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New freight flows from Liverpool docks investment

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8A Rail

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If your answer is "I don't know" then what more would there be to add. I did read your response, but I'd like to see if anyone else can answer the question you can't.

There are only so many lines radiating out of the Port, through Liverpool, heading north, east and south. There are only so many paths available on all these lines, both converged and unconverged. Some people on these forums have a remarkable talent for being able to crunch these kinds of data sources and subsequent equations.

I feel sure that there are some on here who can get the answer to an approximation much closer than just "who knows".

My previous message was not directed at you but just in general reading other messages too.

So your question that you are seeking is really relates to beyond the capacity of Docks and the Bootle Branch line which is a different issue all together?

In regards to the L&M line, freight capacity is in theory generally around 2 paths per hour in each direction between Olive Mount Junc and Earlestown. In practice, a little different at the moment but it has never been put to the test though. The other direction via Edge Hill Wapping is totally different and I would like like to know what capacity there is too? I be surprise if there is more than one path per hour crossing over the junctions from the Bootle Branch to Edge Hill Wapping though especially during the day.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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In regards to the L&M line, freight capacity is in theory generally around 2 paths per hour in each direction between Olive Mount Junc and Earlestown. In practice, a little different at the moment but it has never been put to the test though. The other direction via Edge Hill Wapping is totally different and I would like like to know what capacity there is too? I be surprise if there is more than one path per hour crossing over the junctions from the Bootle Branch to Edge Hill Wapping though especially during the day.

There is plenty of freight capacity from Wavertree Jn via Speke/Ditton on the 4-track section which has underused slow lines.
It's just that reaching Wavertree Jn from Tuebrook Sidings is a pain and cuts across the entire layout carrying 15tph into Lime St.
 

Wavertreelad

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There is plenty of freight capacity from Wavertree Jn via Speke/Ditton on the 4-track section which has underused slow lines.
It's just that reaching Wavertree Jn from Tuebrook Sidings is a pain and cuts across the entire layout carrying 15tph into Lime St.

Could one long term solution be to construct a through route through Downhill Sidings to Wavertree Junction? Instead of running trains from the Bootle Branch into Tuebrook Sidings, they could then run into Wapping Sidings on the south side of Edge Hill Station. Whilst this would still require trains to cross both main lines, it would potentially be for a shorter time frame and it would avoid running freight trains on the fast London lines between Edge Hill and Wavertree Junction and make better use of the quadruple track through South Liverpool. Just a thought?
 

mwmbwls

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When the Ironbridge Biomass trains cease to operate - will the northern section of the vacated paths be transferred to Drax bound trains as far as Hartford Junction?
 

8A Rail

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When the Ironbridge Biomass trains cease to operate - will the northern section of the vacated paths be transferred to Drax bound trains as far as Hartford Junction?
Paths are not really vacated as they are built in with slight admendments when the full flow begins mid next year. So you could say "transferred" as you put it.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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GBRF will move upto 3m tonnes pa. at 1600 tonnes per train that equates to 36 trains a week over 52 weeks, which equals 6 loaded trains, 6 days a week. Allowing for Chrismas, weekends, variations in flow etc., I could well envisage days on which 10 loaded trains would move.

The write-up of this project in Rail this week (#787 p16 and particularly p28) is not quite so definite about the volume of traffic from Liverpool to Drax.
It seems to suggest that Drax and the shippers can still choose the port of arrival and therefore the amount of traffic on various rail routes.
The Liverpool route is even described as "an alternative in case of disruption" for east coast ports.
I imagine it would also depend on where the biomass is sourced, Scandinavia or North America.
 

Camden

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The recent shipments came from America, hence a major west coast port being an advantage. It certainly doesn't exist solely as "an alternative", but of course having ports on both east and west coasts is an advantage.

Worth also bearing in mind the physical handling ability of the Liverpool port. Post-panamax, so some ships calling there physically can't go somewhere else (but ships from the east coast ports can go to Liverpool).
 

