Daily charge for York's walking bus sparks parent anger

[Tetchytyke]

A daily charge that adds up to £200+ per year per child basically undermines the whole point of a walking bus. It's one way of sinking a scheme you can't be bothered to operate anymore, isn't it?

And it's still off topic, but bear in mind that most people who are visiting hospitals are neither sick nor suffer from reduced mobility.

 

[edwin_m]

Note that I included visiting sick people in deserving cases. So yes they would, and yes they should.

Why is visiting a sick person any more deserving of free parking than, say, going to the shops? There are in any case likely to be parking concessions for those that need to visit very frequently and/or those visitors who are themselves infirm.

I see no reason why those working at a site like that shouldn't get free parking if they want it. Many employees do in many industries. The employer charging the employee for parking is a silly transaction; just pay a little less and provide it free.

And provide an incentive for people to use more antisocial and damaging methods of transport, as well as taking spaces that could be used by more deserving people (see above)?

With restricted funding this is why it is as it is, but I would prefer to pay more tax and fund the health service properly - and that includes removing transport hassle for those who are ill, are upset because people are ill, or are the people who dedicate their lives, often at much lower pay than they'd get in other industries, to making sick people better.

If money is badged as health spending then it should be spend on improving health, not used to subsidise lifestyles that actively worsen it.

Incidentally my wife works at a hospital and has to pay for parking, but we accept it because the site is not accessible in a reasonable time by public transport from where we live. This might not be the case had she not been relocated to a different site, but that's another story entirely...

 

[Tetchytyke]

Incidentally my wife works at a hospital and has to pay for parking, but we accept it because the site is not accessible in a reasonable time by public transport from where we live.

My partner has to pay for parking at her hospital, even though she works across different sites which are not connected by public transport and are 20 miles apart. She also had to pay in her last job at a different hospital, where she was primarily doing home visits and having a car was a mandatory part of her job.

That bothers me more.

My employer charges £70 per year for the privilege of a parking permit, which doesn't guarantee you a space but does allow you to park on site. If you get a space the parking charge is then an additional £4.50 per day. Needless to say I get the bus. That charge doesn't actually bother me tbh.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why is visiting a sick person any more deserving of free parking than, say, going to the shops? There are in any case likely to be parking concessions for those that need to visit very frequently and/or those visitors who are themselves infirm.

I'll say to that "the same reason disabled parking, and the use of disabled toilets, is typically free". Those people are at a bad time in their lives; cut them a little slack to use the most convenient mode of transport when dealing with it.

And provide an incentive for people to use more antisocial and damaging methods of transport, as well as taking spaces that could be used by more deserving people (see above)?

Multi storey and underground car parking is the solution at most hospitals where there is room (which there often/usually will be).

Incidentally my wife works at a hospital and has to pay for parking, but we accept it because the site is not accessible in a reasonable time by public transport from where we live. This might not be the case had she not been relocated to a different site, but that's another story entirely...

Employees paying their employer for parking is an utterly insane money-go-round that only benefits accountants.
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She also had to pay in her last job at a different hospital, where she was primarily doing home visits and having a car was a mandatory part of her job.

That is utterly and completely preposterous; surely in that case the parking is a valid business expense (perpetuating an even more insane money-go-around). If I am required to bring my car to work, it is insane that I should be charged *by my employer* to park it on site.

I think if I was told to do something as ridiculous as that, I would start getting very awkward. Are the unions not interested in taking action against such idiocy?

 

[radamfi]

I don't want my employer to give me free parking. Apart from the obvious ethical and environmental objections, I would prefer them to give me the money they would have spent on my wage rather than pay me partly in free parking. I can then choose a more ethical or cheaper mode of transport.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Employees paying their employer for parking is an utterly insane money-go-round that only benefits accountants.

Depends. I don't own a car, so why should my wages be reduced to pay for free car parking that I don't use?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Depends. I don't own a car, so why should my wages be reduced to pay for free car parking that I don't use?

Your wages are not necessarily so reduced; there is no certainty that you would be paid more if the car parking was not provided. It might simply be that the business would take more profit to be distributed to shareholders.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm sure employers who provide free parking will not increase wages if they started charging for it. But I'm sure employers who currently charge for parking would find a way of reducing wages if they had to start providing it for free.

