Do you need to be intelligent to be a driver?

[notadriver]

We all know about the psychometric tests which all new drivers must pass. But these measure memory retention, problem solving and ability to follow rules etc etc.

 

[Fred Dinenage]

We all know about the psychometric tests which all new drivers must pass. But these measure memory retention, problem solving and ability to follow rules etc etc.

?

Have you been drinking?

 

[notadriver]

?



Have you been drinking?

Nope ml and I were having a discussion on text.

 

[FlashingYellows]

Intelligence - the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills.

I'd say you would need a fair degree of intelligence to be a train driver. I'd suggest that you wouldn't go very far if you did not have the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills.

 

[RPM]

You don't need to be academic but a certain degree of intelligence is needed. No more than average I would say though. More important is temperament and attitude.

 

[Fred Dinenage]

I believe in the law of mediocrity / things are pretty much the same across any selected cross-section of society, occupation. You get nice people, clever, anti-social, fat, thin....generally the percentages should be about the same in any given " pool ".

Why would drivers be any different?

In my particular occupation there are people of differing ability fulfilling the same role. Just the way it is. And i don't think intelligence comes into how well some of them are perceived by others. Some are naturally gifted at mechanical disciplines but struggle with crosswords and spelling / punctuation, etc. Does that mean they lack intelligence?

Not a driver, trying to get there though.

Are you?

 

[notadriver]

I believe in the law of mediocrity / things are pretty much the same across any selected cross-section of society, occupation. You get nice people, clever, anti-social, fat, thin....generally the percentages should be about the same in any given " pool ".



Why would drivers be any different?



In my particular occupation there are people of differing ability fulfilling the same role. Just the way it is. And i don't think intelligence comes into how well some of them are perceived by others. Some are naturally gifted at mechanical disciplines but struggle with crosswords and spelling / punctuation, etc. Does that mean they lack intelligence?



Not a driver, trying to get there though.



Are you?

Interesting answer. Well let's just say I've been about a bit

 

[Fred Dinenage]

Interesting answer. Well let's just say I've been about a bit

Just an observation

And i've had a few peeves tonight Perhaps my industry employs lower calibre staff

 

[notadriver]

What is that industry ? I think the mediocrity principle still applies.

 

[Fred Dinenage]

Gas Industry, specifically gas escapes from mains to meter..digging stuff up to repair, etc. Not gas-safe / old CORGI registration, that's open to anyone who'll pay to qualify.

I'm trying to leave because safety over here isn't viewed in the same way as the rail industry. It's getting worse, and people will get hurt in my opinion.

And intelligence seems to be lacking from management level down, yet the jobs are still filled by " up and comings ".

Off topic anyway.

Do you think intelligence comes into repetetive / monotonous / safety critical jobs? Or just an " IF / THEN " kind of situation upon faults or errors?

 

[notadriver]

Exactly my point. I don't think it does in normal mode of operation. But when something more serious occurs then perhaps a bit of foresight is needed but is that more experience than intelligence ?

 

[Fred Dinenage]

Today i'd say experience....800 houses without gas supply in my area of work due to a high pressure water main breaking, the jet drilling a hole through a gas pipe and filling the gas system with water ( happens more often than you'd think ). I got in at 1am saturday and had managers in charge throughout who were apprentice trained like me but lack experience / years in the job and did a poor job. Thankfully a manager i served under years back ( also apprentice trained ) took charge and provided some semblance of normality.

We all came through the same recruitment requirements so we should be of a similar ilk, but the youngest struggled to cope with an unfamiliar situation.

I'd go with experience, but i bet someone has a story where the positions are reversed.

Anyway, numpties seem to be getting more prevalent in my industry

 

[red2005]

Well it's not about being of the same intellect as Stephen Hawking by any stretch of the imagination........It's more about common sense.......you could have all the degrees/A levels/ GCSE'S under the sun but if you've no common sense you can still hurt or even kill someone on the railway very easily.

That said everyone has different ideas on what intelligence is and the different levels of intelligence there are.......me personally i think you do need a certain level of it just to get the job and pass the course!.......others of higher intelligence than myself will tell you a monkey could pass it........It's horses for courses.

