Ban on rest day work

[Surreytraveller]

Surely RDW is cheaper than the fines for cancelling trains?

Fines probably come out of somebody else's budget, though!
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Overtime payments are outside of a fixed budget. There is an ingrained culture on "the railway" where RDW is expected and widely used.

Rosters are already built with flexibility and sp allowance for training, leave, etc. The casual use of RDW needs to stop and sp turns used to better effect and more efficient planning when it comes to training etc.

Casual use of overtime shouldn't be condoned. But, if there are vacancies, then surely the overtime is coming out of the same fixed budget that would otherwise have been paid to staff that do not exist? But I suppose that if no overtime were paid, and you had a fully staffed establishment, then costs would be easier to control.

Sounds like they are desperately trying to control costs - obviously unable to control them on a day to day basis - so are going for drastic measures.

 

[ComUtoR]

But, if there are vacancies

How do you incentivize those being filled; as you say, RDW is cheaper. There has to be a tipping point where staffing correctly needs to become the norm.

Nobody wants RDW to end rather than those in control of the pennies. ASLEF, irrespective what they say, do not wish it to end. It's a big bargaining chip when they remove RDW and TOC's like Thameslink suffer as they have sundays outside. The union will try and strangle a TOC by removing RDW. When there is no RDW then what have they got to threaten ?

TOC's use it because its cheaper than correct staffing levels so again there is little incentive to fill vacancies.

Passengers are happier as the service runs and their train turns up. train.

Workers love it because some need to additional remuneration and others are just gobblers and living the gravy train

I can assure you that there have been times on my TOC where RDW has gone through the roof due to routes/traction being introduced and you being pulled in for 5hr RDW with 1 trip and even then maybe.

Recently NR paid for a standby turn on our TOC to cover the London Bridge works.

RDW really is used quite casually. Whilst I don't agree with bans, I can understand why this has been done.

 

[A-driver]

The rest day work ban on TLGN does not affect drivers. All other grades have an overtime freeze to save money. They are relying on using managers to boost numbers and moving staff round to other locations. I believe revenue had overtime stopped in September and station staff (ie dispatch) along with depot staff will have overtime stopped from the end of November.

Drivers can still work overtime as they are so desperately short at the moment. They certainly won't get through even a skeleton service in December without driver overtime. Last year was bad enough with huge cancellation lists the weeks before Xmas and that was with drivers working lots of RDW!

The rumour mill has gone round suggesting it's a complete ban but it does exclude the driving grade as its not as easy to cover drivers with managers.

 

[Agent_c]

Not necessarily. No RDW means more staff, which means more sick pay, more annual leave pay, more uniforms, more training, more employer pension payments. And no doubt a load of other costs I haven't thought of. It can be cheaper to pay out overtime than employ adequate numbers of staff.

Less RDW also surely means more cancellations or less trains running. As the service is less attractive or find it works with their schedule at all, fewer use it.

As the costs now need to be split amongst less users, higher prices result.

 

[A-driver]

I wouldn't ban it, I would just want to recruit sufficient staff, including staff contracted to work Sundays, to ensure it was only required in exceptional circumstances.

TOCs don't agree with you there as it would be far more expensive to do that than to pay a premium to an existing skeleton staff to work extra hours or days.

 

[DarloRich]

Ultimately; staff costs are passed to the passenger. No RDW would reduce staff costs. That should equate to a lesser ticket hike in the future. Having a manageable budget and keeping them within costs means that future franchise bids are more favorable and ergo; should benefit the passenger.

yes, that is what SHOULD happen. What does happen...............

 

[A-driver]

Surely RDW is cheaper than the fines for cancelling trains?

It is. But certain companies don't look at the bigger picture. They panic when the overtime bill is through the roof so ban or limit overtime. Then they see the cancellation bill and panic as its so high and the DfT is camping out at head office due to the bad performance so they yell at rosters to do everything possible to cover everything. Rosters start having to use overtime again to cover the work. Then they see the overtime bill and panic so ban overtime...

And it goes round and round like that.

 

[northwichcat]

But certain companies and DfT don't look at the bigger picture.

Added in the bit you missed out.