There is a reason why employers charge for parking, and "protecting the environment" or "encouraging modal shift" is not it.

 

[Bayum]

I'm a little perplexed as to what exactly has happened.

On one hand, I agree that if it is a school staff member providing the walking bus service, then a small monetary fee is adequate. There's nothing to stop the service being run by parents who may walk their children to school anyway, who would be more likely to provide the service for free.

I personally think walking buses are a brilliant example of parents working together with/without collaboration with schools to provide a healthier alternative than parking. Pre-learning exercise was all the rage not so long ago - here is something that could be utilised by a majority of local students that would not impact on their learning time. This raises slight issues as there will always be students who drive/use public transport to get to school - but even the latter provides exercise whilst the former provides a lot less.

 

[Busaholic]

I'll say to that "the same reason disabled parking, and the use of disabled toilets, is typically free".

Provision of free parking in public car parks for the severely disabled has been severely compromised by the withdrawal of paper tax discs. Cornwall Council, for instance, required a tax disc displaying 'nil' and 'disabled' to exempt the holder from charges applying to other blue badge holders: as there are no longer such things, all disabled drivers now have to pay unless it's an obviously specially-adapted vehicle. Unintended consequences and all that!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Provision of free parking in public car parks for the severely disabled has been severely compromised by the withdrawal of paper tax discs. Cornwall Council, for instance, required a tax disc displaying 'nil' and 'disabled' to exempt the holder from charges applying to other blue badge holders: as there are no longer such things, all disabled drivers now have to pay unless it's an obviously specially-adapted vehicle. Unintended consequences and all that!

I'm personally happy paying a few quid in tax/slightly higher charges to allow *all* blue badge holders to be exempt from payment. They have a bad enough time of it as it is due to their disability.

OTOH I would make it a criminal offence with a prison sentence (or at least a very hefty fine) to wilfully misuse a blue badge or disabled parking space when not either the disabled driver, or picking up/dropping off the badge holder, even for a short period of time. People who do this are a disgrace.

 

[edwin_m]

I'm personally happy paying a few quid in tax/slightly higher charges to allow *all* blue badge holders to be exempt from payment. They have a bad enough time of it as it is due to their disability.

OTOH I would make it a criminal offence with a prison sentence (or at least a very hefty fine) to wilfully misuse a blue badge or disabled parking space when not either the disabled driver, or picking up/dropping off the badge holder, even for a short period of time. People who do this are a disgrace.

But your're completely happy for non-disabled people, however healthy or affluent, to park for free simply because it's a hospital?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But your're completely happy for non-disabled people, however healthy or affluent, to park for free simply because it's a hospital?

Yes. Most people who wish to park at hospitals are:-

1. Patients. They are sick; they need a bit of slack cutting.
2. People visiting patients. They are upset that someone they know is sick, and are possibly struggling to fit in visits at regulated times around work etc.
3. Medical staff. Mostly underpaid and worked half way to death, and usually doing the job because of the good it brings rather than the money, which is often very poor and the hours long and hard.
4. Contract cleaners. As (3) but even more underpaid.

Why would I begrudge these people somewhere to park their car?

 

[trainophile]

I'm a little perplexed as to what exactly has happened.

On one hand, I agree that if it is a school staff member providing the walking bus service, then a small monetary fee is adequate. There's nothing to stop the service being run by parents who may walk their children to school anyway, who would be more likely to provide the service for free.

I personally think walking buses are a brilliant example of parents working together with/without collaboration with schools to provide a healthier alternative than parking. Pre-learning exercise was all the rage not so long ago - here is something that could be utilised by a majority of local students that would not impact on their learning time. This raises slight issues as there will always be students who drive/use public transport to get to school - but even the latter provides exercise whilst the former provides a lot less.

I wonder whether parents of very young children would be happy with other parents, that they may not know very well, having the responsibility of supervising maybe a dozen or more other small children, all the more so if crossing busy roads is involved.

There are probably insurance implications, or at least Health & Safety rules.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And that is one thing society could do with sorting out. Helping each other has been replaced with tons of paperwork...