 

[Bayum]

The amount of people shooting this thread down is quite astonishing. I think it's quite an interesting question, particularly as I was only discussing yesterday with a colleague whether school entry exams actually test intelligence and knowledge, or whether someone is able to complete patterns.

People have a different idea of what 'intelligence' constitutes, I'd say a bus driver for instance could be highly likely to make the transition to train driver just by being exposed to similar working environments. I don't know that for sure, because I haven't asked a question which others have, and been shot down for. I'd like to point out that I have no idea whether a bus driver would make the transition nicely or not, but I'd say so more a bus driver than a nurse practitioner for example.

 

[notadriver]

Interesting - whilst bus driver to train driver is a path well trodden by many, you might think that 50% of the depot would be ex bus drivers. But that's definitely not the case - I would say at my depot out of approx 120 drivers, 5 are ex bus or truck drivers.

 

[Bromley boy]

Interesting thread. As a driver currently in training, do you need to have degrees etc. coming out of every orifice? Nope. You need get through the aptitude tests and then convince the wise old heads who interview you that you have what it takes. They are people who have been around the block, don't suffer fools and know exactly what they are looking for.

This is evidenced in the trainees who get through. The driver trainees I have met come from a wide range of educational and professional backgrounds and vary in age. They all have "something" about them. Usually this is down to relevant prior experience, common sense etc rather than academics, but it is noticeable.

 

[ComUtoR]

Intelligent as per definition; probably not. It's a skill based job where it is more aptitude based.

A little common sense goes a very long way.

Experience, training, and intelligence all let me down today. In retrospect the answer was quite obvious. (Train Fault)

 

[TDK]

It depends on what you ,mean by intelligent. You don't need to be a rocket scientist but you need enough intelligence to be able to decipher, understand, act on and apply a lot of difficult and different scenarios. If that is intelligent to be able to carry this out then yes, you need to be intelligent.

 

[donpoku]

Please note that is not the Acquiring Of Knowledge-Degree, PhD etc- that impresses employers but the effective application of it in real world that they look for. This usually derives from the nature and character of the individual. That is why big companies are using psychologists to acquire the right characters and then train them up.

 

[cin88]

I was talking to the owner of 37109 one day whilst helping him wash the damn thing and he turned around to me and said "you don't need all those qualifications (meaning my degree) to do this job, just your common sense" (edited for politeness). He's quite correct in what he said as well, in my opinion.

 

[JamesRowden]

The logical answer to this question is yes. Otherwise all trains would drive themsleves automatically like the power converter control systems within the train do. The ability to process sight to understand/recognise ones surroundings is a form of intelligence.

 

[RPM]

I got ten 'O' Levels, did 'A' levels & got a degree. My brother in law left school with 2 'O' levels. We're both now drivers and earn the same money. Who's the fool?

 

[ComUtoR]

I got ten 'O' Levels, did 'A' levels & got a degree. My brother in law left school with 2 'O' levels. We're both now drivers and earn the same money. Who's the fool?

Neither of you. I went to college and had a great time. It expanded my horizons and provided social opportunities. Some of the things I learned have helped me in my personal life and given me a good grounding.

My sister traveled the world and her life is richer for it.

I have friends who have worked their entire lives since they left school.

We all walk a different path. I'd certainly not consider anyone a fool if they chose an academic route in life.

I enjoy my job the money, for me, is inconsequential.

 

[Greaseball3220]

You wouldn't have to be a particle physicist yet I'd say you'd need to have an above average ability to acquire and retain information, I'd wager that there's tons of qualified graduates out there who'd wouldn't last the training due to lack of interest/passion for the role, feeling for rail procedures etc.

Ironically being from a railway family and having known loads of Drivers over the years, (mostly in the 40/50+ age group) they unanimously say that they wouldn't get through today's testing and recruitment and see lots of people now who having got through the testing and looking and sounding the part in the interview fail dismally once they're in the role. Pretty much a reflection on how image orientated and superficial TOC's are.

