My thoughts on why Crossrail should not have been built

[backontrack]

Mod Note: Split from this thread.

OK, I'm going to be brutally honest here:

I don't see the point of Crossrail. It's basically just a second Central Line. I'm sure there were lots of more cost-effective solutions to overcrowding. The money would be spent better up north.

The Large Hadron Collider was cheaper to build than Crossrail, and is longer and cheaper.

So I think that we shouldn't have bothered with Crossrail and should have spent the money on these railway lines.

 

[The Planner]

Interested to know what solutions you would have put forward instead of Crossrail, occasionally having to get to central London for early meetings the crowding is scary and I am not claustrophobic! it isn't even that quiet outside of the peaks.

 

[backontrack]

I'm sure there could have been something more efficient.

 

[306024]

I don't see the point of Crossrail. It's basically just a second Central Line. I'm sure there were lots of more cost-effective solutions to overcrowding. The money would be spent better up north.

According to the Crossrail website 60% of the funding for Crossrail comes from Londoners and London businesses. Nothing to stop businesses up north doing the same.

Looking at the subsidy for Northern perhaps we should close the north instead

I'm sure there could have been something more efficient.

OK, put your business plan on here for us to read.

 

[yorkie]

... It's basically just a second Central Line...

It will relieve overcrowding on other lines, not just the Central Line. It will massively reduce journey times.

It doesn't just duplicate the Central Line; you've obviously not done much research on the subject!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm sure there could have been something more efficient.

Like what?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

OK, put your business plan on here for us to read.

There's not a lot of comedy on the TV today, so I second this idea.

 

[Techniquest]

Fudge load of Christmas on TV so I would entertain the read of a superior plan to CrossRail!

 

[ComUtoR]

Brutally honest.

Crossrail is making me wet with anticipation. Purely from a passenger perspective I am actually excited and can't wait to use it.

The Large Hadron Collider however; doesn't benefit me whatsoever so to me that's an incredible waste of money and resources. That cash could have helped the homeless or helped cure cancer.

"Super-collider? I just met her!" "And then they built the super collider."

 

[Altnabreac]

OK, I'm going to be brutally honest here:

I don't see the point of Crossrail. It's basically just a second Central Line. I'm sure there were lots of more cost-effective solutions to overcrowding. The money would be spent better up north.

The Large Hadron Collider was cheaper to build than Crossrail, and is longer and cheaper.

So I think that we shouldn't have bothered with Crossrail and should have spent the money on these railway lines.

The Large Hadron Collider basically just duplicates the Circle Line but in Geneva so they should have just put some electromagnets at High St Kensington and banged the particles round Central London...

 

[najaB]

The Large Hadron Collider however; doesn't benefit me whatsoever so to me that's an incredible waste of money and resources. That cash could have helped the homeless or helped cure cancer.

I agree, pure particle physics research is a useless. After all, it's not like it's brought anything useful. Except PET and MRI scans. Oh and ion beam cancer treatments. Then I suppose there's X-ray crystallography. Protein analysis with synchrotron light sources...

 

[backontrack]

And yet Crossrail's tunnels are shorter and smaller, but were pricier to build.

It really annoys me how much infrastructure people get in London compared to the north. It really is very frustrating.

 

[ComUtoR]

I guess the sarcasm train failed to call.

kisses

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I agree, pure particle physics research is a useless. After all, it's not like it's brought anything useful. Except PET and MRI scans. Oh and ion beam cancer treatments. Then I suppose there's X-ray crystallography. Protein analysis with synchrotron light sources...

Theoretical physics also gave us all that utterly cack control equipment in a Class 92, so it's not all good. Camshaft controllers and tap changers do have something of a charm.

 

[yorkie]

And yet Crossrail's tunnels are shorter and smaller, but were pricier to build.

This is a daft comparison. Are you able to separate the cost of the tunnels of the running lines, from anything required for the actual stations? Building underground is an incredibly expensive.