8A Rail

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The write-up of this project in Rail this week (#787 p16 and particularly p28) is not quite so definite about the volume of traffic from Liverpool to Drax.
It seems to suggest that Drax and the shippers can still choose the port of arrival and therefore the amount of traffic on various rail routes.
The Liverpool route is even described as "an alternative in case of disruption" for east coast ports.
I imagine it would also depend on where the biomass is sourced, Scandinavia or North America.
First rule of thumb - never believe anything that is written in "Rail"! They are known to gloss over things, change things etc even in an article just to make it newsworthy - unfortunately they are no different to some of the "pavement" press. The said "contract" that was signed and confirmed in the public domain, that 3 million tonnes of biomass to Liverpool per annum for 3 years, long with biomass to other UK ports to serve Drax PS. I dont think Peel Holdings (& along with LIPAC who operate the facility) would spend millions on a facility to be used as an "alternative in case of disruption" as it dont make good business sense and surely you must agree on that?

Camden said:
The recent shipments came from America, hence a major west coast port being an advantage. It certainly doesn't exist solely as "an alternative", but of course having ports on both east and west coasts is an advantage.
Worth also bearing in mind the physical handling ability of the Liverpool port. Post-panamax, so some ships calling there physically can't go somewhere else (but ships from the east coast ports can go to Liverpool).

Yes Biomass is coming from America now and for the future too. However, the biomass ships involved will need to use Gladstone Lock from the Mersey and therefore those ships using the port can and will serve other ports in the UK too - nothing will change there as far as I am aware.
 
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Wavertreelad

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The write-up of this project in Rail this week (#787 p16 and particularly p28) is not quite so definite about the volume of traffic from Liverpool to Drax.
It seems to suggest that Drax and the shippers can still choose the port of arrival and therefore the amount of traffic on various rail routes.
The Liverpool route is even described as "an alternative in case of disruption" for east coast ports.
I imagine it would also depend on where the biomass is sourced, Scandinavia or North America.

In a way this is actually partially correct as I will explain below.

The said "contract" that was signed and confirmed in the public domain, that 3 million tonnes of biomass to Liverpool per annum for 3 years, long with biomass to other UK ports to serve Drax PS. I dont think Peel Holdings (& along with LIPAC who operate the facility) would spend millions on a facility to be used as an "alternative in case of disruption" as it dont make good business sense and surely you must agree on that?.

Absolutely, Peel require a guaranteed throughput for the terminal. When the Liverpool Bulk Terminal was built there was I believe a commitment by Powergen to provide X number of ships per annum over a given period of time. When their own power stations started to reduce the volumes they still had to pay the costs for the terminal based on the contracted throughput. As a result they started to handle ships on behalf of other operators initially on an adhoc basis and hence the reason why the terminal became known as Liverpool Bulk Terminal, so it would appear to be independent of Powergen now Eon. The operators of LBT today will very likely be paying Peel the contracted rate whether they handle any ships or not.

The contract(s) between Draw and it's suppliers would specify the quantity within specific time frames as well as such things like the terms of shipment and destination port using Incoterms. This is a globally accepted set of rules that are used for all international movements of freight by all modes of transport. Whilst the rules specify who is responsible for each element of the movement, it is usual practice to also define a name placed of delivery. I would imagine that the shipper or cargo owner, which may not be the same party as the manufacturer or supplier would likely have negotiated their contract(s) on CIF terms and perhaps give Drax an option on various ports. The advantage for shipper selecting CIF terms would be that whilst they would bear the initial chartering costs etc., they would have far greater control the shipments and probably be able to negotiate lower freight rates. So yes the Shipper would be able to choose the port of discharge, but it would have to be approved by Drax and most importantly have suitable facilities to allow the cargo be discharged and handled in accordance with Drax's requirements.

Incoterms are fully explained in this link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incoterms



The recent shipments came from America, hence a major west coast port being an advantage. It certainly doesn't exist solely as "an alternative", but of course having ports on both east and west coasts is an advantage.

Worth also bearing in mind the physical handling ability of the Liverpool port. Post-panamax, so some ships calling there physically can't go somewhere else (but ships from the east coast ports can go to Liverpool).

