical network suggests a couple of things:

1 - the existing network was being poorly / under-utilised.
2 - we may not have yet reached capacity on the current network.
.

The fact rail usage has soared in the face of significant fare increases suggests to me that there is a latent demand for rail travel and that any extensions to the network are likely to be very successful.

 

[muddythefish]

I think that you are guilty of grossly underestimating the significance of Stansted airport. I am annoyed that the owners of Stansted airport are only seeking better links towards London and seem to make no reference to the need for improvements on the unattractive services north to Cambridge and, I hope one day, East-West links to ECML, MML, WCML and even GWML.

Quite right. Stansted is growing fast and needs better public transport connections from East Anglia and also its hinterland to the west. It's a fine airport and I would rather use it any day than the Luton or Birmingham. It will never reach its potential without better links. The reopened East-West railway from Bedford to Cambridge, and on towards Stansted, cannot come soon enough.

 

[muddythefish]

London and the south-east still represent a minority of the United Kingdom population.

True. Please tell the civil servants at the DfT.

 

[muddythefish]

Not particularly wisely at all really. I know quite a few right-wing people love repeating that quote (I have a friend who finds an excuse to re-post it on Facebook at least every month or so). Sadly, I'd say it's one of those quotes that sounds clever, but is based on a pretty poor understanding of economics and of history (and I rather suspect, an element of misrepresenting the beliefs of many of those on the left)

It's just a knee-jerk response by people who have no understanding of politics.