It really annoys me how much infrastructure people get in London compared to the north. It really is very frustrating.

Let's not this turn into another North vs South thread. Please...:roll:

You said earlier "I'm sure there could have been something more efficient", so let's hear it!

 

[306024]

It really annoys me how much infrastructure people get in London compared to the north. It really is very frustrating.

Well you'll spend the rest of your life getting really annoyed then. London's population is increasing faster than predicted even when Crossrail was first mooted. Can't see that doing nothing is an option.

Crossrail 2 anyone

 

[Chester1]

I'm sure there could have been something more efficient.

And yet Crossrail's tunnels are shorter and smaller, but were pricier to build.

It really annoys me how much infrastructure people get in London compared to the north. It really is very frustrating.

As a northerner I am looking forward to HS2 reducing journey times between Chester and London. However according to anti HS2 my journey will be allot longer, this is because they delibrately ignore that people who want a faster service will change at Crewe rather than take the direct train with more stops than now. Its a typical example how any infrastructure projects gets allot of ill thought out, NIMBY opposition. HS2 will free up train paths over Stockport viaduct and via the airport. Similiar situation for Leeds and Sheffield. This is before considering the multi billion pound investment in HS3 that is currently being planned. Its important to also remember that Crossrail will be profitable, most projects in the north would not be and are therefore harder to gain funding for.

 

[backontrack]

You said earlier "I'm sure there could have been something more efficient", so let's hear it!

The 'I'm sure' was referring to the fact that someone probably could have thought of something better. It didn't mean that I had.

 

[yorkie]

The 'I'm sure' was referring to the fact that someone probably could have thought of something better. It didn't mean that I had.

Ahh, so you're not sure. Okay.

Clearly Crossrail had to happen. My only criticisms is that it didn't get enough money as we could have done with more platforms at, say, Paddington.

 

[backontrack]

Ahh, so you're not sure. Okay.

Erm...I never said that.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

And yet Crossrail's tunnels are shorter and smaller, but were pricier to build.

It really annoys me how much infrastructure people get in London compared to the north. It really is very frustrating.

Tunnel construction itself is actually quite inexpensive - CrossRail 2013 baseline was £35,000 per metre, it's the fit and finish which is the issue, it's quite clearly going to be more expensive to provide facilities for passengers and electric trains than it is for a simple tunnel with some equipment for a small number of scientists.

 

[telstarbox]

The north needs investment, and it's starting to happen with Lancashire and Transpennine electrification and other projects, but there's no way that investment should come forward instead of Crossrail.

Look at TfL's annual passenger numbers: 20 million at Bond Street, 99 million at Oxford Circus and 37 million at Tottenham Court Road. Dividing this crudely by the number of lines at each station gives 62 million passengers using the Central line at just these three stations - about the same as Manchester Piccadilly (24m), Leeds City (28m) and Liverpool Lime Street (13m) put together and all on a twin track railway.

That's before considering the growth which will be stimulated in Woolwich, Thamesmead, the Docklands and elsewhere, which will help Crossrail to 'pay its way' in additional council tax and business rates.

 

[najaB]

I guess the sarcasm train failed to call.

Oh, it called and I boarded - got a season ticket after all.

 

[TailLight]

Infrastructure in London when directly compared to other places may seem excessive or unfair, but with such a densely populated urban environment it is far far more necessary just to keep everything running relatively smoothly. Perhaps overcrowded pacers or low frequency services may be annoying but it isn't going to make the country collapse.

 

[quantinghome]

The comparison with LHC is completely invalid. The main tunnel was already built decades previously for the old LEP project. LHC reused this and added two rather large caverns for the new detectors.

Crossrail needed building and there was no real alternative. Some significant studies were done looking at running main line trains from Heathrow through the northern part of the circle line, but proved impractical. Once the current round of tube upgrades are complete, there will be no option but new build.