I think you will find the ships came from the West of North America, near Portland Oregon/Vancouver, so the voyage would entail the ship transiting the Panama Canal so for the moment cannot be larger than Panamax as the locks on the Canal are exactly the same size as Gladstone Lock. Of course next year the Panama Canal will open new locks which will allow larger ships transit the canal. However, this increase will not necessarily result in larger ships being deployed as the loading and discharging ports would similarly have to upgrade which given that there is a global glut of panamax bulkers there is little advantage for all the parties concerned in current market conditions.

Liverpool also has the geographical advantage of being on the West Coast and therefore reduced the sailing time by probably several days, and incidentally outside the EU legislation that requires ship owners to use low sulphur fuels in the English Channel and North Sea which adds considerably to the cost of the fuel used on these Panamax ships.

http://ec.europa.eu/environment/air/transport/ships.htm

Yes Biomass is coming from America now and for the future too. However, the biomass ships involved will need to use Gladstone Lock from the Mersey and therefore those ships using the port can and will serve other ports in the UK too - nothing will change there as far as I am aware.

True, ships berthing on the Tyne and Humber do not have to berth within an enclosed lock system, as is the case in Milford Haven or Hoiyhead were Biomass business could materialise.Ships calling at Bristol and Avonmouth are governed more or less by the same conditions as Liverpool as the locks are Panamax capacity.
 

high camera

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News that UK will close all coal power stations by 2025

Apart from the loss of coal traffic what about flyash traffic to supply the construction industry ?

How are we going to make breeze block and plasterboard ?
 

furnessvale

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News that UK will close all coal power stations by 2025

Apart from the loss of coal traffic what about flyash traffic to supply the construction industry ?

How are we going to make breeze block and plasterboard ?

I would imagine there are mountains of fly ash built over the years.

As for gypsum, we will have to go back to quarrying or imports.
 

8A Rail

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News that UK will close all coal power stations by 2025.
Apart from the loss of coal traffic what about flyash traffic to supply the construction industry ?
How are we going to make breeze block and plasterboard ?

I think this topic should be a new thread as not solely associated with Liverpool Docks. It is a UK issue.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Just to mention that on another thread (TPE Disruption) both Standedge and Rochdale routes were reported closed today (broken rail/landslip respectively).
As a result a couple of eastbound loaded Drax trains were held up around Manchester.
No sign of any attempt to run via Copy Pit or Hope Valley.
 

RichmondCommu

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Just to mention that on another thread (TPE Disruption) both Standedge and Rochdale routes were reported closed today (broken rail/landslip respectively).
As a result a couple of eastbound loaded Drax trains were held up around Manchester.
No sign of any attempt to run via Copy Pit or Hope Valley.

To be honest from what I've read on here there isn't room for any more trains on the Hope Valley route unless they run over night. Hence the reason that there is only a 'stopper' service every two hours. I think loops are planned for the Bamford area but heaven knows when they will be installed.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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There's an article on this flow in the new Rail (#788, p50).
The pictures are nice, but the write-up is in Rail's typically incoherent style.
It has a daft map of the route, which looks as though the trains run via Ince Moss to the WCML.
At the eastern end, it ignores the actual direct L&Y route via Knottingley and sends the trains via Milford, Selby and a non-existent connection off the ECML towards Drax.
Nor does the article mention the empty route back to Liverpool via Chat Moss, or that it is a 60mph working eastbound and 75mph back.
 

Greybeard33

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Nor does the article mention the empty route back to Liverpool via Chat Moss, or that it is a 60mph working eastbound and 75mph back.
Currently the night-time empty returns seem to go via the Chat Moss, while the daytime ones go via the Mid-Cheshire. Presumably it is easier to find daytime paths through Stockport and Edgeley Jn than through Victoria and Ordsall Lane Jn.
 

8A Rail

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Currently the night-time empty returns seem to go via the Chat Moss, while the daytime ones go via the Mid-Cheshire. Presumably it is easier to find daytime paths through Stockport and Edgeley Jn than through Victoria and Ordsall Lane Jn.
No. One of the reasons they go via Mid Cheshire / Stockport and not Victoria is the load (2400 tonnes) and one Class 66 is not able to take it up the bank, needs two Class 66's as a couple of "trials" confirmed.
 

high camera

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Bring back the Victoria bankers !!!??????