 

[theageofthetra]

Got a driver with a PHD at my depot and others with scarcely an 'o'level. The job is a great leveller and the variety & character of those you work with are part of what makes 'The Railway' more than just a job.

 

[bramling]

Interesting thread. As a driver currently in training, do you need to have degrees etc. coming out of every orifice? Nope. You need get through the aptitude tests and then convince the wise old heads who interview you that you have what it takes. They are people who have been around the block, don't suffer fools and know exactly what they are looking for.

This is evidenced in the trainees who get through. The driver trainees I have met come from a wide range of educational and professional backgrounds and vary in age. They all have "something" about them. Usually this is down to relevant prior experience, common sense etc rather than academics, but it is noticeable.

I agree it's more about temperament and personality than anything else.

Those who have a more consciencious personality are naturally more suited to the job.

Nothing wrong with having good academic qualifications or a degree though, these certainly may help with some aspects of the role, eg understanding stock training or writing good helpful reports after an incident, etc.

 

[theironroad]

Common sense and appropriate attitude are more useful than a postdoc degree.

There are more drivers with degrees than 10 years ago, but mainly because there are far more people with degrees in the population as a whole. After training, and once you become a productive driver with a few years experience, driving becomes incredibly boring, routine and mundane. With improved and more technical stock reliability, even the challenge of fault finding and rectification is a rare occurrence.

Even without any academic qualifications, there are drivers who have passionate interests outside f work who have brilliant knowledge of their subject areas.

 

[fowler9]

I have a mate who went to the same very good school as me and dropped out after GCSE who is a driver. I got my A Levels and a degree in Mechanical Engineering plus several years experience in safety critical jobs. I have failed every time I have tried to get a job as a driver. I would never say I was more intelligent than my friend although on paper some may be daft enough to think that. He has a better aptitude for it and I am very jealous (In a nice way, I don't think I am better in any way because of my qualifications) I have a good life although I do despise my current job.

 

[Scott M]

I think it's the same as most jobs in the world, in that:

-Initially it requires a certain level of intelligence to learn and understand the things you need to know to perform the job
-But once you know it and gain experience of it, you're on autopilot so no intelligence is required

So for example, a shelf stacker and a surgeon who have been working for 20 years in their respective roles probably use the same level of intelligence as each other on a day to day basis, due to being on autopilot and following processes ingrained in their heads. However could the shelf stacker be a surgeon? No, because whilst they have the intelligence required to pass that initial hurdle of learning and understanding pertaining to being a shelf stacker, they don't have sufficient intelligence to pass that initial hurdle with regards to being a surgeon.

Therefore, applying it to yourself notadriver, who I assume have been a driver for many years, I could take away your intelligence now and you'd probably be able to do your job fine as you know your route inside out in all weathers and have seen it all. However had I taken that intelligence from you at birth, you'd not be able to do the job, as you'd have been unable to complete the training.

On a scale of intelligence needed to pass train driver training, I reckon in the top 40%. I.e. above average but not super-intelligent. To be honest though, there are few jobs out there that require higher than that level of intelligence. However notably with train driving, you also require a higher than average common sense, concentration level and a good temperament. You also likely need to be someone who is willing to learn, and I bet this is one of the key things they look for in interview, as it's a nightmare to train someone who gets frustrated and defensive if you give constructive criticism, or who thinks they know it all and are arrogant when they infact know little. They will want someone who is the human equivalent of a mouldable piece of play dough.

Also, I know many people may use the 'but many drivers don't have degrees' argument, but that isn't an accurate reflection of intelligence. To succeed in something, you need both intelligence and willpower. For example:

-0/10 intelligence, 10/10 willpower = you will fail
-6/10 intelligence, 6/10 willpower = you'd likely succeed

However, the key point is:
-10/10 intelligence, 0/10 willpower = you will fail

This key point explains why some people may come across as 'daft' academically, but 'gifted' in something like mechanics. In reality they are just as intelligent as someone who is gifted academically, they just apply their willpower elsewhere.

So this last point could be applied to a train driver doing a degree, or a person with a degree doing train driver training.

 

[notadriver]

That's an excellent post Scott M. I've never really thought about things in that way. Brilliant.