For clarification Northern wouldn't be allowed to employ the RPIs which STM Security provide because that would make their wage bill higher than DfT would permit. However, DfT are happy for a revenue protection contract to be awarded to a third party on condition that it brings in more lost revenue than it costs.

 

[A-driver]

Added in the bit you missed out.



For clarification Northern wouldn't be allowed to employ the RPIs which STM Security provide because that would make their wage bill higher than DfT would permit. However, DfT are happy for a revenue protection contract to be awarded to a third party on condition that it brings in more lost revenue than it costs.

Thanks for that. Agency staff are certainly on the rise with GTR now. FCC took revenue protection very seriously and made great efforts to cover all revenue duties. GTR take the opposite stance.

 

[Mojo]

Yes, of course they can. If they think they have sufficient staff to cover all duties, then they don't need to pay out for overtime. On the Underground, for example, officially train drivers don't have any overtime unless they are running late, or special working (engineering work or public holiday timetables) causes their rostered duty to be longer than normal.

 

[tony6499]

Ever since I started there has always been a problem with overtime, some staff no matter how much they get paid want to do overtime. Where it gets messy is one period none is needed so all the munchers get annoyed and the next period staff are short so overtime is required and the answer was you didn't want me last month etc.

I've seen managers walk in and declare they would eliminate train crew overtime at their depot and fail miserably, even with over establishment you can't predict events and I doubt that any TOC could ever eliminate RDW unless the whole process of diagrams and rostering for drivers and guards was done completely differently.

 

[Skimble19]

The rest day work ban on TLGN does not affect drivers. All other grades have an overtime freeze to save money. They are relying on using managers to boost numbers and moving staff round to other locations. I believe revenue had overtime stopped in September and station staff (ie dispatch) along with depot staff will have overtime stopped from the end of November.

Drivers can still work overtime as they are so desperately short at the moment. They certainly won't get through even a skeleton service in December without driver overtime. Last year was bad enough with huge cancellation lists the weeks before Xmas and that was with drivers working lots of RDW!

The rumour mill has gone round suggesting it's a complete ban but it does exclude the driving grade as its not as easy to cover drivers with managers.

From GN Station Staff (dispatch) perspective, nobody has told us about this.. It will cause huge problems for them if they stop overtime.. You only need to look at the roster to see how much is being covered by overtime at the moment, and with all the extra stations now requiring dispatch during darkness it would certainly be an odd move.

Thanks for that. Agency staff are certainly on the rise with GTR now. FCC took revenue protection very seriously and made great efforts to cover all revenue duties. GTR take the opposite stance.

Annoyingly there is a lot of agency about at the moment, but not as much as they could have been luckily. Most stations that required dispatch were to be covered by agency but this never really happened and it was just delayed until proper staff could be found. The last few still using agency are being swapped to GTR staff over the next few weeks.

Completely agree about revenue though, the amount of RPIs on trains has dwindled lately..

 

[TDK]

No RDW would reduce staff costs.

Incorrect I am afraid, if there was a RD ban for all TOC's they would need to employ a lot more people and this in turn would hike up the wage bill, the highest expenditure for any company, for instance what an employee is paid can be almost doubled to get a reality on what it actually costs, RD's are there generally to cover training and unexpected sickness. Without RD working where I work I would never had been able to get my ad hoc leave for when I desperately needed it.

 

[ComUtoR]

@TDK this has been discussed many times. We can all agree that the culture has always been to employ less and rely on overtime. That culture has to change.

I'm talking in an ideal situation where there is the correct employment level and well planned rosters.

We have suffered recently with SP turns and due to our new pay deal it blew the budget quite drastically because, as you say, they really didn't plan for the reality. However; after a rather big and important meeting they adjusted the way in which SP turns were allocated and the SP payment was reduced. That change in attitude and working was forced upon them much like this has been but it produced a tangible result.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Incorrect I am afraid, if there was a RD ban for all TOC's they would need to employ a lot more people and this in turn would hike up the wage bill, the highest expenditure for any company, for instance what an employee is paid can be almost doubled to get a reality on what it actually costs, RD's are there generally to cover training and unexpected sickness. Without RD working where I work I would never had been able to get my ad hoc leave for when I desperately needed it.