 

[NSEFAN]

I don't see the point of Crossrail. It's basically just a second Central Line. I'm sure there were lots of more cost-effective solutions to overcrowding. The money would be spent better up north.

The Large Hadron Collider was cheaper to build than Crossrail, and is longer and cheaper.

So I think that we shouldn't have bothered with Crossrail and should have spent the money on these railway lines.

I agree with your point about the sheer cost of the project, but this is more of a problem with the UK rail industry in general. Doing any kind of infrastructure work costs £££, which seems to be down the fragmented nature of the industry resulting in duplicated efforts, getting rid of experienced staff and re-learning everything from scratch each time a project gets done. The result is the price of Crossrail, HS2, etc.

If however you're sure that there are better long-term ways to solve overcrowding apart from building new lines, then you should at least suggest something. It's quite common hear words to the effect of "This is unacceptable, They (the government) should do something!", followed by some token suggestion when asked about the solution, like "More trains! Lower fares! Erm... that's it!"

Being the opposition is easy, until one day it's you who gets put on the spot.

It really annoys me how much infrastructure people get in London compared to the north. It really is very frustrating.

Consider this. Would you really want the north to become like the London & South East region? People working depressingly long hours, becoming mindless, insular drones doing the daily hourly commute to the city, never saying hello to the person who has sat opposite in the same seating bay as you for the past 5 years. London commuting sucks the life and enthusiasm out of you, all facilitated by having fast and regular trains towards the city. Be careful what you wish for.

 

[Oswyntail]

It is often stated that Crossrail is an answer to overcrowding (which it is, and I have no problem with that). But it does nothing at address the major underlying problem, that the economy of the South East is growing at an exponential rate that will become unsustainable (if it isn't already). It is argued that this is damaging to the UK as a whole.
In BR days, price hikes were used to choke off demand on too popular services. If Crossrail had not been implemented, in theory employers would have relocated to cheaper, more resource friendly, areas. Because, as has been noted, growth is faster than estimated, this still needs to be done. HS2-5 (and beyond) still seem the longer term way to go.

 

[ash39]

I don't have much to offer to this discussion but does anyone else find it ironic that someone complaining about the lack of investment in the north vs the south has a photo of Kings Cross concourse as their avatar?!

 

[Trog]

If Crossrail had not been implemented, in theory employers would have relocated to cheaper, more resource friendly, areas.

Perhaps in France, Germany or one of the lower tax countries like the Irish Republic?

 

[Techniquest]

Brutally honest.

Crossrail is making me wet with anticipation. Purely from a passenger perspective I am actually excited and can't wait to use it.

If that wasn't sarcasm, instead a genuine comment, I am looking forward to CrossRail too. I'm not "wet with anticipation" mind, which really did read as sarcastic! I'll generally be only using it in off-peak times so as to avoid the huge crowds expected.

Anyway, before ComUtoR declares he was being 100% sarcastic with the above quote too, I would out this out there:

Bond Street, Oxford Circus and Totty Court Road, after CrossRail do you think it will get slightly quieter at these stations, stay about the same or just get worse?

The change to people's commutes will be interesting, to say the least. I am of course not a London area commuter, so it's all academic to me, but it's interesting to look at from an outsider perspective.

[sarcasm]Of course, if we have no room below ground, there's only one solution left. Monorail, monorail, monorail... [/sarcasm]

 

[jopsuk]

OK, I'm going to be brutally honest here:

I don't see the point of Crossrail. It's basically just a second Central Line. I'm sure there were lots of more cost-effective solutions to overcrowding. The money would be spent better up north.

Um, "a second Central line" is entirely the point. The Central line trains cannot be made any longer or any more frequent. Crossrail will help this, but Central line trains will still be packed at peak times AND Crossrail will be similarly packed. Crossrail also creates additional capacity for longer distance Essex commuter trains into Liverpool Street and should reduce crowding on some Southeastern services through London Bridge.