I feel quite guilty, last year sold my house which backs onto the CLC line at Cheadle, told buyer we only had a few freight trains a day to rattle the windows, I had no idea of the impending avalanche of biomass and Runcorn waste trains. Ooops!
 
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Greybeard33

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No. One of the reasons they go via Mid Cheshire / Stockport and not Victoria is the load (2400 tonnes) and one Class 66 is not able to take it up the bank, needs two Class 66's as a couple of "trials" confirmed.
My post was referring to the westbound empties, which have no trouble getting down the Miles Platting bank! So when they go the long way round via Stockport and Northwich instead, it must be because there are no paths available through Manchester at that time of day.
 

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With Maersk Line's recent announcement that they are starting their own weekly feeder service from their hub port of Algeciras to Liverpool and CMA-CGM doubling the capacity of the feeder service from Rotterdam and Southampton to Liverpool there appears to be clear interest from the major shipping lines in serving the Port of Liverpool. In fact since the announcement, Maersk is now advertising that it's weekly Algeciras service will be supplemented by taking slots on BG Freight Lines two weekly feeder services to and from Rotterdam. This is all in addition to MSC feeder services from Antwerp which have also seen increased capacity in recent weeks.

This all means the worlds three largest global container carriers are now actively selling the Port of Liverpool as an origin and destination on their global networks. The increasing capacity of all three carriers into the port would appear to be potential vote of confidence in the Liverpool2 terminal which opens later in the year. Whilst no public announcement has yet been made of the carriers using the terminal, it is possible that all three could become users by extending or diverting one or more of their existing services to the new terminal. Whilst Maersk and MSC operate globally together on their core services, both carriers operate their own feeder operations to none base ports such as Liverpool. Extending direct calls to Liverpool would therefore require both carriers to agree to the deal. CMA-CGM on the other hand operates in the Ocean Three alliance which at the moment includes UASC and China Shipping with Hamburg Sud taking slots. However, this alliance like two other alliances, apart from the Maersk/MSC alliance are likely to change make up over the next twelve months as a result of various mergers within the trade, so it's unclear at this stage which other carriers could join CMA-CGM in serving Liverpool with direct calls.

It's against this background that the subject of rail links to the Port of Liverpool was raised in Parliament today as the Liverpool Echo reports.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/bootle-mp-set-demand-answers-11205293

and for all those readers who missed it, here is the official transcript of the events.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commo...ndrailaccess/PortOfLiverpoolRoadAndRailAccess
 

Lankyline

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It's against this background that the subject of rail links to the Port of Liverpool was raised in Parliament today as the Liverpool Echo reports.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/bootle-mp-set-demand-answers-11205293

and for all those readers who missed it, here is the official transcript of the events.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commo...ndrailaccess/PortOfLiverpoolRoadAndRailAccess

I've highlighted the following two parts of the response from the Parliamentary under secretary of state for transport response to the question


"The investment that we are making through the strategic freight network fund includes a number of projects that improve access to the port of Liverpool, three of which are: the doubling of the single line link from the Bootle branch line into the port estate; increasing line speed on the Bootle branch; and improved signalling at the Earlestown West junction. All those schemes are scheduled to be completed by 2018-19 and will double the number of freight paths to the port to 48"

"the biomass required to support more environmentally friendly power generation is already carried by rail from the port of Liverpool to its destination. The four trains per day that currently run are forecast to rise to 10"

My questions are this, does the doubling of the Bootle branch etc solve the problems at the dock end or simply help shift the problem further up the network eg Manchester?
And will the projected rise in Biomass trains bring additional capacity / path issues at the dock?
 

notlob.divad

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My questions are this, does the doubling of the Bootle branch etc solve the problems at the dock end or simply help shift the problem further up the network eg Manchester?

And will the projected rise in Biomass trains bring additional capacity / path issues at the dock?