So why don't you just play the sickness system then? A lot of them do, when leave is declined, they go sick a day or so before they need to have a day off and then have another couple on top. Just come back before the deadline and then repeat as required every 13-15 weeks or so.

Saves on ad hoc days and there's nothing they can do about it.

 

[ComUtoR]

A little bit of some quick logic for those who may have missed something...

A depot establishment of 100 (100% budgeted)
Staff level of 90
10 Drivers short.

You are now relying on overtime and goodwill but as your saving money on staffing costs then your still in a surplus. This is whats happening now and we are forced to rely on overtime to cover the basic day to day.

Now if you have :

A depot establishment of 100 (100% budget)
Staff level of 100
0 shortage

You are no longer reliant on overtime and still within budgets. Training, leave, etc are already covered as you have 100% staffing. There is no increased costs because you will have already budgeted for 100% establishment. The core reason for overtime is the lack of staff.

Before Rich comes back... this is what SHOULD happen. TOC's couldn't organize a proverbial in a proverbial.

 

[greatkingrat]

Now if you have :

A depot establishment of 100 (100% budget)
Staff level of 100
0 shortage

You are no longer reliant on overtime and still within budgets. Training, leave, etc are already covered as you have 100% staffing. There is no increased costs because you will have already budgeted for 100% establishment. The core reason for overtime is the lack of staff.

Even then there is always going to be a need for some overtime. Leave, sickness, training is never going to be evenly spread throughout the year, some days there might be 5 off sick, some days it might be none.

 

[Mojo]

You are now relying on overtime and goodwill but as your saving money on staffing costs then your still in a surplus. This is whats happening now and we are forced to rely on overtime to cover the basic day to day.

<snip>

You are no longer reliant on overtime and still within budgets. Training, leave, etc are already covered as you have 100% staffing. There is no increased costs because you will have already budgeted for 100% establishment. The core reason for overtime is the lack of staff.

In an ideal world, your example makes perfect sense and is what I have always thought. However, it is often the case that the basic staff wages are paid for out of central company funds, whereas overtime comes from the local depot manager's budget. In your example of a depot with an establishment of 100, with 10 vacancies being carried, local management may wish to minimise overtime payments to make their personal performance figures look good, even though the net result to the company is that it is spending less than it otherwise would.

 

[BestWestern]

Ultimately; staff costs are passed to the passenger. No RDW would reduce staff costs. That should equate to a lesser ticket hike in the future. Having a manageable budget and keeping them within costs means that future franchise bids are more favorable and ergo; should benefit the passenger.

No, RDW is generally liked by TOCs because it is cheaper than employing a greater number of staff. I would happily bet that what we have here is an office-bound biro operative with no grasp at all on how the ground level operation actually works, decreeing that RDW shall not be allowed. All it means is that stations will be understaffed, which is both dangerous and highly likely to contribute to delays, and in no way benefits anybody. No savings will be passed on through reduced fare increases because - a) it isn't a big enough sum to make any real difference in that sense, and b) it won't last five minutes, once the delay costs rise due to short manning and the Union gets involved and starts making noises about the obvious safety compromises.

 

[ComUtoR]

Even then there is always going to be a need for some overtime. Leave, sickness, training

We are getting into the grounds of what has been previously discussed. Some much more informed people highlighted that leave, sickness, training etc is already part of the roster and that specific %'s are already allowed for. Ergo, already a factor of the budget.

In an ideal world, your example makes perfect sense and is what I have always thought.

The reality is indeed very different. It needs to shift towards a more realistic model.

However, it is often the case that the basic staff wages are paid for out of central company funds, whereas overtime comes from the local depot manager's budget.

Yep, its all part of the whole budget and individual budgets are managed locally. Your 100% correct on that. To give an example. If my train is delayed and its down to driver error then "operations" swallow that cost. When its down to unit problems the delay goes to "engineering" I previously posted about a standby turn and that was paid for by NR. There is a training budget I believe too. I have been reliably informed that our constant briefs on the London Bridge works are also being paid for by NR. Trainees come under the training budget. I'm not sure at the point in which they come under the depot budget.

In your example of a depot with an establishment of 100, with 10 vacancies being carried, local management may wish to minimise overtime payments to make their personal performance figures look good, even though the net result to the company is that it is spending less than it otherwise would.

