Could the 180's be converted to 175's?

[The 4th Rail]

Here's the hypothetical scenario. Hull trains have received their new IEP's leaving their existing class 180's without takers. Would it be theoretically possible for ATW / Future franchise holder to come and take them, in order to convert them to Class 175's along with lengthening their existing units. (similar to the 458/5 conversion).

The reason I ask is because their both part of the Coradia family but I have no technical knowledge of these trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What would be gained by converting them? Why not simply use as is, as indeed Northern did for a bit?

 

[Michael.Y]

What would be gained by converting them? Why not simply use as is, as indeed Northern did for a bit?

Bit of a waste of 125mph trains on tracks that don't go above 100.

 

[The 4th Rail]

I'm not suggesting this as a feasible idea or solution, I just want to know whether it would be technically/mechanically possible?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

This has been suggested before. Assuming it's technically possible (and I have no reason to think it wouldn't be, though like you I'm no expert) I can see the idea having legs as once the 800/801 series comes on stream and MML electrification is done we'll have a surfeit of 125mph-capable diesel units but still a shortage of regional units similar to the 175. Merging the two fleets to form a larger group of 3 and 4-car 100mph units (gearing changes to the 180 vehicles) might make it easier for the owning ROSCO (can't remember which) to find work for them. The boost in capacity would be very welcome on the Marches and North Wales lines.

 

[PHILIPE]

Here's the hypothetical scenario. Hull trains have received their new IEP's leaving their existing class 180's without takers. Would it be theoretically possible for ATW / Future franchise holder to come and take them, in order to convert them to Class 175's along with lengthening their existing units. (similar to the 458/5 conversion).

The reason I ask is because their both part of the Coradia family but I have no technical knowledge of these trains.

175s will only couple to 180s and vice versa apart from themselves but because of their areas of operation

"Never the twain shall meet"

 

[The Planner]

Bit of a waste of 125mph trains on tracks that don't go above 100.

At the risk of opening old wounds and threads, much could be said of XC Voyagers?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

175s will only couple to 180s and vice versa apart from themselves but because of their areas of operation

"Never the twain shall meet"

Though this wasn't the plan when they were initially ordered. 175s were ordered by North Western Trains for Manchester to Blackpool and North Wales Coast services, with 180s ordered by the same TOC for planned London to Blackpool and Holyhead services. When these services were refused permission NWT (now part of FirstGroup) diverted the 180s to its sister TOC, First Great Western. The plan for the 180s was then was to run 10-cars from Paddington to Cardiff with 5 continuing to Swansea. Of course their rather troublesome introduction put paid to that.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Here's the hypothetical scenario. Hull trains have received their new IEP's leaving their existing class 180's without takers. Would it be theoretically possible for ATW / Future franchise holder to come and take them, in order to convert them to Class 175's along with lengthening their existing units. (similar to the 458/5 conversion).

The reason I ask is because their both part of the Coradia family but I have no technical knowledge of these trains.

I believe that Grand Central have already said they will take all of them (to replace their HSTs) when FirstGroup no longer require them. So unless Angel make a deal with someone else, I suspect this is what will happen.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I believe that Grand Central have already said they will take all of them (to replace their HSTs) when FirstGroup no longer require them.

Grand Central will be taking the FGW (sorry, I mean GWR!) units when replaced by IEP, as they will be (or were expected to be!) released sooner.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Grand Central will be taking the FGW units when replaced by IEP, as they will (or were expected to be!) released sooner.

Aren't FGW's and HT's 180s a shared pool?

 

[JN114]

No, 2 separate fleets.

 

[D365]

Aren't FGW's and HT's 180s a shared pool?

Definitely not, but GC are taking over the five GW 180s either way.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

HT have made use of the GW 180s at Weekends though, both to cover for faults and to run 10-car services when Hull City or Hull F.C. or Hull Kingston Rovers have been appearing at Wembley for example.

 

[fgwrich]

One small issue however is engine sizes though, with the 175s using a smaller Cummins - the 180 using the QSK19.

 

[darylyates17]

One small issue however is engine sizes though, with the 175s using a smaller Cummins - the 180 using the QSK19.

You are correct 175s have a 14 litre N14 and the 180s have a 19 litre QSK-19 so i dont think the units could be converted and I dont think Alstom would agree to do it

 

[PHILIPE]

No, 2 separate fleets.

After reading the last post I had a look at ABRail and all the 180s have the same Codes for Depot, Pool etc.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

You are correct 175s have a 14 litre N14 and the 180s have a 19 litre QSK-19 so i dont think the units could be converted and I dont think Alstom would agree to do it

Could the larger engines be de-rated to match the performance of the smaller ones? Of course the total number of vehicles within both fleets includes rather too many driving vehicles anyway, so merging the fleets is unlikely to work. However it may be possible that the Alstom team at Chester depot may be able to get a bit more reliability out of the 180s, and I could see them replacing the loco-hauled sets on Gerald and the North Wales coast...

 

[59CosG95]

After reading the last post I had a look at ABRail and all the 180s have the same Codes for Depot, Pool etc.

Nope-the FirstGroup ones (i.e. GWR, HT) are Old Oak maintained, while the GC ones are Heaton maintained.

 

[craigybagel]

You are correct 175s have a 14 litre N14 and the 180s have a 19 litre QSK-19 so i dont think the units could be converted and I dont think Alstom would agree to do it

Slightly different transmission too. 3 speeds on 180s, 2 on 175s.