Good questions, the Bootle Branch is already doubled all the way from Edge Hill to a couple of hundred meters shy of the Dock Estate. The only sections that are single are Olive Mount Chord at the start of it and a few hundred meters across and along Regent Road, I believe it is this second section that they are referring to. However given all the trains have to split into the correct individual sidings for the Bulk / Container / Biomass etc I'm not sure how this has a great impact on increasing the overall capacity.

Improving the signalling at Earlestown West combined with the completion of the 4 tracking at Huyton & Roby will probably have a bigger impact as they are the opportunities for the Freight Trains to get out of the way of fast Passenger services, and given everything has to go via the Olive Mount Cutting to avoid crossing all of the tracks and a reverse at Edge Hill, I think this is the current bottleneck.

With the freight path from the docks emerging at the main junction of all the long distance passenger services into and not utilizing the 4 track down to Garston, there is always going to be a bottleneck on exiting the port so I don't really see any of these as long term solutions to the issue just sticking plasters.
 

8A Rail

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My questions are this, does the doubling of the Bootle branch etc solve the problems at the dock end or simply help shift the problem further up the network eg Manchester?
And will the projected rise in Biomass trains bring additional capacity / path issues at the dock?
In answer to your second question, a straight answer is no! Nothing unusual having 10/12 trains a day out of the docks as it has happened before on a regular basis and that was before the reinstatement of the Olive Mount Chord.

The Bootle Bch line is already a double line and always has been. The only section that is single line (previously was double) is the short section between Derby Road bridge and Regent Road / Strand Road crossing and to be honest that has never really caused any issues of trains in and out of the docks.

However, putting that line back will make life easier along with better signalling on the branch which would allow another train in section on each line but currently you can easily have two freight trains per line now with the present signal arrangements.

The real issues is really nowt to do with the Branch or the Docks as there is currently plenty of capacity for more trains, it is actually access to the L&M line and also if required crossing over to Edge Hill Wapping for any traffic that needs to go that way. Certainly the fourth track at Roby/Huyton when comes on stream will assist
 

6Gman

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Would doubling Edge Lane Jn to Olive Mount Jn be practical? Or useful?
 

Wavertreelad

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Olive Mount Chord was originally double track before it was lifted so I suspect there is no physical barrier to it being redoubled, unless perhaps eventual electrification might cause a clearance issue.

We should also remember that Peel would like to link the scrap metal berths at Canada and Huskisson Docks to the national rail network which would involve restoring the old MDHC dock route north before crossing the closed section of Regent Road to the Bootle Branch. If the existing section is to be doubled then it might also be an opportune moment to put this connection in place.

Incidentally I noticed today that MSC are due to uprating the capacity of the Liverpool/Antwerp feeder from next week with the arrival of the 3000 teu MSC Rafaela on the service.

On the back of my post yesterday, it's also been announced that CMA-CGM will form a new global alliance with COSCO Container Lines, Evergreen Line and Orient Overseas Container Line and in all likelihood APL assuming the regulators in Brussels, Shanghai and Washington approve. This will invariably force further changes in the make up of the CHKYE Alliance into Felixstowe, and G6 Alliance into Southampton as Cosco and Evergreen leave the former, and OOCL leave the latter.

https://www.cma-cgm.com/news/1137/c...s-container-line-to-establish-ocean-alliance-
 

LNW-GW Joint

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As far as I can see, all the loaded biomass trains run into Tuebrook sidings and reverse there to access the L&M.
Eastbound empty trains do use the Olive Mount Chord.
So the Chord gets less use than you might think.

Earlestown West Jn was recently upgraded, and I can't see the potential for any further major improvements.
The Huyton 4th track will certainly help.
 

furnessvale

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As far as I can see, all the loaded biomass trains run into Tuebrook sidings and reverse there to access the L&M.
Eastbound empty trains do use the Olive Mount Chord.
So the Chord gets less use than you might think.

Earlestown West Jn was recently upgraded, and I can't see the potential for any further major improvements.
The Huyton 4th track will certainly help.

Does the biomass have banker from the docks?

if so, the use of Tuebrook makes sense to release the train engine and continue with the banker leading.
 
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