KPI's I used to hate those. The reality is that there is an offsetting going on where one depot will be running efficiently and another will be blowing it all on overtime. The KPI's (Key Performance Indicator) are used to keep spending etc in line and to act as a control. If you have a Manager who spends tons on overtime he is not managing his depot correctly. There needs to be a mechanic in which local controls are set. That is the role of the KPI's Sickness is another one. If there is a high level of sickness then it needs to be controlled. Are staff taking the Michael ? If there is an issue then it needs to be identified. If there isn't enough staff to cover and your under establishment then you need to ask why that depot isn't recruiting. The KPI will highlight those areas.

Managers who massage the numbers are bad Managers. Again, its the culture of the railway that needs to change.

No, RDW is generally liked by TOCs because it is cheaper than employing a greater number of staff.

TOC's use it because its cheaper than correct staffing levels so again there is little incentive to fill vacancies.

 

[TDK]

So why don't you just play the sickness system then? A lot of them do, when leave is declined, they go sick a day or so before they need to have a day off and then have another couple on top. Just come back before the deadline and then repeat as required every 13-15 weeks or so.

Saves on ad hoc days and there's nothing they can do about it.

I don't go sick unless I am ill and I don't care what others do to be fair. I get paid to do a job and do it to my best ability and that does not include going sick when I am not ill.

 

[A-driver]

I don't go sick unless I am ill and I don't care what others do to be fair. I get paid to do a job and do it to my best ability and that does not include going sick when I am not ill.

I agree fully. To be fair, it's only a small minority who abuse the system and it does start to catch up on them. They are more unpopular with fellow drivers who get stitched up with their work than management.

 

[Skimble19]

Thinking about it.. With the original poster saying this supposedly will affect GTR staff and (aside from RPIs) there being little evidence so far of any ban.. I wonder if this could be some rather daft retaliation for staff rejecting the pay offer and balloting for strike?

 

[Surreytraveller]

Thinking about it.. With the original poster saying this supposedly will affect GTR staff and (aside from RPIs) there being little evidence so far of any ban.. I wonder if this could be some rather daft retaliation for staff rejecting the pay offer and balloting for strike?

There's no need for the Union to have a ballot, then, if the company is willing to dig its own hole deeper?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

If the company says it's not going to use rest day working it must tell the union in writing and if it then finds it doesn't have enough drivers to cover their commitments then that's their problem and they'll have to bear the financial consequences.

By putting it in writing, it means that they can't then say it was the union doing the dirty. And the union can then produce the letter proving it.

 

[A-driver]

If the company says it's not going to use rest day working it must tell the union in writing and if it then finds it doesn't have enough drivers to cover their commitments then that's their problem and they'll have to bear the financial consequences.

By putting it in writing, it means that they can't then say it was the union doing the dirty. And the union can then produce the letter proving it.

This isn't a driver issue though-they are not considering banning RDW for drivers. They are cutting overtime spending for other grades and relying on moving staff around to more locations when spare and using mangers to cover any shortfall. I'm not sure that there are official rest day agreements for all of the other grades?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Metobusfan]

This isn't a driver issue though-they are not considering banning RDW for drivers. They are cutting overtime spending for other grades and relying on moving staff around to more locations when spare and using mangers to cover any shortfall. I'm not sure that there are official rest day agreements for all of the other grades?

One problem with using management is not all of them are competent in the role of their staff

 

[carriageline]

It's not just TOCs that have this problem, Network Rail is in a very similar position. My place is running with a lot of vacancies, if a RDW ban would to be introduced, panels would be shut for 24 hours.

It's not that they don't want them filled though, it's the fact that even for internals, the entire recruitment process can sometimes take up to a year before you are recruited trained and productive.

Then there's managers unwilling to recruit as the box is due to shut, then all of a sudden it's given another 10 years and you have 50% of your vacancies to recruit for.

Then you have people moving in much faster than you can recruit for.

 

[A-driver]

One problem with using management is not all of them are competent in the role of their staff

Too many unnecessary words in that post. Should read:

"One problem with using management is not all of them are competent".

Seriously though, GTR (and southern before them) have been training a number of managers from other grades and office positions in despatch and guard duties for years.