 

[trainophile]

At least where it is a paid staff member who is going to the school anyway, they will be reliable. An ad hoc arrangement between various parents is open to let-downs, misunderstandings, "something cropped up", potentially leaving small children waiting unsupervised or at their gate. People are generally more selfish these days anyway, and unless someone is "officially" tasked with doing their turn then it could all go wrong. If the walking parent's own child wakes up ill, are they going to leave him alone in order to take the others to school?

How does the walking bus work? Presumably the children will have to get to a central location before joining it, as it would add miles to their walk if they have to meander down side streets to collect everyone from their homes.

Funnily enough, when we last stayed overnight in York, in a little hotel about a mile from the station, the next morning we went for a walk and saw a group of probably about 20 uniformed primary school children marching along, in the care of one adult male following behind. It was a quiet road so he could watch them all, but I did wonder what would happen if the convoy went into a busier street. I'm not sure what the ratio should be, but going by the school parties I've seen on trains I'd think about one adult for 6-8 kids, possibly more if they are very young.

 

[yorkie]

I wonder whether parents of very young children would be happy with other parents, that they may not know very well, having the responsibility of supervising maybe a dozen or more other small children, all the more so if crossing busy roads is involved.

There are probably insurance implications, or at least Health & Safety rules.

If someone was running it as a business, then yes there would be insurance and H&S implications. But if some parents are walking their children to school, and other parents are allowing their children to walk with them in an ad-hoc arrangement then obviously not.
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At least where it is a paid staff member who is going to the school anyway, they will be reliable. An ad hoc arrangement between various parents is open to let-downs, misunderstandings, "something cropped up", potentially leaving small children waiting unsupervised or at their gate. People are generally more selfish these days anyway, and unless someone is "officially" tasked with doing their turn then it could all go wrong. If the walking parent's own child wakes up ill, are they going to leave him alone in order to take the others to school?

These are good reasons why it's best done officially. But if it becomes to expensive to do it officially, then what choice do they have?

How does the walking bus work? Presumably the children will have to get to a central location before joining it, as it would add miles to their walk if they have to meander down side streets to collect everyone from their homes.

A time was quoted of 40mins. It's quite easy to see the catchment area, and I can't see anywhere more than 20 minutes away from the school. So I believe the time quoted must include quite a bit of zig-zagging.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only one of these I've seen in operation directly is the Swiss one, and it did indeed do quite a lot of zig-zagging. Kids joined it at what looked like a mini version of an actual bus stop with a timetable on it etc.

It was very curious in a few ways - one of which being they kept everyone together by having them hold onto a piece of rope.

As for ratios, I don't know about schools but in Scouting they are 1-6 + 1 for 6-8 year olds, and 1-8 + 1 for 8-10.5 year olds, so I'd imagine similar. At least you're going to need an adult at each of front and rear.

 

[rjholt]

The walking bus was created by comedian Eric Sykes as a joke in 1964.

Anyway, if the parents are really bothered about the cost, they could volunteer to take over the role of the paid teaching staff, maybe on a rota basis. Or do some fundraising to help cover the staff time.

Or just walk their own kids to school like people used to do in the good old days before some parents began to expect everyone else to perform their parental duties for them.

Probably the same parents who are now apalled that holiday companies charge more in school holidays. As if that didn't happen before they had their kids.

Here lies the problem. If there were volunteers, presumably the school wouldn't charge but as everyone expects everything for nothing yet another Daily Mail reader style 'how dare they' rant ensues.

 

[Johnuk123]

Here lies the problem. If there were volunteers, presumably the school wouldn't charge but as everyone expects everything for nothing yet another Daily Mail reader style 'how dare they' rant ensues.

Nearly 50 posts before the Daily Mail is criticised must be some sort of record.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If there were volunteers, presumably the school wouldn't charge

There are costs involved even when using volunteers. DBS checking doesn't come cheap, for one thing.

I don't think people expect "something for nothing", I think people are bemused that a school are charging for something that was set up because it was beneficial to both the school and the children.

 

[Bletchleyite]

DBS checking doesn't come cheap, for one thing.

Other than the small administrative fees that the umbrella organisations charge for processing them, DBS checks are free of charge for volunteers.