Bit of a waste of 125mph trains on tracks that don't go above 100.

Being pedantic, they'd be able to do 110mph between Wilmslow and Crewe. And 125mph if they replaced 175s on the Sunday trip to Birmingham and back via Stafford. Not really worth it though I'll admit.

 

[DarloRich]

Here's the hypothetical scenario. Hull trains have received their new IEP's leaving their existing class 180's without takers. Would it be theoretically possible for ATW / Future franchise holder to come and take them, in order to convert them to Class 175's along with lengthening their existing units. (similar to the 458/5 conversion).

The reason I ask is because their both part of the Coradia family but I have no technical knowledge of these trains.

why bother - they talk to each other so could run in multiple. Seems like a lot of money for no real benefit

 

[craigybagel]

why bother - they talk to each other so could run in multiple

In theory.....it'd be interesting to see what would happen if anyone actually tried.

 

[wensley]

Hull trains have received their new IEP's leaving their existing class 180's without takers.

I'd say that was rather unlikely, given the demand for 125mph rolling stock!

 

[darylyates17]

Could the larger engines be de-rated to match the performance of the smaller ones? Of course the total number of vehicles within both fleets includes rather too many driving vehicles anyway, so merging the fleets is unlikely to work. However it may be possible that the Alstom team at Chester depot may be able to get a bit more reliability out of the 180s, and I could see them replacing the loco-hauled sets on Gerald and the North Wales coast...

ATW did plan to use 180s but didnt due to to the expensive costs of running them so Grand Central (ironically owned by Arriva) ended up getting them but i do think the 180s would be more realible if they were based Alstom's depot at Chester with the 175s as when the 175s were first built they had apailing realiabillty aswell although Alstom managed to sort the issues out.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

ATW did plan to use 180s but didnt due to to the expensive costs of running them but i do think the 180s would be more realible if they were based Alstom's depot at Chester with the 175s

The way things look at the moment, the 180s and 175s could end up under the same management (DB/Arriva), as Arriva owns GC.
This won't happen until 2018 or so, and by then Arriva may not be running the Wales & Borders franchise, but it is a possibility.
If it does, there would be merit in maintaining both fleets in the same place.
FirstGroup won't have any interest in maintaining 180s after IEPs come in on GWR and HT services.

 

[ainsworth74]

ATW did plan to use 180s but didnt due to to the expensive costs of running them but i do think the 180s would be more realible if they were based Alstom's depot at Chester with the 175s

I'm not so sure. Apart from what a certain HT 180, that shall remain nameless, did on Friday Old Oak Common seem to have pretty much sorted out how to keep the GWR and HT 180s working with a good level of reliability.

 

[darylyates17]

I'm not so sure. Apart from what a certain HT 180, that shall remain nameless, did on Friday Old Oak Common seem to have pretty much sorted out how to keep the GWR and HT 180s working with a good level of reliability.

i guess i was wrong then i always thought the 180s were still not great with realiabilty still its nice to hear that they seem to be working well now as i feel that 175/180s are the best DMUs in the country (well i think that anyway)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The way things look at the moment, the 180s and 175s could end up under the same management (DB/Arriva), as Arriva owns GC.
This won't happen until 2018 or so, and by then Arriva may not be running the Wales & Borders franchise, but it is a possibility.
If it does, there would be merit in maintaining both fleets in the same place.
FirstGroup won't have any interest in maintaining 180s after IEPs come in on GWR and HT services.

This dosent surprise me tbh i agree that this would only happen if Arriva keep the Wales & Borders franchise as they do need bigger units as 2 car units on the Manchester-Cardiff at peak times can be full.

 

[northwichcat]

as 2 car units on the Manchester-Cardiff at peak times can be full.

Most Manchester-Cardiff services are apparently now 3 car 175s as a result of the introduction of loco-hauled workings on Manchester-North Wales services.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The way things look at the moment, the 180s and 175s could end up under the same management (DB/Arriva), as Arriva owns GC.
This won't happen until 2018 or so, and by then Arriva may not be running the Wales & Borders franchise, but it is a possibility.
If it does, there would be merit in maintaining both fleets in the same place.
FirstGroup won't have any interest in maintaining 180s after IEPs come in on GWR and HT services.

With regard to the 175s, weren't they procured in a deal that includes the maintenance at Chester? They have of course already changed hands (from FNW to ATW) but continued to be cared for at the Alstom Chester facility despite being moved from North Wales coast services to predominantly Manchester to South Wales routes. It seems reasonable therefore to assume that regardless of whoever wins the next Wales and Borders franchise, the units will continue to operate out of Chester depot.

 

[northwichcat]

With regard to the 175s, weren't they procured in a deal that includes the maintenance at Chester? They have of course already changed hands (from FNW to ATW) but continued to be cared for at the Alstom Chester facility despite being moved from North Wales coast services to predominantly Manchester to South Wales routes. It seems reasonable therefore to assume that regardless of whoever wins the next Wales and Borders franchise, the units will continue to operate out of Chester depot.

With Northern set to start a Chester to Yorkshire service in 2017 and to enhance Mid-Cheshire line services at the same time, it would probably be more logical for the 175s to transfer to Northern than to move to another depot, if the next Wales & Borders franchise proposes the use of something other than 175s on Manchester to Wales services.